Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mr. Master 11-12-06, 06:32 PM	I've noticed that the spells' DC in 3.5 are lower than 3.0. I know that this is beacuse of the previous rules,that made them too higher,but aren't they too lower now? I mean,what is the max DC that a wizard or a sorcerer can reach?And,on the other hand,what is the max ST for a character? If DCs are now lower,how do 3.5 casters deal with enemies and problems if compared to 3.0 ones? Thank you.:)
Karak_Nechot 11-12-06, 07:20 PM	I've noticed that the spells' DC in 3.5 are lower than 3.0. I know that this is beacuse of the previous rules,that made them too higher,but aren't they too lower now? No. No no no no no no no no no no. Spellcasters still dominate the game at all levels. Save DCs are still abuseable, just not as badly as they were in 3.0. All the change did was bring spellcasting back a step so that noncasters actually have a chance in the game. I mean,what is the max DC that a wizard or a sorcerer can reach?And,on the other hand,what is the max ST for a character? In 3.5, you can easily have DCs in the low to mid 30s. This is opposed to 3.0 with the DCs normally in the low 40s. Saves can potentially be quite high, with good saves in the 30s and 40s. But the poor saves, the saves that most characters will target, tend to not get much higher than the 20s range. Characters are supposed to make their good saves, and spellcasters are supposed to target the poor saves. This was why 3.0 DCs were so insane; you had a good chance to affect someone's good save, and virtually automatically hit the poor save. In 3.5, you are unlikely to hit a character's good save, but are probably going to hit their poor saves. If DCs are now lower,how do 3.5 casters deal with enemies and problems if compared to 3.0 ones? Thank you.:) About the same as before, only casters don't automatically succeed most of the time like they did in 3.0. Basically, the change DOES weaken spellcasters, which was needed, and gives noncasters an actual role in the game.
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-12-06, 07:29 PM	What Karak said. With icing.
Mr. Master 11-13-06, 07:10 PM	In my 3.0 campaign I've created some HR pretty similar to the base 3.5 rules: -Spell Focus gives only a +1 to the DC of a single school's pool of spells -Improved Spell Focus only gives +2 -the powers like those of the archmage that once lifted a spell's DC now affect only those effects connected to the spellcaster's level -Spellcasting Prodigy works as normal in 3.0 Just a question:how can a 3.5 spellcaster reach its max DC?Thanks.
Neutronium_Dragon 11-13-06, 07:13 PM	You'd probably be better off to keep Spell Focus at +2 and just drop the Greater version. The Greater version was considered to be the problem when the revisions were going through (the regular one wasn't), but rather than do the sensible thing and just drop Greater, both got nerfed instead.
smrtgmp 11-13-06, 07:19 PM	While it might be harder to raise your DCs to the same heights, its now a hell of a lot easier to tank your opponents saves.
CryoSilver 11-13-06, 07:27 PM	Boosting save DCs isn't much harder in 3.5 than in 3.0: Spellcasting Prodigy +1 Spell Focus +1 in relevant school Headband of Intellect +1-3 Grey Elf racial adjustment +1 Heighten Spell +x Etc
runestar 11-13-06, 08:23 PM	Spellcasting prodigy no longer boost spell dcs. Tattoo focus: +1dc in specialised school Spell focus/greater: +2 Shadow weave magic: +1 to necro/enchantment/illusion Spell enhancer: +1dc, +2caster lv to next spell cast Boost int. Target weak save Use enervation/limited wish to weaken weak save some more if necessary. Yes, somewhat harder than in 3.0, but not really by much.:P
IceFractal 11-13-06, 11:42 PM	I dunno - I'm not going to deny that spellcasters are powerful, but that doesn't mean their DCs aren't too low. When I hear about high-level spellcaster tactics, the main point seems to be avoiding spells with saving throws. The favored high level spells are things like Gate, Reverse Gravity, and highly metamagiced Orbs or Scorching Rays - all no-save. Doesn't that say that possibly spell DCs are just too low, if most casters avoid them like the plague? What it seems like: 3.0 - Average spellcaster has reasonable DCs, DC-specialists have uber DCs. 3.5 - Average spellcaster has ****-poor DCs, DC-specialists have reasonable DCs. Which is no fun for the generalist Wizard that wants to have some options.
Manic Man 11-14-06, 05:10 AM	Base DC +10 base +3 stat enhancement +4 base casting stat +5 level and inherent +2 spell focus/greater =DC 24 + spell level Worst save of a character, eg fighter's will save +6 base +1 stat +5 resistance +1 luck (luckstone) =+13 Chance of failure 9th level spell = 95% 8th level spell = 90% 7th level spell = 85% 6th level spell = 80% 5th level spell = 75% 4th level spell = 70% 3rd level spell = 65% 2nd level spell = 60% 1st level spell = 55% So a charm person vs a 20th level fighter works half the time, a wizard gets petrified 80% of the time. This is barring protections, feats, PrCs etc. for more fun, +1 Primitive caster +2 cold focus/greater =DC 36 laugh while casting frostfell So save DCs are too low?
runestar 11-14-06, 05:13 AM	At higher lvs, you should be looking towards absolute immunity rather than boosting your saves...:P
Manic Man 11-14-06, 05:16 AM	The favored high level spells are things like Gate, Reverse Gravity, and highly metamagiced Orbs or Scorching Rays - all no-save. Doesn't that say that possibly spell DCs are just too low, if most casters avoid them like the plague? Huh? Reverse Gravity is a poor choice for 7th level attacking. Orbs and rays are used for the SR: No qualities, such as facing golems. Gate is broken which is why its so popular, though the candle of invocation works better and cheaper. Stone to flesh, frostfell, Otiluke's resilent or telekinetic sphere. These are more useful as attack spells. But currently using touch of idiocy, enervation, etc are the favored attack spells because bringing a score to 0 means pretty much goodbye to the monster. and every monster has 1 low score (dex for large creatures, int for animals/vermin, strength for arcane casters, etc)
Manic Man 11-14-06, 05:19 AM	At higher lvs, you should be looking towards absolute immunity rather than boosting your saves...:P Yeah, mind blank pretty much covers mental effects. Death ward helps vs the more useless IMO, kill spells like PW Kill. However working on concert with someone casting disjunction (rogue with a scroll works wonders) will still ensure you get through. Indomitable Will would be great if the pre reqs were not so ttroublesome.
runestar 11-14-06, 05:31 AM	Yeah, mind blank pretty much covers mental effects. Death ward helps vs the more useless IMO, kill spells like PW Kill. I think mindblank blocks out power word spells as well, since they now have the compulsion descriptor. Death ward takes care of other popular instant-kill spells. So combat will have to be initiated with a greater dispelling just in case.:)
IceFractal 11-14-06, 05:55 AM	This is a dubious assumption I often see in spell DC discussions - that you can automatically target an opponent's weak save with a school of magic for which you have Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus. Now exactly what school would that be? Uberation? To have spells that target all three saves at your highest level requires more than one school, maybe three. That's six feats! Even if you can do it with two schools that's four feats. I think that if we can assume the caster spent that many feats, we can assume that their target spent at least one feat boosting their weakest save, which cancels out the GSF bonus. This is another factor - the save DCs for your highest spell slots may be decent, but what about the lower-level ones? You can't rely only on your highest level spells if you have more than one battle a day. Also, I note that your example caster has starting Int 18, spent all level-boosts on Int, and got a +5 Tome of Int, or 5 wishes. This is by no means impossible. However, given that, the example target could really have more than 12 in their save stat. Re: Reverse Gravity - when I've seen it used, it's for forced movement through other effects such as Prismatic Wall and Gate, not alone.
runestar 11-14-06, 08:29 AM	This is a dubious assumption I often see in spell DC discussions - that you can automatically target an opponent's weak save with a school of magic for which you have Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus. Now exactly what school would that be? Uberation? What I meant is that you should not hesitate to target your opponent's weak save with a spell you do not have spell focus in, when it would be advantageous to do so. Some people, having spent so much effort in boosting the dcs of say, necromancy spells, sometimes make the mistake of wanting to use it in exclusion to other spells just to get their money's worth, even if it means having to force through a giant's uber fort saves...:P And memorise a good mix of spells which target all 3 saves as well.:) And don't forget the flip-side of safe boosting - save debuffing, which can be more versatile. Besides, if you plan on taking the archmage prc, you will need spell focus in 2 schools anyways. Shadow weave magic grants +1dc to necro/illusion/enchantment spells, so that's a +2dc to necro and enchantment spells, good to cover fort and will saves at least.:)
angryman 11-14-06, 09:25 AM	Also, don't assume that just because a class has a good save, doesn't mean you shouldn't attack them with that kind of spell. * Fighters & monks don't always have huge con, compared to a barbarian. (who benefits from rage) * Arcanists don't always have huge wis, since it's not a casting stat for them. I don't attack a rogue with a ref save, a paladin with a fort save (or any if I can help it), a monk, cleric or druid with a will save. Any nasty spell is worth memorising at least twice. (disintegrate, destruction, harm, blashpemy et al)
DungeonMaster 11-14-06, 09:47 AM	I've noticed that the spells' DC in 3.5 are lower than 3.0. If DCs are now lower,how do 3.5 casters deal with enemies and problems if compared to 3.0 ones? There is no difference whatsoever between the core-rules in terms of DC between editions. It is easier to acquire much higher caster level in 3.5 core rules because of the inclusion of core-rules orange ioun stone and core prestige classes like archmage. Spell DC isn't everything that's relevant, most important are monster saves. In general 3.5 monsters have higher saves, though 3rd edition monsters are tougher overall against casters. Things like rakshasha spell immunity, golem magic immunity, resistances, were nerfed in favor of generally higher saves. The highest possible PC save was increased by 2 points in 3.5 core vs. 3rd edition core rules by the inclusion of the greater heroism spell, which gives +2 morale bonus above and beyond anything available in core 3rd edition. The trend I've noticed on the boards is towards low-level no-save, no SR spells in 3.5. Power-word pain, shivering touch, orbs and company. Albeit if such (broken) spells existed in 3rd edition they would be likewise abused. In non-core rules 3.5 can generally be described as "caster level crazy" and 3rd edition as "DC crazy". You can reach ridiculous heights of caster level in 3.5, and ridiculous DCs in 3.5. The net result is SR is worthless in 3.5 non-core and critical in 3rd edition. Neither is balanced.
angryman 11-14-06, 09:52 AM	I'm a fan on high-DC save-or-die effects myself. (giving them, not recieving)
DungeonMaster 11-14-06, 10:10 AM	Worst save of a character, eg fighter's will save +6 base +1 stat +5 resistance +1 luck (luckstone) =+13 A level 20 fighter will not simply strap on a cloak and a luckstone for his saving throws. There's no reason with his amount of wealth to not have an enhancement bonus of +3. Furthermore the pale green ioun stone is also a given, so another +1 competence. The fighter is likewise incompetent if he doesn't take as one of his many many feats iron will, +2. There's no reason as well to not have a cheap +1 or even +2 bonus due to inherent wishes/tomes. Let's say he's a tightwad and a newbie and give him a +1. That makes his base "sitting around twittling my thumbs" will save +20. If he's a dwarf, +22. There are plenty ways to push this save much much higher with magic, multiclassing and temporary effects. Even just two active effects, protection from spells and greater heroism, boost this save by +7.
angryman 11-14-06, 10:34 AM	A level 20 fighter will not simply strap on a cloak and a luckstone for his saving throws. There's no reason with his amount of wealth to not have an enhancement bonus of +3. Furthermore the pale green ioun stone is also a given, so another +1 competence. The fighter is likewise incompetent if he doesn't take as one of his many many feats iron will, +2. There's no reason as well to not have a cheap +1 or even +2 bonus due to inherent wishes/tomes. Let's say he's a tightwad and a newbie and give him a +1. That makes his base "sitting around twittling my thumbs" will save +20. If he's a dwarf, +22. There are plenty ways to push this save much much higher with magic, multiclassing and temporary effects. Even just two active effects, protection from spells and greater heroism, boost this save by +7. That upgrades the fighter to "trivially inconvenient" to kill for a wizard, as opposed to a "sure-kill". This kind of gentleman is asking for a forcecage, if you ask me. Or a reverse gravity pinata.
Manic Man 11-14-06, 10:36 AM	There's no reason with his amount of wealth to not have an enhancement bonus of +3. Furthermore the pale green ioun stone is also a given, so another +1 competence. The fighter is likewise incompetent if he doesn't take as one of his many many feats iron will, +2. There's no reason as well to not have a cheap +1 or even +2 bonus due to inherent wishes/tomes. Let's say he's a tightwad and a newbie and give him a +1. That makes his base "sitting around twittling my thumbs" will save +20. If he's a dwarf, +22. There are plenty ways to push this save much much higher with magic, multiclassing and temporary effects. Even just two active effects, protection from spells and greater heroism, boost this save by +7. Fighter 20 (760k) 200k weapon (400k if TWF) 100k armor 50k shield 144k +3 bonus (Str/Wis/Dex/Con) 110k weak saves x 2 +1 bonus (+1 bonus = +2 inherent = 55k) 30k +1 competence bonus ioun stone 25k +5 resistance cloak 10k +1 luck Total: 619k Left: 101k Saves = +18 AC= 26 You now have 101k for flight/teleportation/healing/additional AC/whatever. If you have played a fighter before, you would have known that there are a lot of feats with higher priority than Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes. This is not even going into MONSTERS who unfortunately do not have so much money to buy nice stuff.
