[3.5] Swift Step (new haste-like spell) [Archive] - Wizards Community

[3.5] Swift Step (new haste-like spell) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sphyre
07-11-04, 05:04 PM Swift Step
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude Negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

A creature with Swift Step cast on him moves abnormally faster than normal. The creature may take an extra move action (to move or make a move equivilent) each round while quickened. This creature also gains an enhancement bonus to his or her speed by 10 ft.
This effect does not stack with haste, and if the creature is subject to both haste and Swift step he chooses only one to take effect and cannot choose again until another one is cast on him or the duration expires for one. Swift step does not stack with any other ability that grants additional move or standard actions in a round.
Swift Step counters and dispells Slow, and Slow counters and dispells Swift Step with a successful dispel check (as the dispel magic spell. Swift step is higher level so countering and dispelling with slow does not always work)
Material Component: A pinch of grease.

New Item:

Boots of Many Feet: As a free action the wearer can tap the front of the boots together to gain the benefits of Swift Step for that round. He may do this upto 10 times a day.
Modetrate transmutation; CL 10; Craft Wonderous Item, Swift Step; Price 12,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Behind the curtain Pricing:
Price of Boots of speed seem to be by the equation (spell level * caster level * 800) Spell level 3 caster level 5 (minimum) = 12,000 gp
Hence the equation for a spell that has duration 1 round/level activated as a free action for round and has 10 need not be continuous rounds for a day is spell level*caster level*800.
Going by this the Boots of Many Feet are 12,000 gold (3 * 5 * 800)

Out of game balancing of the spell: Back in 3.0 haste did everything, and was horribly broken. But the one thing Fighters and the like, liked most about haste was taking the extra action to move up to the target so that he could full attack at later levels, and at earlier levels he would take the benifits of the extra attack before he had iteritive attacks. That's what prompted me to want to make this spell the most

My biggest question is balancing this spell against all other hasting spells: Lions Charge (and psionic variant), Hustle, haste. They are all 3rd level spells. All of them except haste are swift actions that grant the bonus once, while haste takes a standard action to give the benefit for round/level. I don't see this as entirely too powerful because at level 5 where the spell becomes available, the fighters don't have an iteritive attack yet, nor do they get more than one until 11th level.

Rather than flames for people who wouldn't ever allow a non-core spell to be added to their game, I would rather appriciate insight from others based on what they think of the idea and if they think it's balanced for the level spell it is. I'm considering having it be a 4th level spell, but does it belong there? (In that case the item would cost more) Thanks for your insight.
[GSV] Kirstar
07-12-04, 03:32 AM make it a couple of levels higher and called in IMPROVED HASTE or something.

give those under its effects an initiative bonus, refelex save bonus and ac bonus. also give them thier additional move action.

BUT, restrict spells caster to one spell per round still.
Sildatorak
07-12-04, 04:08 AM At best it gives a character 6 extra attacks (high level TWF warrior). For a moderate leveled character it is probably translating into two or three extra attacks, or going full attack on someone and still getting the heck out. Comparing that to Haste's one extra attack if you get to do a full attack, I think it should probably be a fourth level spell.
Sphyre
07-12-04, 04:31 AM As much as I'd like to see eye