Manic Man 11-14-06, 10:51 AM	This is a dubious assumption I often see in spell DC discussions - that you can automatically target an opponent's weak save with a school of magic for which you have Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus. Now exactly what school would that be? Uberation?. No, transmutation. This is the school of fort saves which is the weak save of most of those that can kill you in 1 round (insta-kill casters). Those with weak will saves are normally melee types, whether monsters or characters. When you have taken down these as your priority targets, then you have the time to go for the will save types. Even at 70% chance of success per try, 2 tries means a 91% chance you have hit. This is another factor - the save DCs for your highest spell slots may be decent, but what about the lower-level ones? You can't rely only on your highest level spells if you have more than one battle a day. At level 20, spells from 6th to 9th level are still effective as there is only a 15% success rate reduction Also, I note that your example caster has starting Int 18, spent all level-boosts on Int, and got a +5 Tome of Int, or 5 wishes. This is by no means impossible. However, given that, the example target could really have more than 12 in their save stat. Sure but in this case he has conflicting priorities. Attack vs Defense. Good in one means sacrifice in the other. Casters bypass this through using their spells to temporarily boost themselves in defense wise. Also consider the saying that the best defense is a good offense. Moreso in D&D where a monster with 1 hp is still at full attacking power.
DungeonMaster 11-15-06, 06:20 PM	Fighter 20 (760k) 200k weapon (400k if TWF) 100k armor 50k shield 144k +3 bonus (Str/Wis/Dex/Con) 110k weak saves x 2 +1 bonus (+1 bonus = +2 inherent = 55k) 30k +1 competence bonus ioun stone 25k +5 resistance cloak 10k +1 luck Total: 619k Left: 101k 200k for a single weapon is too much in my experience, and 400k for 2 +10 weapons is way too much, if we're talking about designing a fighter from the ground up. Weapons break, get dissolved, disjoined and a whole host of bad things railed upon them. The most I've ever seen someone spend is 100k on a single weapon, and really a +7 equivalent is more than enough. Specific weapons are generally much favored over shopping list ones. You can get a life drinker axe and a rapier of puncturing for little under 100k. At the very high levels survival is everything, especially with the menace that disjunction presents. Your weapon is generally secondary to your shield & armor and equipment that keeps you alive. I'm not sure what your AC you're quoting is? AC 26 is suicide at level 20. The base minimum I suggest for a level 20 fighter is AC 40. +5 tower shield and mithral full plate armor is only 50k and can provide 10 (base) +8 (armor) +4 (shield)+10 (enhancement) +3 dex = 35 AC. A ring of protection +5, 50k, is a given, it's your touch AC. That's AC 40 for ~100k. Realistically expertise and natural armor bonuses should push this bare minimum much higher, into the 50s. You should basically never get hit except on natural 20's. This is not even going into MONSTERS who unfortunately do not have so much money to buy nice stuff. Agreed. The fate of the NPC monster is typically pre-determined. However I disagree that fighters should forsake iron will. By level 9 you should have it. By 15th level you should have all 3 save-based feats. No fighter should be without expertise or dodge either, again touch-AC. If you don't, you're in for trouble.
DungeonMaster 11-15-06, 06:36 PM	That upgrades the fighter to "trivially inconvenient" to kill for a wizard, as opposed to a "sure-kill". This kind of gentleman is asking for a forcecage, if you ask me. Or a reverse gravity pinata. No, the simple tricks won't work against an experienced fighter. Potions are dirty cheap at high levels and he can be expected to have one of just about all of them. Forcecage with bars is defeated by a simple potion of gaseous form. Without bars you need to dimensionally anchor him against his cape of the mountebank. Reverse gravity is defeated by fly (which you really should expect). You need combinations of spells and a fair deal of luck to put a high level fighter PC down for the count. They're really very tough.
TheCobra 11-15-06, 07:22 PM	Eh, shapechange and transformation alone allow a 20th-level wizard to beat a 20th-level fighter at his own game. Of course, unless dimensional anchor is used, either side should be able to flee with some teleport effect. Save-or-die spells can still be very good in 3.5. There are still a few solid ways to boost DC. For example, four levels of Fatespinner cost an arcane caster nothing and give +4 DC once per day. The 5th-level ability nearly assure a failed save, but costs a caster level. Limited wish is probably the most effective way to assure your save-or-die spell gets the job done. Giving the victim a few negative levels also never hurts.
DungeonMaster 11-15-06, 08:12 PM	Eh, shapechange and transformation alone allow a 20th-level wizard to beat a 20th-level fighter at his own game. Nope. He'll laugh at you, mount his pegasus and hit you with a ride-by-attack for triple damage using a lance. You won't even get an attack of opportunity. The best you'll get is a plain attack at plain damage when you charge after him. He'll be doing triple damage every pass. Unless you pick up a mount and have the feats, he'll win, time and time again. If he's really mean he'll use mounted archery. Besides, you're going to DIE if you get within full-attack of a 20th level fighter. The life-drinker will put you -8 levels below on a full attack + a bucket of d12 damage and if he thinks he's going to miss on his least attacks he'll using the rapier of puncturing to deal straight con damage. :)
TheCobra 11-15-06, 08:47 PM	You won't even get an attack of opportunity. That depends entirely on what shape the wizard changed into, now doesn't it? Anyways, all this flying mounted combat stuff would do, at best, is make the a wizard spend a few more buff spells to get his AC up so high that the fighter has to roll a 20 to hit him. It's easy to shift into a form with a base AC of 40. Greater mage armor, spiderskin, and shield bump that up to 55. Factor in AC boosting items and I doubt the fight will ever hit him. A 20th-level fighter with +40 to hit is doing rather well. And that's not even getting into spells that grant miss chance and such. he'll using the rapier of puncturing to deal straight con damage. Not against a form immune to critical hits he won't. Perhaps there are some fighter builds (and some items) that could give a shapechanged wizard trouble in melee, but the wizard doesn't need to be at all twinked to use shapechange to match your average fighter. For example, look NPCs in the DMG. The wizard shapechanged into a pit fiend would be a more challenging CR 20 than the fighter.
DungeonMaster 11-15-06, 09:52 PM	That depends entirely on what shape the wizard changed into, now doesn't it? No, ride-by-attack negates your attack of opportunity, regardless of what form you're in. You're using non-core spells. The fighter can easily reach AC 50 using core-only items and feats. If you go non-core then tons of broken garbage can be added. A 20th-level fighter with +40 to hit is doing rather well. +40 without active magic is a little harder to reach in archery, at least in 3.5. It's easy to do in 3rd edition. +20 base, +5 arrow, +5 bow, reasonable starting dex say 14, +3 enhancement gloves, +1 weapon focus, +2 bracers of archery, +1 ioun stone. In 3.5... hmmm... if he's a crack shot elven archer he can do it readily. +20 base, +5 bow, starting dex 20, +3 enhancement gloves of dexterity, +2 levels dex, +2 weapon focus and greater , +2 bracers of archery, +1 ioun stone, that's +40 without using inherent bonuses to dexterity. Add in a very expensive +5 manual of dexterity and he's at +43 to hit. So you're not safe at AC 55. And I agree about the NPCs. The NPC fighter does not get enough of a discount on gear to be competent. NPCs in general don't get any love from 3rd edition. But we're getting far off topic now... if you want to continue the discussion open up another thread. :P
angryman 11-15-06, 09:59 PM	No, the simple tricks won't work against an experienced fighter. Potions are dirty cheap at high levels and he can be expected to have one of just about all of them. Forcecage with bars is defeated by a simple potion of gaseous form. Without bars you need to dimensionally anchor him against his cape of the mountebank. Reverse gravity is defeated by fly (which you really should expect). You need combinations of spells and a fair deal of luck to put a high level fighter PC down for the count. They're really very tough. I've never seen anyone with a potion of gaseous form ever. Of course if I say, "The wizard does this", you are likely to say, "Which is countered by that." However, I WILL have forcecage, nobody is LIKELY to have a potion of gaseous form, not that it's not a good idea. I'd like to fight a decent warrior, but they usually get their asses handed to them by me, even if they're PCs. For example, if I'm flying & invisible (standard stuff, I expect a competent warrior to be able to fly & maybe see invisible), a warrior activates his boots and flies up. I dispel the boots easily (caster level 5 item, I believe) and he now cannot attack me in melee. If he has a flying mount, I'd likely disintegrate/finger of death/fear/baleful polymorph IT, since your fighter is shining like the sun from magic items.
runestar 11-15-06, 10:19 PM	Don't forget that the party mage can always cast protection from spells on the whole party prior to combat.:) This is another factor - the save DCs for your highest spell slots may be decent, but what about the lower-level ones? You can't rely only on your highest level spells if you have more than one battle a day. Lower lv will be debuff/support/battlefield control spells which augment the party. Have to leave something for the party fighters to do, right?:P
ravenshrike 11-15-06, 10:36 PM	+40 without active magic is a little harder to reach in archery, at least in 3.5. It's easy to do in 3rd edition. +20 base, +5 arrow, +5 bow, reasonable starting dex say 14, +3 enhancement gloves, +1 weapon focus, +2 bracers of archery, +1 ioun stone. In 3.5... hmmm... if he's a crack shot elven archer he can do it readily. +20 base, +5 bow, starting dex 20, +3 enhancement gloves of dexterity, +2 levels dex, +2 weapon focus and greater , +2 bracers of archery, +1 ioun stone, that's +40 without using inherent bonuses to dexterity. Add in a very expensive +5 manual of dexterity and he's at +43 to hit. So you're not safe at AC 55. Entropic warding, Blur, and Mirror image, or greater mirror imiage if using SC. Archer kill threat negligible before icing him.
runestar 11-15-06, 10:43 PM	Or just raise a windwall...:P
Mr. Master 11-16-06, 01:13 PM	X Neutronium Dragon: You're right,things now work better with only Spell Focus at +2 and Epic Spell Focus at +4. x runestar: In fact,the wizard in my party still tries to solve everything with his Invocation spells and doesn't even consider the powerful Ench or Ill schools,when facing melee monsters.I should take care of him... x Dungeon Master: Well,probably the best thing should be a mix of the two core rules best options. I mean,I play with 3.0 but with the use of some house rules to keep DCs a bit lower than they should be,well,things would be better. In my campaign,without any "class boostering DCs powers" and without Improved Spell Focus, the game now works better (even if my wizard would prefer to keep the 3.0 core rules,since he's an Invocation spells' lover).
Deathstalker 11-16-06, 03:02 PM	Personally, I think lowering dc's was a bad idea. I think, from what I've seen in the game, that the problem isn't with dc's as much as it is with saving throws. The primary goal of most arcane spell casters is to get their dc's as high as possible because at high level monsters have ridiculous saving throws because of stats that are so high that few players can ever really hope to match them, and hit dice that are equally high. If you throw in all of the defensive equipment/class levels/templates/whatever that dm's seem to like throwing on monsters these days, trying to get a monster to fail a save is more difficult than you might think. When you throw in spell resistance, it gets even more difficult. The problem with this is that non-monster npc's and players don't have the same advantages that monsters do, so when the monster turns around and throws the same spell at you, you're far more likely to fail the save, likewise when an optimized enemy spellcaster comes after you. This is especially bad because of a large number of spells that can completely eliminate a character from the battlefield on a failed save. Phantasmal Killer, Dominate person, even hold person (sets up for the coup de grace), finger of death, destruction, flesh to stone, implosion, power word stun and kill. All of these spells are potential killers on a failed save, which can make life easier for the players, but harder for the gm, or consequently, harder for the players when they're on the receiving end. This is why most players at high level turn to things like enervate/energy drain and spells that have no save/SR. I really think the game would be better off if spells that had absolute effects (those that grant immunity/instant kill/remove a character instantly from the game) just weren't around. Then there wouldn't need to be such high saving throws, neither would there need to be such low dc's. It's very hard not to play an arcane spell caster and have them be successful without doing one of several things: 1)completely maxing out their dc's at every opportunity, 2)playing a support character buff/debuff and battlefield control 3)using spells that have no save and/or no sr While this is mechanically a sound practice, it kind of eliminates the things that you can do with characters because at high level, it can be very difficult to make your concept work if it doesn't follow the above guide lines. For example, try playing an illusionist or an enchanter at high level. Many outsiders either come with true seeing as a natural ability or spell like ability, which nixes most of the school of illusion. At high level if you're playing an enchanter, many things are completely immune to mind affecting spells, or can become immune to mind affecting spells (undead, plants, constructs, plants that are undead constructs, for example, can be an especially difficult enemy : ) ) I realize that this is something of a rambling rant, but the short of it is that I think magic needs a severe overhaul and simplification. The saving throws/dc/spell resistance thing isn't working as well as it did when 3.0 first came out and there were less alternate sourcebooks and less than half a million spells for an arcane spell caster to choose from. There's something fundamentally wrong with the magic system that needs looking at when half the people I know say that arcane spell casters are woefully underpowered while the other half say that they're the only way to go at high levels...of course, there's the other half that say there's no point in playing anything that's not a cleric or druid...
Mr. Master 11-16-06, 06:50 PM	Well,I think that is perfectly normal for a spellcaster to improve his power every time he can.Since all classes do this,why can't he do the same? Moreover,if the problem is just "spellcasters either use no st spells/spellcasters maximize their spells DCs/spellcasters simply give support",well...what's the problem?Is the thing spellcasters are there for.To either solve the problems with brute power or to give support to the other characters.What's the problem? As for the absolute effects,they give some taste to the game and,since they can be used by both the monsters/NPCs and the PCs,they are (should be) balanced.Since this is a RPG and since in real life there are many absolute situations (you fall from an airplane,your car explodes,etc.),why shouldn't spellcasters use absolute spells? The fact is that the game is becoming more and more complicated,with tons of manuals,all of which full of "new feats,new prestige classes,new skills".More manuals = more rules = more problems.However,you can simply avoid to buy and use them,if that's the problem. I used to play with only the 3 core manuals,the 5 class manuals and the Forgotten Realms corebook and things were perfect.The problems came with the other faerunian manuals,expecially Magic of Faerun. Or you can simply go back to the previous rules.I still play with 3.0 and,apart from some HR,I find that it works fine.The problem is the faerunian setting,which gives too much importance to magic,but you can balance the situation with a bit of work.
TheCobra 11-16-06, 09:15 PM	No, ride-by-attack negates your attack of opportunity, regardless of what form you're in. Yeah. Sorry about that. The mount really has very little chance of surviving more than a round, though. You're using non-core spells. Well, core only you can still get up to 48 AC with three spells (shapechange, shield, and mage armor. Throw in a ring of protection +5 and that's 53 AC. All for under 60k. 58 AC would only cost another 50k (amulet of natural armor +5). Add in the +4 DEX from transformation and you've got 60 AC. Throw in greater invisibility and/or displacement, and the fighter's job gets even tougher. If that's not enough, you can use limited wish to throw in cleric spells that boost AC. Or spend a few more gp for better items. However, I WILL have forcecage, nobody is LIKELY to have a potion of gaseous form, not that it's not a good idea. Huh. All the high-level fighters and such that I make at least have teleportation items. One forcecage wouldn't get the job done. Of course, I DM, so that makes it a little different. None of the fighter-type PCs in the campaigns I'm running now have ways to escape forcecage, but they're a little too low level to have to worry about it. Personally, I think lowering dc's was a bad idea. I don't know. I think DCs are pretty balanced right now. Even using only the core, a 20th-level caster a decent chance (about one in three) of taking out a pit fiend or balor with a single 9th-level save-or-die spell. 31
DungeonMaster 11-17-06, 12:23 AM	I used to play with only the 3 core manuals,the 5 class manuals and the Forgotten Realms corebook and things were perfect. If that's your happy medium then by all means, continue! The problems came with the other faerunian manuals,expecially Magic of Faerun. I thought the class books were worse than magic of Faerun personally.
DungeonMaster 11-17-06, 12:46 AM	Yeah. Sorry about that. The mount really has very little chance of surviving more than a round, though. Sure it does! He can use any mount, stone horses, ebon fly, or the ridiculously powerful obsidian steed. Taking out his mount isn't worthwhile, you've just lost a round of actions. Well, core only you can still get up to 48 AC with three spells (shapechange, shield, and mage armor. Throw in a ring of protection +5 and that's 53 AC. All for under 60k. 58 AC would only cost another 50k (amulet of natural armor +5). Shield and mage armor are bypassed with relatively cheap and simple arrows of brilliant energy, that can be made seeking no less to get rid of any concealement spells. Your amulet doesn't stack with the natural armor bonus given from your shapechange spell. Your ring likely can't be worn in dragon form, by core rules at least it would meld into you. Invisibility cuts to the fighter's advantage. As soon as you engage you're hit with cheap dust of appearance, or his intelligent weapon lights you up with faerie fire. By that point your transformation has it that you can't cast spells and so you're at the mercy of simple dust of disappearance. He then gets +2 to hit you and you lose your Dex modifier to AC. You're dead. :duel: I've seen all the tricks and I've heard all the banter about fighters being a terrible class. The reality is intelligently played fighters are death machines, at any level, and I've seen it from the DM's chair quite often. They're even better when coupled with spellcasters of course, and spellstoring items. If you guys want to discuss it more we should probably create a thread in the classes forum.
DungeonMaster 11-17-06, 01:01 AM	double post
TheCobra 11-17-06, 02:45 AM	Sure it does! He can use any mount, stone horses, ebon fly, or the ridiculously powerful obsidian steed. Taking out his mount isn't worthwhile, you've just lost a round of actions. More like a single swift action. The "ridiculously powerful obsidian steed" has 30hp. But perhaps the wizard would have better things to do. Of course, as the fighter has a mount, it should be noted that the wizard can cast shapechange on his familiar and get some serious backup. But that's getting beyond the scope of my original claim. Shield and mage armor are bypassed with relatively cheap and simple arrows of brilliant energy, that can be made seeking no less to get rid of any concealement spells. All that's great, but I never made any claims about archers. Your amulet doesn't stack with the natural armor bonus given from your shapechange spell. Uh, yes it does. An amulet of natural armor grants an enhancement bonus to natural armor, while shapechange just gives the natural armor of the assumed form. Your ring likely can't be worn in dragon form, by core rules at least it would meld into you. A pit fiend is able to wear all magical gear other than armor just fine. See the FAQ. Invisibility cuts to the fighter's advantage. As soon as you engage you're hit with cheap dust of appearance, Considering that he is spending a standard action to use said dust, I doubt the wizard will be too upset. or his intelligent weapon lights you up with faerie fire. Yeah, that could be pretty decent. By that point your transformation has it that you can't cast spells and so you're at the mercy of simple dust of disappearance. Another standard action. He then gets +2 to hit you and you lose your Dex modifier to AC. You're dead. Uh, actually, the wizard just shifts into a form with blindsight and full attacks (though there aren't many/any good forms in the core with blindsight, so perhaps not). Or uses his own dust of appearance. He's just as likely to have such an item as the fighter is.
Beckett 11-17-06, 10:57 AM	D.C's are to low. That is why Illusionists, Enchanters, and the like don't get much play, weither their spells do a damn thing at all depends on a usually 50/50 % chance, but usually as bad as 25/75 % chance of actually working on anyone. Further more, many of the times, Saves make no sense at all. How does a person avoid any damage when a Fireball literally hits them and explodes??? I can get the game mechanic, but feel that it should always bow before common sense.
TheCobra 11-17-06, 01:13 PM	That is why Illusionists, Enchanters, and the like don't get much play, weither their spells do a damn thing at all depends on a usually 50/50 % chance, but usually as bad as 25/75 % chance of actually working on anyone. Uh, look at wrathful castigation. Save or die, then save or get dazed and take a -4 penalty to all saving throws for 1 round/level. Even if the target makes each save 75% of the time (unlikely), that's going to hurt. Enchanters have more to worry about from mind blank and SR than from low save DCs.
Beckett 11-17-06, 04:01 PM	Sure, from very specific targets, but in general, spells that are save negates, like many Illusions, Enchantments, and Cleric Spells are just not worth it, especially in the boss fight when they actually matter, and you know they are most likely going to do nothing. Multiclassing and adding more then one Prestigue class automatically get you better saves, and it is all the rave now to stack a few levels of many different Prestigue Classes, giving a 20th level character an easy +20 - +40 Save across the board. So, if you tripled the feats that a spellcaster got, they still are no where close to having a fair chance at DC's.
TheCobra 11-17-06, 04:22 PM	I don't know. An Arcane Hierophant NPC I put a bit of work into recently got taken out by single bolt with drow poison on it. He had to roll a 1 or 2 to fail the save. Save-or-die effects are always a threat. Between the Fatespinner prestige class and limited wish, I really don't think DCs are too low. Save-or-die spells might not work very often, but when they do, they can end an encounter. Multiclassing and adding more then one Prestigue class automatically get you better saves, and it is all the rave now to stack a few levels of many different Prestigue Classes, giving a 20th level character an easy +20 - +40 Save across the board. Well, I use the variant multiclassing rules from Unearthed Arcana, and don't allow stacking of that initial +2. Perhaps that one reason why I see the problem differently. I don't know. Normal multiclassing rules can also get you character swith one or two very weak saving throws.
Eyeohn 11-17-06, 05:33 PM	My only question would be.. how does a fighter fight cheese such as a Celerity sudden maximised sudden empowered shivering touch (Feats from Complete Arcane and spells from players handbook II and Frostburne) or mordenkainens disjunction to take care of most of his defences. You could even use celerity to mordenkainens disjunction him before hitting him with another spell in the same turn.
runestar 11-18-06, 03:49 AM	My only question would be.. how does a fighter fight cheese such as a Celerity sudden maximised sudden empowered shivering touch (Feats from Complete Arcane and spells from players handbook II and Frostburne) or mordenkainens disjunction to take care of most of his defences. You could even use celerity to mordenkainens disjunction him before hitting him with another spell in the same turn. He doesn't. You are all supposed to work as a team, not engage in PKing every chance you get. Conversely, you should be glad your party has access to such firepower...;)
ravenshrike 11-18-06, 02:17 PM	Or just raise a windwall...:P Yeah, but blur and mirror image are also Anti-fighter as well.
smrtgmp 11-19-06, 04:54 PM	D.C's are to low. That is why Illusionists, Enchanters, and the like don't get much play, weither their spells do a damn thing at all depends on a usually 50/50 % chance, but usually as bad as 25/75 % chance of actually working on anyone.No, illusionists and enchanters are rarely played because most people lack the familiarity with the spells and magic system and the imagination to effectively play them. You cant just point and click with an enchanter; it takes a lot of forethought. A lot of people dont want to play that type of character. I adore them, but thats just me.
angryman 11-19-06, 09:44 PM	No, illusionists and enchanters are rarely played because most people lack the familiarity with the spells and magic system and the imagination to effectively play them. You cant just point and click with an enchanter; it takes a lot of forethought. A lot of people dont want to play that type of character. I adore them, but thats just me. I love enchanters too, I've played a few in my time. My last wizard Dominated an assassin who I think was an important NPC, but anyway I told him to come back to my house and take a nap, which the DM couldn't reasonably say he got an extra save for. Then i coup de grased him in his sleep.
efraker 11-19-06, 09:59 PM	Worst save of a character, eg fighter's will save +6 base +1 stat +5 resistance +1 luck (luckstone) =+13 :P You're not trying as hard to optimize the fighter's will save as you did to optimize the caster's DC. Strawman argument. I realize that this is something of a rambling rant, but the short of it is that I think magic needs a severe overhaul and simplification. The saving throws/dc/spell resistance thing isn't working as well as it did when 3.0 first came out and there were less alternate sourcebooks and less than half a million spells for an arcane spell caster to choose from. There's something fundamentally wrong with the magic system that needs looking at when half the people I know say that arcane spell casters are woefully underpowered while the other half say that they're the only way to go at high levels...of course, there's the other half that say there's no point in playing anything that's not a cleric or druid... This post is so true, and leaves me feeling like I have nothing to contribute to the discussion. I wish there was some way to give accolades on this board.
DungeonMaster 11-19-06, 10:05 PM	More like a single swift action. The "ridiculously powerful obsidian steed" has 30hp. But perhaps the wizard would have better things to do. Swift actions are not core 3.5 rules if I recal correctly. I do think that an item that lets you go ethereal, fly, plane shift at will is pretty damn good! Uh, yes it does. An amulet of natural armor grants an enhancement bonus to natural armor You're absolutely correct, my mistake, I play 3rd edition. This is another one of those rules changes I dislike intensely... anyhow... If you want to shapechange into a pit-fiend by all means. Your AC is still lower than the fighter's. Your dexterity accounts for +8 of that AC and is easily negated by the dust of disappearance. Another standard action. Whoa..? The wizard gets to buff himself before combat with 6+ spells many of short duration but the fighter can't get a single short duration buff from one of his items before combat? You currently have: shapechange, mage armor, shield, tenser's transformation, displacement, improved invisibility and perhaps a limited wish or two clerical spells? The fighter can easily have dust of disappearance active before joining combat if your wizard can have his slew of spells. Uh, actually, the wizard just shifts into a form with blindsight and full attacks (though there aren't many/any good forms in the core with blindsight, so perhaps not). There aren't any good forms with blindsight. Besides, the fighter will have blindfighting and the wizard likely won't so conditions where both can't see each other the fighter will win.
Andion Isurand 11-19-06, 10:33 PM	I would like to add the +1 weapon ability, Spellstrike (Waterdeep, 146-7). It works just like a Defending weapon except you transfer the weapon's enhancement bonus into a bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities, that stacks with all others. At fighter level 20, a +5 weapon should be within easy reach, possibly two +5 weapons (or a double weapon) if you are into TWF. If the weapon has the Spellstrike ability, you can turn that +5 into a bonus to saves against spells and spell-like abilities instead. (Or get a +10 bonus to saves against spells and spell-like abilities if using a matched pair of weapons.) Its just another new way to raise your saves against the casters. ;)
TheCobra 11-19-06, 10:33 PM	Swift actions are not core 3.5 rules if I recal correctly. The feat Quicken Spell, however, is. Whoa..? The wizard gets to buff himself before combat with 6+ spells many of short duration but the fighter can't get a single short duration buff from one of his items before combat? Yep. That's actually normally how it works. Wizards tend to cast scry and teleport. The same can't be said for Fighters. You currently have: shapechange, mage armor, shield, tenser's transformation, displacement, improved invisibility and perhaps a limited wish or two clerical spells? Even the shortest of those spells last considerably longer than the 2d6 rounds you get from Dust of Disappearance. You need only shapechange, shield, and mage armor to easily beat the Fighter's AC. Shield can be extended and/or recast repeatedly. Transformation can be put in a contingency. Anything else can be quickened and cast at the start of the encounter.
runestar 11-19-06, 11:06 PM	Yep. That's actually normally how it works. Wizards tend to cast scry and teleport. The same can't be said for Fighters. They also have access to timestop, with metamagic rods if need be...;) But the main question is: why is this degenerating into a wiz vs fighter debate again? They are a team, they should be complementing each other, not PKing each other every chance they get.:mad: Shouldn't the party be glad they have such firepower on their side?:confused:
TheCobra 11-19-06, 11:12 PM	It's a little more complicated than that, because PCs often battle with Wizard and Fighter NPCs. But I do think that balance problems between the classes matter less the when classes cooperate. As I've said, buffed and supported Fighters are terrifying.
runestar 11-19-06, 11:44 PM	It's a little more complicated than that, because PCs often battle with Wizard and Fighter NPCs. But I do think that balance problems between the classes matter less the when classes cooperate. As I've said, buffed and supported Fighters are terrifying. Lv20 fighter npcs shouldn't be able to acquire +5 gear(they only get 190000gp), they will probably have to use +1/+2 gear and rely on charged items like potions to compensate.(ie: potion of barkskin to replicate amulet of armour, oil of greater magic weapon+5 for +5weapon, magic vestment +5 to simulate +5armour etc).:) The previous threads seemed to imply a face-off between mage and figher PCs, not against npcs. And fighters still have their place. Just as keeping the balor busy and away from the party mage...:)
DungeonMaster 11-20-06, 12:09 AM	The feat Quicken Spell, however, is. Quickening a 5th level spell for a 9th level slot is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot for fun. You need the metamagic rods. Yep. That's actually normally how it works. Wizards tend to cast scry and teleport. The same can't be said for Fighters. Not true. That's a mid-level tactic. High level fighters have many options available to foil this. The most surefire of which is their intelligent weapons that can have detect scrying active all the time. Neither can you cast tenser's transformation then teleport. Besides the fighter can do scry-and-die as well with a mirror of mental prowess. And then the un-cautious wizard/cleric/whatever caught without any spells active is casually slaughtered in 1 round. Besides, this is a thread about saves and the fighter can clearly get very decent saves against scrying in 3.5. And don't tell me wizards often take spell focus divination. You need only shapechange, shield, and mage armor to easily beat the Fighter's AC. Both mage armor and shield are irrelevant to brilliant energy. Likewise a large fraction of your AC is coming from dexterity - and you can lose that bonus in a flash. I gave the example of using dust of disappearance but it could come from a ring of blinking for instance. True-seeing has a range, the archer shoots from beyond that range and you've lost. To win the wizard must use weapons and not rely on the natural attacks of the shapechanged form, which are in general pretty damn weak. A pit fiend's claw does rather pathetic damage and has nothing tied to it. Anything else can be quickened and cast at the start of the encounter. As soon as tenser's transformation comes up you can't cast anything else.
Manic Man 11-20-06, 12:21 AM	:P You're not trying as hard to optimize the fighter's will save as you did to optimize the caster's DC. Strawman argument. Then do it. While you're at it, remember the fighter's role in a party.
Manic Man 11-20-06, 12:36 AM	You can get a life drinker axe and a rapier of puncturing for little under 100k. At the very high levels survival is everything, especially with the menace that disjunction presents. Your weapon is generally secondary to your shield & armor and equipment that keeps you alive. So you're keeping yourself alive while the rest of the party kills the monsters? If you really think so, please castigate all those fighter players who routinely complain that they have nothing to do, no role in the party and what not. Please also remember DR is not so easily bypassed by just specific weapons like those. Also, list down what +7 weapon you're using because a speed enchantment would have taken up most of that +7. +5 tower shield and mithral full plate armor is only 50k and can provide 10 (base) +8 (armor) +4 (shield)+10 (enhancement) +3 dex = 35 AC. A ring of protection +5, 50k, is a given, it's your touch AC. That's AC 40 for ~100k. Realistically expertise and natural armor bonuses should push this bare minimum much higher, into the 50s. You should basically never get hit except on natural 20's. Then show your fighter, your equipment and your feats. Thinking based on unlimted assets and feats are of no concrete use. Agreed. The fate of the NPC monster is typically pre-determined. However I disagree that fighters should forsake iron will. By level 9 you should have it. By 15th level you should have all 3 save-based feats. No fighter should be without expertise or dodge either, again touch-AC. If you don't, you're in for trouble. Again show your fighter. An NPC fighter is and NPC monster.
efraker 11-20-06, 12:39 AM	While you're at it, remember the fighter's role in a party. I suppose that's where we must agree to disagree? I'm not convinced that fighters, or anyone else has a "role", per se. Except maybe warmages... warmage should be an NPC class. :P
Andion Isurand 11-20-06, 01:56 AM	Lv20 fighter npcs shouldn't be able to acquire +5 gear(they only get 190000gp), they will probably have to use +1/+2 gear and rely on charged items like potions to compensate.(ie: potion of barkskin to replicate amulet of armour, oil of greater magic weapon+5 for +5weapon, magic vestment +5 to simulate +5armour etc).:) The previous threads seemed to imply a face-off between mage and figher PCs, not against npcs. And fighters still have their place. Just as keeping the balor busy and away from the party mage...:) Yeah, I was speaking more from the PC point of view.
runestar 11-20-06, 07:39 AM	I'm not convinced that fighters, or anyone else has a "role", per se. Except maybe warmages... warmage should be an NPC class. Maybe not a clear cut one, but in any party, the various players should be tying down among themselves and deciding on what roles each of them wishes to fulfil, and come to a compromise so they can then complement each other. This role can differ from party to party, but in any case, the fighter should have some sort of responsibility to carry out. Lest you run into annoying scenarios like the party mage conveniently disintergrating every monster the fighter prepares to hack apart...:P
DungeonMaster 11-20-06, 09:44 AM	So you're keeping yourself alive while the rest of the party kills the monsters? If you really think so, please castigate all those fighter players who routinely complain that they have nothing to do, no role in the party and what not. You misinterpret. It is everyone's role at the high levels to "stay alive", not just the fighter's. The monsters and challenges are strong enough to completely decimate a party that focuses on offense. The fighter's role is clear - engage the opponent in armed combat at all times. Preferably with a minimum of support from the other characters (a handful of spells). The differences between a +7 weapon and a +10 are minimal, and not typically worth the cost at these levels. Spending that extra 100k on it will not allow you to "kill monsters" that much better. Saves are much more important than an extra +1 or +2 to hit, or a flaming burst or whatever. Please also remember DR is not so easily bypassed by just specific weapons like those. The specific weapons don't really "need" to do much damage, it's the effects tied to their use that are their selling point. Besides DR in 3.5 is a moronic fighter nerf and everyone knows it. Also, list down what +7 weapon you're using because a speed enchantment would have taken up most of that +7. +3 weapon of speed? Why does it matter? Then show your fighter, your equipment and your feats. Thinking based on unlimted assets and feats are of no concrete use. Why bother? It's a lot of work to draw up a 20th level PC. I could provide one from a game I ran a while ago though if you "really" want to see a full character sheet.
Mr. Master 11-20-06, 10:43 AM	After some game sessions,I've realized that you can make the spells' DC work well if you just keep off all those classes that give you the power to raise DCs (archmage,red wizard,ierophant,etc). Just think about a typical 20th level wizard: base DC 10 10 Int/Wis/Cha base score 18 (if you're lucky) 4 5 wishes 2,5 level advancement 5 2,5 Spell Prodigy 1 Improved Spell Focus 4 +6 Int/Wis/Cha magic item 3 3 levels of archmage 6 faerunian 4th level spell (+2 to next spell DC) 2 TOTAL BONUS = 35 9th level spell DC = 44 Not to mention the fact that a red wizard would add +6 and a sun elf +1... However,if you eliminate the +6 of the archmage (or the +5 of the red wizard or other classes' special powers),the total bonus is 29,therefore the DC of a 9th level spell becomes 38 (39 if you're a sun elf or a red wizard,thanks to the +2 int of the sun elf or the feat Magic Tatoo). Now,let's think about the ST. A 20th level fighter (max amount of money 760000) would likely have: mithral full plate armour +10 110500 iron shield +5 25000 weapon +10 200000 cloak of resistance +5 25000 ring of protection +5 50000 rinf of evasion 25000 amulet of natural armour +5 50000 cloth of luck (luck bonus +5 to all STs) 62500 4 magic items that give +6 to Str,Dex,Con and Wis 144000 spring boots 2500 Total = 694500 This fighter is likely to have the 3 feats that improve his STs.With a base score at Dex and Wis of 12,this means that he has +22 to Ref and Will and +28 to For.This means that,with a roll of 10,he gets 32 to Ref/Will and 38 to For.Therefore,his worst 9th level spell would require him a 16 on a d20. Now,let's consider a 20th level fighter NPC (max amount of money 220000): armour +5 25000 shield +5 25000 weapon +3 18000 ring of protection +3 18000 amulet of natural armour +3 18000 cloak of resistance +5 25000 cloth of luck (luck bonus +3 to all STs) 22500 spring boots 2500 4 magic items +4 to Str,Dex,Con and Wis 64000 Total = 218000 This fighter is likely to have the 3 feats that improve his STs.With a base score at Wis and Dex of 12, this fighter would have a For ST of +25 and a Ref/Will ST +19.Therefore,with a roll of 10 on a d20,he would get a 35 on a For ST and a 29 on a Ref/Will ST. This means that his worst 9th level spell would require a 19 on a d20. Do you think that I should lower the DC more (ex.no Improved Spell Focus,therefore -2 to the best DC available)or the thing is right as it is?
DungeonMaster 11-20-06, 11:23 AM	Do you think that I should lower the DC more (ex.no Improved Spell Focus,therefore -2 to the best DC available)or the thing is right as it is? Drop improved spell focus and spellcasting prodigy.
TheCobra 11-20-06, 12:15 PM	Quickening a 5th level spell for a 9th level slot is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot for fun. You need the metamagic rods. This whole debate is about a Wizard using the suboptimal tactic of going in for melee. If he's going to do this, I don't why he shouldn't burn a few spells in process. And metamagic rods are standard gear for Wizards. The most surefire of which is their intelligent weapons that can have detect scrying active all the time. That's not even remotely surefire. At best, it stops the surprise round. It doesn't even make the scrying fail. Besides the fighter can do scry-and-die as well with a mirror of mental prowess. And then the un-cautious wizard/cleric/whatever caught without any spells active is casually slaughtered in 1 round. Yes, because Fighters normally spend 175k on such items. :P Anyways, that wouldn't work. Mind blank lasts all day and all night. Besides, that would only work if the Fighter knew where the Wizards was. You can't target creatures with the mirror. Both mage armor and shield are irrelevant to brilliant energy. A fighter going that way had better have a good backup weapon, 'coz the Wizard can become immune to brilliant energy weapons with a free action. Also, it's debatable whether brilliant energy weapons can ever bypass DR based on a special material. That could cut down his damage by 15 points each swing. True-seeing has a range, the archer shoots from beyond that range and you've lost. What part of in melee combat don't you understand? I never said the Wizard would win an archery duel. To win the wizard must use weapons and not rely on the natural attacks of the shapechanged form, which are in general pretty damn weak. A pit fiend's claw does rather pathetic damage and has nothing tied to it. I don't agree. The damage is good, especially the constrict damage. But yes, using both a weapon (perhaps a brilliant energy weapon) and the natural weapons is a good idea. As soon as tenser's transformation comes up you can't cast anything else. That's a good reason to cast it last or put it in a contingency.
Mr. Master 11-20-06, 12:44 PM	Drop improved spell focus and spellcasting prodigy. Why?Because a NPC needs a high roll?I would approve your suggestion,but wouldn't the spellcaster be in trouble against a monster (monsters can have STs far higher than NPCs)?Not to mention a PC vs PC...
Andion Isurand 11-20-06, 01:17 PM	After some game sessions,I've realized that you can make the spells' DC work well if you just keep off all those classes that give you the power to raise DCs (archmage,red wizard,ierophant,etc). Just think about a typical 20th level wizard: base DC 10 10 Int/Wis/Cha base score 18 (if you're lucky) 4 5 wishes 2,5 level advancement 5 2,5 Spell Prodigy 1 Improved Spell Focus 4 +6 Int/Wis/Cha magic item 3 3 levels of archmage 6 faerunian 4th level spell (+2 to next spell DC) 2 TOTAL BONUS = 35 9th level spell DC = 44 Not to mention the fact that a red wizard would add +6 and a sun elf +1... However,if you eliminate the +6 of the archmage (or the +5 of the red wizard or other classes' special powers),the total bonus is 29,therefore the DC of a 9th level spell becomes 38 (39 if you're a sun elf or a red wizard,thanks to the +2 int of the sun elf or the feat Magic Tatoo). Now,let's think about the ST. A 20th level fighter (max amount of money 760000) would likely have: mithral full plate armour +10 110500 iron shield +5 25000 weapon +10 200000 cloak of resistance +5 25000 ring of protection +5 50000 rinf of evasion 25000 amulet of natural armour +5 50000 cloth of luck (luck bonus +5 to all STs) 62500 4 magic items that give +6 to Str,Dex,Con and Wis 144000 spring boots 2500 Total = 694500 This fighter is likely to have the 3 feats that improve his STs.With a base score at Dex and Wis of 12,this means that he has +22 to Ref and Will and +28 to For.This means that,with a roll of 10,he gets 32 to Ref/Will and 38 to For.Therefore,his worst 9th level spell would require him a 16 on a d20. Now,let's consider a 20th level fighter NPC (max amount of money 220000): armour +5 25000 shield +5 25000 weapon +3 18000 ring of protection +3 18000 amulet of natural armour +3 18000 cloak of resistance +5 25000 cloth of luck (luck bonus +3 to all STs) 22500 spring boots 2500 4 magic items +4 to Str,Dex,Con and Wis 64000 Total = 218000 This fighter is likely to have the 3 feats that improve his STs.With a base score at Wis and Dex of 12, this fighter would have a For ST of +25 and a Ref/Will ST +19.Therefore,with a roll of 10 on a d20,he would get a 35 on a For ST and a 29 on a Ref/Will ST. This means that his worst 9th level spell would require a 19 on a d20. Do you think that I should lower the DC more (ex.no Improved Spell Focus,therefore -2 to the best DC available)or the thing is right as it is? * 3.5 Spellcasting Prodigy, only affects your bonus spells, not your spell DC * 3.5 archmage no longer has any abilities to increase spell DC. * 3.5 Spell Focus and Improved Spell Focus give a total of +2 to spell DCs, not +4. * as long as the wizard is taking Spell Focus feats, the fighter should be taking feats for their saving throws * weapon +10.... include the +1 Spellstrike ability (Waterdeep book) with that, and the fighter can pump the weapon's enhancement bonus into a bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilties, that stacks with all others. (like a Defending weapon can do for your AC)
Mr. Master 11-20-06, 01:20 PM	I know:) .I'm speaking with 3.0 in my mind,so as to improve it (you know,I'm one of those that still play with it).
Andion Isurand 11-20-06, 02:13 PM	Well, speaking of 3.0, I wish the Spell Focus feats had stayed the way they were. ...especially with all the multiclassing and level dips that high BAB classes can make to increase their saving throws, without slowing the growth of their combat prowess.
Manic Man 11-20-06, 08:29 PM	You misinterpret. It is everyone's role at the high levels to "stay alive", not just the fighter's. The monsters and challenges are strong enough to completely decimate a party that focuses on offense. The fighter's role is clear - engage the opponent in armed combat at all times. Preferably with a minimum of support from the other characters (a handful of spells). So if he is able to engage the opponent in armed combat but never inflicts sufficient damage to kill it before being killed, he has fufilled his role? The differences between a +7 weapon and a +10 are minimal, and not typically worth the cost at these levels. Spending that extra 100k on it will not allow you to "kill monsters" that much better. Saves are much more important than an extra +1 or +2 to hit, or a flaming burst or whatever. . You have never played a fighter have you? Weapon +1 Shadowstriking +3 Speed +3 There is no flaming burst and what not at all in this +7 weapon and this is the very basic stuff. The specific weapons don't really "need" to do much damage, it's the effects tied to their use that are their selling point. Besides DR in 3.5 is a moronic fighter nerf and everyone knows it. Please do reread the weapon descriptions and pay special note to the drawbacks and limits. Also remember that how you feel about the DR rules doesn't matter in this thread. That the rule exists does. Why bother? It's a lot of work to draw up a 20th level PC. I could provide one from a game I ran a while ago though if you "really" want to see a full character sheet. I'm surprised that someone DMing would not have a 20th level NPC fighter in all that they played since the PCs are 20th level. Do post it while remembering 3 things. All the items, feats, whatever that you raised in this thread. Saying something is 3.0 is not an excuse because the amulet of natural armor works the same in 3.5 as in 3.0 Standard point buy is 25 points
Manic Man 11-20-06, 08:43 PM	cloth of luck (luck bonus +3 to all STs) 22500 I don't remember this item. Where is it found? A few other things that the fighter would probably need Flight capability (i believe wings of flying were underpriced in 3.0 so that should take care of flight) Teleportation capability Scry blocking capability Freedom of movement capability Some sort of defense vs energy drain/death effects
angryman 11-20-06, 09:31 PM	OK, I've seen a bunch of dumb comments about a fighter spending most of his money on spell protection items for some kind of imaginary solo-arena event. But why would you do that? When I played my last game, we had a fighter with a +2 will save at level 16, so guess who I gave the Mind Blank to? And if that's dispelled, I'll just cast Dominate Person on him and tell him to act normally. This is teamwork.
efraker 11-20-06, 10:44 PM	I'll just cast Dominate Person on him and tell him to act normally. This is teamwork. Hahah..... that's awesome. =)
FeceMan 11-20-06, 11:34 PM	The fighter is likewise incompetent if he doesn't take as one of his many many feats iron will, +2. Begone, blasphemer.
DungeonMaster 11-21-06, 12:44 AM	So if he is able to engage the opponent in armed combat but never inflicts sufficient damage to kill it before being killed, he has fufilled his role? Who said insufficient damage to kill it before being killed? Did I? No. I said +7 weapons are sufficient. Sufficient not = insufficient. You have never played a fighter have you?Weapon +1 Shadowstriking +3 Speed +3 There is no flaming burst and what not at all in this +7 weapon and this is the very basic stuff. I'm going to be diplomatic. This is what you quoted: "The differences between a +7 weapon and a +10 are minimal, and not typically worth the cost at these levels. Spending that extra 100k on it will not allow you to "kill monsters" that much better. Saves are much more important than an extra +1 or +2 to hit, or a flaming burst or whatever." How does your detailing what a +7 weapon is have ANY bearing at ALL on my comment? I'll attribute this to you accidentally misquoting the incorrect section of my reply. Please do reread the weapon descriptions and pay special note to the drawbacks and limits. I will pay not a drop of concern. If you want 3 rapiers of puncturing then it's easy as pie to afford them at the very high levels. 2 +10 weapons for a dual weilder, your suggestion, is a much bigger "drawback" on your day-to-day survival than anything related to charges/day or similar. I'm surprised that someone DMing would not have a 20th level NPC fighter in all that they played since the PCs are 20th level. Because, perhaps, just maybe, if you looked back in the thread to say this comment: "Agreed. The fate of the NPC monster is typically pre-determined." You would realise that I agree with the general assesment that a 20th level fighter NPC is not a worthy challenge. In fact the statement is larger than that: I don't think ANY 20th level NPC is worth its CR . Wizard, warrior, priest or rogue. They're just plain too weak all alone to be a real threat. However 17th and 16th level groups of NPCs that work together are a real threat and I have some of those. Saying something is 3.0 is not an excuse because the amulet of natural armor works the same in 3.5 as in 3.0 Standard point buy is 25 points The amulet of natural armor is different between editions. It's an enhancement bonus to natural armor in 3.5. It's plain natural armor bonus in 3rd. Capish? Point buy is an optional rule. I have my PCs roll all abilities. I'll try get a scan for tomorrow.
DungeonMaster 11-21-06, 01:02 AM	Why?Because a NPC needs a high roll?I would approve your suggestion,but wouldn't the spellcaster be in trouble against a monster (monsters can have STs far higher than NPCs)?Not to mention a PC vs PC... Monster saving throws are not necessarily so high in 3rd edition, particularly if you use the MM as your primary source of monsters. They can be, particularly with dragons, but in general they are fair. Take a cross section of the monsters in the CR ~20 range: 18/13/17 Titan 38/29/20 Tarrasque 18/18/20 Solar 19/-/19 Formian Queen 12/9/13 Balor 8/8/21 Nightcrawler 11/8/10 Marilith 28/20/24 Dragon Great wyrm white 25/17/23 Dragon very old red As a "base" save, many of these monsters cannot save easily against the most powerful DC 33 spell-focused 18-starting-int 9th level spell. Of course almost all these monsters have spell resistance, spells and spell like abilities that can boost their saves. Titans have near godlike spell casting ability and can easily cast protection from spells to increase that base to 26/21/25 with just one spell. Bless puts them at 27/22/25. Cat's grace + endurance puts them at +29/24/25. It is still fair, though difficult, if you target the weak save. The titan will likely have contingencies and other spells so it's a safe bet that if you target saves you should use disjunction first. The formian queen is completely vulnerable to reflex saves. She too can boost her other saves to ridiculously high levels if she uses the same spells as detailed above. The solar is much akin to the titan. It can cast shield of law to get to 22/22/24, endurance 24/22/24, bless 25/23/25, and wish if necessary for protection from spells. The demons are relatively weak against saved based magic but have high SR. And very powerful defensive and offensive spell like abilities. Nightcrawlers are outright immune to all but a small fraction of spells. Dragons are well, dragons. Even just standing around with no magic they have great saves. If they pick save-increasing feats and magic your PCs will need to dispel them to have a hope in hell of working. So really you see it's a very good range. It's up to you to decide where to stop, I think DC 33 amply covers the whole range. Some weak, some very tough, some requiring de-buffing for the save-based spells to work.
DungeonMaster 11-21-06, 01:14 AM	When I played my last game, we had a fighter with a +2 will save at level 16, so guess who I gave the Mind Blank to? And if that's dispelled, I'll just cast Dominate Person on him and tell him to act normally. This is teamwork. Except that magic-jar isn't protected by mind blank, by say your average ghost or semi-intelligent wizard. Or plane shift. Or trap-the-soul. Or soul-bind. Or bestow curse. Or ... the list is long. 1 of 3 things: A- you got lucky. B- your DM went easy on the fighter and never told you. C- your DM is incompetent.
TheCobra 11-21-06, 01:22 AM	Yeah, I agree with you about Fighters and Will saves. I don't know how a 16th-level character with a +2 Will save could survive. (I'm also not quite sure how it could happen. Is his WIS that low? Does he not wear a cloak of resistance?)
Andion Isurand 11-21-06, 02:32 AM	oops, duplicate
Andion Isurand 11-21-06, 02:33 AM	Yeah, I agree with you about Fighters and Will saves. I don't know how a 16th-level character with a +2 Will save could survive. (I'm also not quite sure how it could happen. Is his WIS that low? Does he not wear a cloak of resistance?) It would take 5 wisdom and no effort to take any appropriate feats or obtain items. Or 1 point of wisdom and the Iron Will feat. Either way, a low ability score like that is going to cause a stain anywhere its placed.
Manic Man 11-21-06, 04:59 AM	Who said insufficient damage to kill it before being killed? Did I? No. I said +7 weapons are sufficient. Sufficient not = insufficient. Then show your fighter. Its seems your fighter has endless assets, feats and whatnot available for him to spend to be fully effective in offense and defense I'm going to be diplomatic. This is what you quoted: "The differences between a +7 weapon and a +10 are minimal, and not typically worth the cost at these levels. Spending that extra 100k on it will not allow you to "kill monsters" that much better. Saves are much more important than an extra +1 or +2 to hit, or a flaming burst or whatever." How does your detailing what a +7 weapon is have ANY bearing at ALL on my comment? I'll attribute this to you accidentally misquoting the incorrect section of my reply. No there is no misquote "differences between a +7 weapon and a +10 are minimal" "Spending that extra 100k on it will not allow you to "kill monsters" that much better." You really have never played or DMed a fighter have you? The 2 properties i specified are the bare essentials unless you're carrying multiple weapons and willing to give up 1 attack at full attack bonus With those 2 properties, your +7 has already been used up. I don't even need to mention all the other capabilities that can be had for the remain +3. Even a simple boost to +4 weapon would be a massive difference over 5 attacks I will pay not a drop of concern. If you want 3 rapiers of puncturing then it's easy as pie to afford them at the very high levels. 2 +10 weapons for a dual weilder, your suggestion, is a much bigger "drawback" on your day-to-day survival than anything related to charges/day or similar. ....3 rapiers = 150k = 9/day = TWF 1 round full attack + 1 attacks ....3 rapiers = 150k =9/day = 1 round full attack + 4 attacks .... Because, perhaps, just maybe, if you looked back in the thread to say this comment: "Agreed. The fate of the NPC monster is typically pre-determined." You would realise that I agree with the general assesment that a 20th level fighter NPC is not a worthy challenge. In fact the statement is larger than that: I don't think ANY 20th level NPC is worth its CR . Wizard, warrior, priest or rogue. They're just plain too weak all alone to be a real threat. However 17th and 16th level groups of NPCs that work together are a real threat and I have some of those. A 20th level NPC fighter's difference is only 2 things 1 point buy stats. 2 assets. I'm wondering how difficult is it for a DM who knows what he's doing to adjust this 2 variables to PC level. I dunno maybe elite array adjusted to 25 point buy is just too difficult. Point buy is an optional rule. I have my PCs roll all abilities. I'll try get a scan for tomorrow. Duh, i already see what's going to happen. Wonderful isn't it when you have multiple high stats and a nice low number for the dump stat. Oh and just for your information (and since this thread is on DCs being low), a naked 17th NPC wizard with base 15 int casting frost fell would be at DC 27 without bothering to take cold focus
runestar 11-21-06, 05:56 AM	Actually, I think point but is every bit as legit as die rolls...else, what's to stop me from generating a PC with 18 in all stats? Just create a program that keeps rerolling until all 18s turn up...;)
angryman 11-21-06, 09:04 AM	Except that magic-jar isn't protected by mind blank, by say your average ghost or semi-intelligent wizard. Or plane shift. Or trap-the-soul. Or soul-bind. Or bestow curse. Or ... the list is long. 1 of 3 things: A- you got lucky. B- your DM went easy on the fighter and never told you. C- your DM is incompetent. What exactly is your point? You have the habit of saying, "Aha! But this obscure/situational spell totally screws you, so obviously your idea sucks." I didn't say Mind Blank is the be-all-and-end-all, I just said it was indicative of teamwork to put it on the fighter instead of hogging it for yourself. Hell, you didn't even mention Harm, which imo is much worse than a lot of the things you mentioned. Show me a PC who has ALL contingencies for every arbitrary spell covered, and I'll show you a liar.
Mr. Master 11-21-06, 12:29 PM	Monster saving throws are not necessarily so high in 3rd edition, particularly if you use the MM as your primary source of monsters. They can be, particularly with dragons, but in general they are fair. Take a cross section of the monsters in the CR ~20 range: 18/13/17 Titan 38/29/20 Tarrasque 18/18/20 Solar 19/-/19 Formian Queen 12/9/13 Balor 8/8/21 Nightcrawler 11/8/10 Marilith 28/20/24 Dragon Great wyrm white 25/17/23 Dragon very old red As a "base" save, many of these monsters cannot save easily against the most powerful DC 33 spell-focused 18-starting-int 9th level spell. Of course almost all these monsters have spell resistance, spells and spell like abilities that can boost their saves. Titans have near godlike spell casting ability and can easily cast protection from spells to increase that base to 26/21/25 with just one spell. Bless puts them at 27/22/25. Cat's grace + endurance puts them at +29/24/25. It is still fair, though difficult, if you target the weak save. The titan will likely have contingencies and other spells so it's a safe bet that if you target saves you should use disjunction first. The formian queen is completely vulnerable to reflex saves. She too can boost her other saves to ridiculously high levels if she uses the same spells as detailed above. The solar is much akin to the titan. It can cast shield of law to get to 22/22/24, endurance 24/22/24, bless 25/23/25, and wish if necessary for protection from spells. The demons are relatively weak against saved based magic but have high SR. And very powerful defensive and offensive spell like abilities. Nightcrawlers are outright immune to all but a small fraction of spells. Dragons are well, dragons. Even just standing around with no magic they have great saves. If they pick save-increasing feats and magic your PCs will need to dispel them to have a hope in hell of working. So really you see it's a very good range. It's up to you to decide where to stop, I think DC 33 amply covers the whole range. Some weak, some very tough, some requiring de-buffing for the save-based spells to work. Well,if I drop Improved Spell Focus and Spell Prodigy,I'll reach DC 35,not 33. Uhm,it could be a reasonably balanced DC,but what about a NPC caster?Such an NPC,can reach about 33,if the max DC for a PC is 38.If the max DC for a PC is 35,this means that the NPC could only reach 30.Wouldn't it be too low if compared to the STs that a PC can reach?
DungeonMaster 11-22-06, 10:48 AM	Well,if I drop Improved Spell Focus and Spell Prodigy,I'll reach DC 35,not 33. My bad. Uhm,it could be a reasonably balanced DC,but what about a NPC caster?Such an NPC,can reach about 33,if the max DC for a PC is 38.If the max DC for a PC is 35,this means that the NPC could only reach 30.Wouldn't it be too low if compared to the STs that a PC can reach? That depends. Do you think your players are smart enough to go looking through the books for the best ways to improve their saves? If so, and you don't want to go to follow the standard paths of lowering them (i.e. dispel, enervation, limited wish, etc...) then you probably want the DCs up around 35 for a reasonable chance at defeating their saves. Here's a fighter I had at a 20th level game. To be perfectly transparent I had to re-write his whole sheet because he had significantly more than the alloted 760 000 GP worth of gear. This is because the wizard and cleric in the party crafted items for him, so I needed to tone him down a bit. Most notably he had a ring of spell turning but that's neither here nor there for the purposes of this discussion. http://univmail.mcmaster.ca/~ouellecv/Dungeons/fighter1.JPG http://univmail.mcmaster.ca/~ouellecv/Dungeons/fighter2.JPG
DungeonMaster 11-22-06, 11:08 AM	What exactly is your point? You have the habit of saying, "Aha! But this obscure/situational spell totally screws you, so obviously your idea sucks." I didn't say your idea sucks. Nor is the list of spells and abilities I provided obscure or situational. I'm merely saying that a fighter with a +2 will save at 16th level must have had some sort of aid in reaching that level because in a standard campaign that sort of weakness would have spelled his doom many times before ever reaching the level at which you can cast mind-blank. And that weak will save will continue to be the bane of his existence thereafter because mind-blank doesn't completely cover him. By all means I would advocate casting mind-blank, protection from spells, bless, holy aura and ANYTHING you can do to help him. Hell, you didn't even mention Harm, which imo is much worse than a lot of the things you mentioned. Show me a PC who has ALL contingencies for every arbitrary spell covered, and I'll show you a liar. Harm isn't that bad. The number of monsters in the game that can cast harm is very small. The number of monsters in the game that can target a will-save is enormous. PCs with all contingencies covered all the time are indeed unrealistic. PCs that have the ability within rounds to have any contingency covered are the ones that make it to high levels.
DungeonMaster 11-22-06, 11:43 AM	Then show your fighter. Its seems your fighter has endless assets, feats and whatnot available for him to spend to be fully effective in offense and defense Done. I can also get my other friend's dual-weilder if you want. But he too lives far away and doesn't have a scanner at ease of reach. No there is no misquote That's a terrible shame because it makes no sense, read it again. Long night or something similar? You really have never played or DMed a fighter have you? The 2 properties i specified are the bare essentials unless you're carrying multiple weapons and willing to give up 1 attack at full attack bonus I have DMed fighters, rangers and paladins extensively. I've never seen a party without them. Neither of the abilities you mentioned are "essential", far from it. They may be in your mind, but in the reality of gameplay the difference between a +7 and a +10 weapon are minimal. Even a simple boost to +4 weapon would be a massive difference over 5 attacks No it isn't. More often than not the fighter gets magical support in the form of greater magic weapon spells from allied clerics and wizards. It impacts the game much less than specific weapon abilities. ....3 rapiers = 150k = 9/day = TWF 1 round full attack + 1 attacks Your point being? It's not like the wizards get to cast energy drain all day long either? 9d6 con damage without save, SR or anything at all isn't something to laugh at. A 20th level NPC fighter's difference is only 2 things 1 point buy stats. 2 assets. NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND USES POINT BUY. NPCs have the "standard array", not a point buy scheme by core rules. Only a newb DM uses point buy. The system is too heavily biased towards single-stat casters. It's an optional rule and a bad one at that. I don't want to discuss it further. I'm wondering how difficult is it for a DM who knows what he's doing to adjust this 2 variables to PC level. I dunno maybe elite array adjusted to 25 point buy is just too difficult. Uh... the DM who knows what he's doing and isn't by definition an idiot and wouldn't claim that going from 220k to 760k is a small chunk of change on the character sheet. The DM who doesn't know what he's doing will plunk 400k on weapons and then bemoan the fate of his PC as he dies in round1. Oh and just for your information (and since this thread is on DCs being low), a naked 17th NPC wizard with base 15 int casting frost fell would be at DC 27 without bothering to take cold focus Use broken non-core rules and you get broken things. My hulking hurler can do 1 trillion damage on a low roll. Your point being?
efraker 11-22-06, 05:06 PM	Ya know... the funny thing about this thread is that the only thing it has revealed is that different DMs have different "ecologies" to their worlds. Some strategies are essential in some play-groups, whereas they are superfluous in others. This thread is full of amazingly broad blanket statements: NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND USES POINT BUY. The 2 properties i specified are the bare essentials Spellcasters still dominate the game at all levels. The fighter is likewise incompetent if he doesn't take as one of his many many feats iron will, +2. AC 26 is suicide at level 20. The base minimum I suggest for a level 20 fighter is AC 40. I've never seen anyone with a potion of gaseous form ever. And, ironically, they are all true, in each poster's own experience. It's like we don't even share a common language; as if when Dungeon Master says "blue", angryman thinks of the word they use to describe the color of stop signs in his language. Hmm, hmm... it's all so fascinating. ;)
Mr. Master 11-23-06, 10:22 AM	My bad. That depends. Do you think your players are smart enough to go looking through the books for the best ways to improve their saves? If so, and you don't want to go to follow the standard paths of lowering them (i.e. dispel, enervation, limited wish, etc...) then you probably want the DCs up around 35 for a reasonable chance at defeating their saves. So,if I want the DCs to be around 33 (if the caster is a NPC),I just have to keep off Improved Spell Focus and Spell Prodigy. I could keep Spell Prodigy as it is,so as to have an average DC 34 (for a NPC spellcaster) or DC 37 (for a PC spellcaster).Is it better like this or without Spell Prodigy?
DungeonMaster 11-23-06, 09:31 PM	I personally like spellcasters. That being said I err towards lower spell DCs rather than higher. I'de say better without prodigy.
DungeonMaster 11-23-06, 09:34 PM	And, ironically, they are all true, in each poster's own experience. It's like we don't even share a common language That's part of why I find the boards interesting. It amuses me to no end to see how other people play and run their games. I roll my eyes a lot but it's fun. :P Out of curiosity do you really think that AC 26 for a fighter at level 20 is at all survivable? :P
DungeonMaster 11-23-06, 09:51 PM	It's a lazy thursday evening... I'll reply for the hell of it. This whole debate is about a Wizard using the suboptimal tactic of going in for melee. If he's going to do this, I don't why he shouldn't burn a few spells in process. Sure he can. But how many wizards have the quicken feat in the first place? It's an extreme rarity in my experience and doesn't stack with the metamagic rod. That's not even remotely surefire. At best, it stops the surprise round. It doesn't even make the scrying fail. No it doesn't make the scrying fail. But it does allow him to prep for combat, which was what you said he couldn't do. Yes, because Fighters normally spend 175k on such items. :P No they don't. :P But I've given them to NPCs before (complete DM fiat, not part of their gear as per the rules). And you're 100% correct about how useless the damn mirror is in 3.5. So you can see... 1200 feet away from your mirror's location? Because Andy nerfed both the clairvoyance spell AND the mirror. My god I pray for 4th edition and someone with skill and experience to write the rules. A fighter going that way had better have a good backup weapon, 'coz the Wizard can become immune to brilliant energy weapons with a free action. Not a problem, you're dead if you turn into anything core that does that. What part of in melee combat don't you understand? I never said the Wizard would win an archery duel. I thought we covered melee combat? He charges on a mount, does triple damage, you don't, you lose? I think you want to stand there and trade blows... So he blows a horn of fog and engages you in the fog where he has blindfight and you don't? You lose.
angryman 11-23-06, 10:01 PM	How many wizards have the quicken feat in the first place? It's an extreme rarity in my experience and doesn't stack with the metamagic rod. This is kinda funny. As someone mentioned earlier, we all have different experiences; my wizards often take quicken spell at about 15th level. Quicken Metamagic Rods aren't cheap you know. :) I thought we covered melee combat? He charges on a mount, does triple damage, you don't, you lose? I think you want to stand there and trade blows... So he blows a horn of fog and engages you in the fog where he has blindfight and you don't? You lose. I actually like the idea you've posted for a warrior-type to fight a mage. But the problem with mounted combat is, it's really situational, unless you do something odd like shrink yourself in a dungeon, and even then, you often can't charge due to LOS.
TheCobra 11-23-06, 10:25 PM	Sure he can. But how many wizards have the quicken feat in the first place? It's an extreme rarity in my experience and doesn't stack with the metamagic rod. Well, my experience is quite different. Either way, the wizard can buff pretty easily. But it does allow him to prep for combat, which was what you said he couldn't do. The 2d6 rounds from Dust of Disappearance is still useless unless he somehow predicts exactly when the Wizard is going to teleport in. I'd love to see a player who burnt a 3.5k item every time he detected someone scrying on him, though. That'd make me laugh. I thought we covered melee combat? He charges on a mount, does triple damage, you don't, you lose? No, he isn't even able hit your AC. And your familar, which also shapechaped into a pit fiend or whatever, kills his mount. Then he's flanked and he loses. But I was talking about a one-on-one fight. Throwing another pit fiend into the mix just makes it worse for the fighter. So he blows a horn of fog and engages you in the fog where he has blindfight and you don't? You lose. That's just silly. He takes a standard action to give everyone a 20% miss chance that he can roll twice against. Wonderful. That's obviously better than attacking. Of course, nothing is stopping the wizard from also taking Blind-Fight. That's the common theme in all your amazing tactics. The fighter uses tricks the wizard could use just as easily. The wizard, on the other hand, uses spell from his class list.
DungeonMaster 11-23-06, 11:08 PM	The 2d6 rounds from Dust of Disappearance is still useless unless he somehow predicts exactly when the Wizard is going to teleport in. No, a readied action will suffice. And besides, I'de get a kick out of a wizard burning a whole pile of limited wishes and material components buffing up for an encounter with a fighter that never materialises because the fighter makes his will save against 3.5 scrying. They even included a dumb rule whereas if he's on another plane of existence, which the fighter can change to in an instant of course, he gets a +5 bonus. And here's the kicker, the dimwit added a dumb rule that you can outrun the sensor too. So all you need is what, the run feat or a plain horse to complete negate scry-teleport? Isn't that hilarious? No, he isn't even able hit your AC. And your familar, which also shapechaped into a pit fiend or whatever, kills his mount. Then he's flanked and he loses. The fighter can hit your AC. I've got +44 with my 3rd edition archer in a rapid shot. The numbers will be similar for the melee guy in 3.5. Brilliant energy negates your armor bonus and fighting from inside say smoke negates your dexterity bonus. You have yet to demonstrate the ability to hit the fighter's AC however. Your familiar loses all shared spells as soon as he's more than 5 feet away from you, so no flanking. In fact a crappy bull-rush with make your familiar the toad it is. That's just silly. He takes a standard action to give everyone a 20% miss chance that he can roll twice against. Wonderful. That's obviously better than attacking. Of course, nothing is stopping the wizard from also taking Blind-Fight. That's the common theme in all your amazing tactics. The fighter uses tricks the wizard could use just as easily. The wizard, on the other hand, uses spell from his class list. The wizard simply doesn't have sufficient feats to be as good a fighter as the fighter. He can get similar numerical advantages temporarily using spells but he simply can't out-fight the fighter. We've already established the fighter needs only switch to a different form of combat (archery, charging) to utterly defeat the wizard in straight combat. Even if the wizard decides to pick up weapons, which will be necessary to make up the numerical advantage the fighter has, AND pick some fighting related feats the list gets too long for him to reasonably keep up. And I meant the eversmoking bottle, not the horn of fog. Or you could use plain old ordinary "real" smoke by say building a fire. Same idea but different miss chances, sorry. You pick up a weapon, fine I take sunder, quickdraw and improved disarm and wear a locked guantlet. You lose. Yeah they're kind of irritating "mundane" somewhat dopey tactics that don't require any flashy magic but you're going to lose in the end. Never forget the adage: a dumb strategy that wins isn't really dumb.
TheCobra 11-23-06, 11:33 PM	No, a readied action will suffice. An interesting idea. The one thing this thread has shown me is how dependent on items fighters are. And besides, I'de get a kick out of a wizard burning a whole pile of limited wishes and material components buffing up for an encounter with a fighter that never materialises because the fighter makes his will save against 3.5 scrying. That's why you buff after the scrying succeeds. Though really, the fighter doesn't have to spend any XP or gp to get a high AC. The numbers will be similar for the melee guy in 3.5. With core material only? It shouldn't be much more than +35 (depending, of course, on the fighter's STR). You have yet to demonstrate the ability to hit the fighter's AC however. The wizard gets +35 to hit with just shapechange and transformation. Your familiar loses all shared spells as soon as he's more than 5 feet away from you, so no flanking. That's why you cast shapechange on the familiar, instead of just sharing it with him. Those little buggers are actually pretty cool at higher levels. No you still lose. No, you lose! :P And guess what else? My spear is longer than yours, and it deals more piercing damage. We've already established the fighter needs only switch to a different form of combat (archery, charging) to utterly defeat the wizard in straight combat. We have established no such thing. It's very easy for a wizard to counter these other tactics, especially archery. (Heck, maybe he'd use a horn of fog!) You pick up a weapon, fine I take sunder, quickdraw and improved disarm and wear a locked guantlet. You lose. And then the shapechanged wizard kills you with natural weapons.
DungeonMaster 11-24-06, 12:15 AM	That's why you buff after the scrying succeeds. So he mounts his horse and rides to the nearby woods? You appear all prim with abjurations shaking the fabric of space time to... an oak? :P With core material only? It shouldn't be much more than +35 (depending, of course, on the fighter's STR). No, no. It's going to be much higher than +35 for a warrior worth his salt. Look at the 3rd edition archer I posted. For the sake of argument lets get a real high number: +20 base +1 competence +2 feats (w.focus, g.w.focus) +1 race (half-orc) +5 weapon enhancement + 4 18 starting str + 5 (levels & inherent) + 3 enhancement item. That's +41 flat out. You can use potions of enlarge for +42, rage for +43, heroism for +45, +47 if he's charging. I said ~+40 because I don't beleive everyone starts with an 18 stat in a real game and some of these effects affect your AC. The wizard gets +35 to hit with just shapechange and transformation. Yeah, that's not as good as the fighter though just standing around picking his nose. The wizard will have to gear himself up like a fighter or lose. That's why you cast shapechange on the familiar, instead of just sharing it with him. Hmm... forgot about that. :P Guess I don't call on my cohorts and you don't call on your familiar... :P No, you lose! :P And guess what else? My spear is longer than yours, and it deals more piercing damage. No, you lose! Your spear is my spear when I improved disarmed you. And I'm large too via potion. We have established no such thing. It's very easy for a wizard to counter these other tactics, especially archery. (Heck, maybe he'd use a horn of fog!) The wizard has the distinct problem of a time limit on his all important spells. The fighter really doesn't. Unless he really wants lots of potions active.
TheCobra 11-24-06, 12:47 AM	So he mounts his horse and rides to the nearby woods? You appear all prim with abjurations shaking the fabric of space time to... an oak? Yes, it is a bit harder to track down folks when they know you're coming. The fighter could also teleport away using boots or a helm. Still, the wizard is far more likely to ambush the fighter than the other way around. Not all 20th-level fighters can detect scrying, anyway. +1 competence On melee attacks? How do you get that with core items? You can use potions of enlarge for +42 Enlarge person does not increase a character's attack bonus. +1 from STR, -1 from size increase. inherent Yeah, if he wants to spend the 137.5k. rage for +43 How does a fighter rage? heroism for +45 That is a good call, as a potion lasts for 50 minutes and only costs 750gp. However, 750gp is still more than the wizard's spells cost him. I said ~+40 Maybe. It is useful to note that fighters do better in this battle if the stats are higher. But, for a human fighter starting with 15 STR, +40 is pushing it. The inherent bonus gets it to +37, and the heroism potion makes it +39. Of course, that's only with a +5 weapon that he's taken two feats for. Hmm... forgot about that. Guess I don't call on my cohorts and you don't call on your familiar... That's an... odd way to look at things. Familiars are a class feature. Leadership is a feat that requires a special deal with the DM. Wizards are just as likely to take Leadership as fighters are. Your spear is my spear when I improved disarmed you. I thought we agreed that it was time for you to stop touching my spear. The wizard has the distinct problem of a time limit on his all important spells. The fighter really doesn't. Most of them last long enough. Shapechange, as I've already noted, lasts for more than three hours. And wizards get a fair number of spells per day.
Manic Man 11-24-06, 01:38 AM	:nonono: i) 1 melee weapon with 1d6+3 damage that bypasses no DR except X/magic.. ii) Said melee weapon can do 3d6 Con per day, avg 10 con damage per day... iii) Uses a missile weapon that gives a bonus 1/day to 1 target.... iv) Said missile weapon actually inflicts -1 to hit with all weapons if the target is not dead... v) Using 2 intelligent weapons with no ego and no alignment... vi) One of said intelligent item has unlimited true seeing, uncanny dodge, improved initiative, evasion and shield none of which is core... v) Remarkable undercosting: Ring of evasion + gem of seeing = 100k.... vi) Constant +7 shield AC even when using bow... vii) 1/week fly, planeshift and etheralness... viii) +10 wis when the item only gives +6... ix) 25 +5 arrows, no other DR bypass x) Incredible lack of action consideration Activation of Rapier = standard action Activation of Haste = standard action Activation of mount 1/week = standard action Up to that point, i don't even want to bother checking the numbers... So to recap i) If the fighter can fly 1/week while mounted, he can fight all encounters that require flight ii) If the fighter can planeshift or go etheral 1/week, he can handle any trapping spells like force cage. iii) If a fighter can inflict 1d6+3 damage in melee (avg 6/attack), he has good enough melee offense iv) If a fighter can inflict d6+8 damage in missile (avg 11/attack) combat, he has good enough missile offense v) If a fighter cannot bypass DR in any manner, thats fine too vi) Fighters activate all there stuff before combat begins, while being invulnerable to any return attacks I had hoped that the "Dragon being immune to criticals because its Huge sized" would have helped, but it would seem i was wrong. So i shall no longer waste time explaining. :bored:
angryman 11-24-06, 07:56 AM	Why are you arguing that a wizard can out-melee a fighter? Sure, if you're insane & want to spend a lot of your resources doing it, you might be OK in melee. But a fighter can also stack magic items to emulate wizard abilities and be like a wizard, also in a very limited sense. But why?
DungeonMaster 11-24-06, 10:20 AM	Why are you arguing that a wizard can out-melee a fighter? Sure, if you're insane & want to spend a lot of your resources doing it, you might be OK in melee. But a fighter can also stack magic items to emulate wizard abilities and be like a wizard, also in a very limited sense. But why? It's just for fun, nothing more. I don't think TheCobra seriously thinks a 20th level wizard has an easy victory against a 20th level fighter PC. We're just exploring all options for fun.
DungeonMaster 11-24-06, 10:49 AM	i) 1 melee weapon with 1d6+3 damage that bypasses no DR except X/magic.. ii) Said melee weapon can do 3d6 Con per day, avg 10 con damage per day... iii) Uses a missile weapon that gives a bonus 1/day to 1 target.... iv) Said missile weapon actually inflicts -1 to hit with all weapons if the target is not dead... v) Using 2 intelligent weapons with no ego and no alignment... vi) One of said intelligent item has unlimited true seeing, uncanny dodge, improved initiative, evasion and shield none of which is core... v) Remarkable undercosting: Ring of evasion + gem of seeing = 100k.... vi) Constant +7 shield AC even when using bow... vii) 1/week fly, planeshift and etheralness... viii) +10 wis when the item only gives +6... ix) 25 +5 arrows, no other DR bypass :mrt: 1/ He's an archer. It's 3rd edition, not gimpy 3.5. 2/ Archer. Melee = desperate backup. Pretty good in this case. 3/ 3rd edition, not gimpy 3.5. 4/ Ooooh... Ahhhh... best throw it in the junk pile eh? 5/ His will save makes the number irrelevant. Learn the rules. 6/ 3rd edition. Not gimpy 3.5. I and my players play 3rd edition. Get it through to the grey matter. It's in my sig, it's in this thread at least 10 times. No one but you hasn't figured this out. 7/ See, 1/ 3/ & 6/, you have 2 "fives" in your list genius 8/ The bow is the one with shield. He can hold the bow in his right hand and fight with the rapier in his left. Learn the rules. 9/ Your point? 10/ 3rd edition. For crying out loud, even the thread creator plays 3rd edition, not 3.5. (Good move too) Activation of mount 1/week = standard action :rofl: "I guess I lost that standard action last week around noon, what a waste". Stop while you're ahead Manic Man. i) If the fighter can fly 1/week while mounted, he can fight all encounters that require flight ii) If the fighter can planeshift or go etheral 1/week, he can handle any trapping spells like force cage. iii) If a fighter can inflict 1d6+3 damage in melee (avg 6/attack), he has good enough melee offense iv) If a fighter can inflict d6+8 damage in missile (avg 11/attack) combat, he has good enough missile offense v) If a fighter cannot bypass DR in any manner, thats fine too vi) Fighters activate all there stuff before combat begins, while being invulnerable to any return attacks 1/ How many archers need to get above their targets on a regular basis? How many D&D archers shoot at things flying in the air? 2/ Yeah sounds pretty reasonable. Unless you run a D&D world where every cow and chicken casts forcecage, which at this point really wouldn't surprise me given the quality of your replies. Potions of gaseous form are cheap. 3/ That's because you didn't factor power-attack. He can do 1d6+23 with terrible accuracy as a desperation move. He's done it before actually. He's an archer, remember? 4/ Longbow = 1d8. Learn the rules. 2d8+16 if he swears is pretty damn good at a thousand feet. 5/ 3rd edition. 6/ He doesn't need to activate any items on a regular basis. If hard pressed he will activate items. You might just sit there dumbfounded but he's generally a very good player and more than competent enough as to when is best to activate items. So i shall no longer waste time explaining. Please do, it's entertaining. I want you to produce a 20th level core rules 3.5 PC fighter dual weilder, since you claim great familiarity with this level of the game, you must have character sheets lying around of 20th level fighters. You even claimed 400k on weapons, which I would love to see for a good laugh. Let's call your fighter "sparky". We can then compare him to my friend's 3rd edition dual weilder. I'll then run sparky through an EL oh, say 13 encounter.
Manic Man 11-24-06, 12:04 PM	All i can say for those whose understanding is seriously impaired is to read the first post or just the title.... and please do at least try to learn the rules before making a post... :nonono:
DungeonMaster 11-24-06, 03:05 PM	Still, the wizard is far more likely to ambush the fighter than the other way around. Not all 20th-level fighters can detect scrying, anyway. Hmm... not so sure about that blanket statement. Wizards tend to build towers to do research undisturbed. If the fighter wants to bring the fight to him and he can find the tower then it's not a guarantee. On melee attacks? How do you get that with core items? Nothing simpler, pale green ioun stone. Adventurer's best friend. One of the best little items in the game. Enlarge person does not increase a character's attack bonus. +1 from STR, -1 from size increase. My bad, you're correct. How does a fighter rage? Potion of rage. Core 3.5 item. Maybe. It is useful to note that fighters do better in this battle if the stats are higher. True. Half orcs, despite all the boards complaints about them, are still very popular as fighters. That's an... odd way to look at things. Familiars are a class feature. But feats are the fighter's class feature. He's more likely to take leadership than the wizard. I thought we agreed that it was time for you to stop touching my spear. :P Only my spiked chain will touch it for the disarm or sunder, I guarantee. Most of them last long enough. Shapechange, as I've already noted, lasts for more than three hours. And wizards get a fair number of spells per day. Tenser's transformation certainly doesn't last. Shapechange, while ludicrously powerful in 3.5, isn't really a spell that allows you to take on fighters in mellee. It allows you to abuse the whole panoply of supernatural and extraordinary abilities that monsters possess.
TheCobra 11-24-06, 03:09 PM	A wizard has a much easier time becoming a fighter than a fighter has becoming a wizard. The wizard can become a pretty decent tank with just a few spells. With shapechange alone, the wizard probably won't be able to match the fighter in melee, but he has the advantage being able to easily and completely heal himself by changing into form with fast healing. Speaking of forms with fast healing, the Marut is a solid form for getting around brilliant energy weapons and ability damage. AC and hit points are problem. You need to buff with temporary hps as much as possible. With an empowered false life and greater heroism, a wizard can manage 105hp. Between damage reduction and fast healing 10, that might be enough to keep him alive. AC can be as high as 54 with the right spells and items. Another (and probably superior) option is iron body combined with the pit fiend form (cast it last, before triggering transformation from your contingency). It doesn't stop brilliant energy weapons, but it does stop ability damage and give you DR 15/adamantine. Unless the fighter's brilliant energy weapon is also holy, adamantine, and silvered, you get to subtract 15 points of damage from each hit. Your AC goes down a bit, but your to hit goes up by a point. With shapechange, iron body, mage armor, shield, transformation, foresight and the right items (100k worth), your AC should be around 59. A fighter with +40 to hit isn't going to be hitting that very often. Throw in greater heroism, boots of speed, and a +5 weapon (via greater magic weapon and your to hit should be about +46. So your eight attacks go like this: +46/46/41/36/31(2d8+30), +36/36(2d6+8), +36(4d6+8+poison), +36(2d8+8+improved grab). That's not too bad. The natural attack will look a lot better if you're willing to spend 150k on an amulet of mighty fists, but that's probably too much gold. You also have about 252hp and 40+ temp hp. Finally, moment of prescience gives you +20 boost whenever you need it. If the fighters not enlarged, just use that to force a hit with the tail slap. Then improved grab (grapple +41) and constrict the fighter to death (doing 4d8+42 damage with each check). Hmm... not so sure about that blanket statement. Wizards tend to build towers to do research undisturbed. If the fighter wants to bring the fight to him and he can find the tower then it's not a guarantee. Wizards have alarm and foresight on their class lists. Nothing simpler, pale green ioun stone. Adventurer's best friend. One of the best little items in the game. Ah. Cool. I've never played a core-only campaign, so I'm not quite as familiar with items in the DMG as you are. There are some gems in there. My group (perhaps sadly) mainly just uses the item creation guidelines. Potion of rage. Core 3.5 item. Note that it lasts only 5 rounds, gives +2 STR, and -2 AC. I'm not sure that's a great deal for the fighter. But it is a possible way to hit the wizard. But feats are the fighter's class feature. He's more likely to take leadership than the wizard. Why? He can't pick Leadership as a bonus fight. Wizards also get bonus feats, and need fewer feats to be effective. Also, in the groups I've DMed, the two characters who've taken Leadership have been casters with wizard levels. Of course, my players are strange. Finally, Wizards can use polymorph any object to turn their level 1 followers into 15HD fire giants. But that's a whole different problem... Tenser's transformation certainly doesn't last. True. And, in most cases, that a very good thing. Obviously, wizards have better things to do than try to melee. Shaping into a pit fiend for AC and other bonuses is great, though, and something you'll see actual wizards doing all the time. It allows you to abuse the whole panoply of supernatural and extraordinary abilities that monsters possess. It'd say the biggest advanges of shapechange are defensive: SR, DR, high AC, immunities, more hp, etc. Sorcerers, with their high CHA, are better at abusing supernatural abilities (turning into a beholder can be especially fun).
DungeonMaster 11-24-06, 03:15 PM	All i can say for those whose understanding is seriously impaired is to read the first post or just the title.... and please do at least try to learn the rules before making a post... Hmpf. I'm rather offended. Especially since I was rather polite with Mr. i) ii) iii) iv) v) vi) v) vi) vii) viii) ix) longbow's-do-d6 damage. So no 20th level fighter for comparison? I thought so. No worries.
DungeonMaster 11-24-06, 03:52 PM	Good, I think we're coming to an agreement. With shapechange, iron body, mage armor, shield, transformation, foresight and the right items (100k worth), your AC should be around 59. A fighter with +40 to hit isn't going to be hitting that very often. Brilliant energy goes through mage armor and sheild to strip you down to AC 51, assuming a pit-fiend as the base creature. A lot of your AC depends on dexterity though, +9 factoring in iron body, transformation and foresight (god now I remember they nerfed foresight too...). Amulet of natural armor +5 and ring of protection are the items I think you're refering to. You're still hit very very often in this scenario, and way too often if the dex bonus is lost. So your eight attacks go like this: +46/46/41/36/31(2d8+30), +36/36(2d6+8), +36(4d6+8+poison), +36(2d8+8+improved grab). I don't think you can substitute claw attacks for a full attack with a weapon. At least not in 3rd edition. In 3rd edition it's either/or, not both. I think it's that way in 3.5 as well judging from the balor entry. If it's that way in 3.5 that's totally ludicrous, do you have a FAQ quote or something to back this up? Then improved grab (grapple +41) and constrict the fighter to death (doing 4d8+42 damage with each check). You will lose any grapple check more than 50% of the time because the fighter's check is much better than yours. The 3.5 improved grapple feat gives him a +4 right off the bat. And there's always freedom of movement no-grapples in 3.5.
TheCobra 11-24-06, 04:04 PM	You're still hit very very often in this scenario, and way too often if the dex bonus is lost. You have nearly 300hp, regen 5, and DR 15 that the fighter will have one hell of a time bypassing. It's okay if you take a hit or two. I don't think you can substitute claw attacks for a full attack with a weapon. At least not in 3rd edition. You can in 3.5. You can even use a one-handed weapon get 1 claw attack. Just look at the troglodyte entry in the SRD. Club and claw and bite. And yes, it's also in the 3.5 FAQ, page 56-7. You will lose any grapple check more than 50% of the time because the fighter's check is much better than yours. I'm not seeing that. +20 bab, +10 STR, +4 feat, +1 competence (which the wizard could also get). That's +35 total. Unless he's large, he's probably not matching +41. I guess if he starts out with 20 STR he might come close. And there's always freedom of movement no-grapples in 3.5. True.
DungeonMaster 11-27-06, 01:36 PM	:surrender I yeild. I played devil's advocate for as long as I could and tried my best but Andy & Co have gone out of their way to make the fighter a pile of crap in core 3.5. You win. The victory comes about by many things but these are the primary I see: #1The absurd boost given to shapechange granting proficiency, feats, Su abilities and HP increase with Con increase and a moronic FAQ. #2 The moronic decision to increase fiend raw ability scores rather than raw hit-dice from 3rd->3.5 #3 The loss of improved critical, keen and vorpal stacking #4 The inclusion of golfbag DR (see #1) #5 The reduction in power and increase in cost of many magic items such as the oathbow, armor of the rhino #6 The weakening of intelligent item abilities #7 The inclusion of a new category of AC increase "enhancement to natural armor" aka the amulet of natural armor and "insight" AC. Yep I give up. I can't make him win. A shame too, he should win in a straight engagement no matter how much magic you have. Fighters still rule the mellee arena in core 3rd edition however, as it should be.
TheCobra 11-27-06, 05:36 PM	A shame too, he should win in a straight engagement no matter how much magic you have. I agree completely, of course. Shapechange, obviously, is the main problem. Without it, the wizard would be in trouble, as he should be.
smrtgmp 11-27-06, 08:58 PM	Out of curiosity do you really think that AC 26 for a fighter at level 20 is at all survivable? :PSeriously. That may have been an absolute statement on your part, but it was true. At 20th level, an AC of 26 means you'll be hit 19/20 times. More often than not thats not going to make for a very effective tank. regarding DCs: I'm currently playing a 12th cold based sorcerer in a dragonlance game, and the DC of my 6th level spells is 29. At 20th level (assuming I survive that long), the DC of my 9th level spells will be 39. With fatespinner I'll be able to get a single spell/day up to DC 43. And this is 3.5, so clearly its still possible to get those save DCs up there.
TheCobra 11-27-06, 09:01 PM	The fighter-type PC in one campaign I'm running has an AC of 34 or so, and they're only ECL 12. And somewhat ungeared for their level, too. The paladin's AC, on the other hand, is below 26, but not by much.
angryman 11-27-06, 09:20 PM	Yeah, I think we all agree that Shapechange is silly. Here's a challenge...what about fighter vs wizard at level 10?
smrtgmp 11-27-06, 10:24 PM	what perameters are we talking about? Is this with another wizard foolish enough to try to duplicate a tank? Or just any old wizard?
TheCobra 11-27-06, 10:31 PM	At 10th level, I doubt the wizard would win in melee. Draconic polymorph would be his best bet, and that doesn't last too long (and it's not core). Maybe if he turned into a hydra. Ten attacks dealing 1d10+9 (or 1d10+5 with normal polymorph) damage might get the job done.
smrtgmp 11-27-06, 10:33 PM	which begs the question, why would they engange in melee?
TheCobra 11-27-06, 10:43 PM	They wouldn't. I was just trying to show how broken shapechange is. Smart wizards say away from melee most of the time.
TheAnthroDM 11-27-06, 11:11 PM	You want spellcasters to be more powerful than they already are? :eek: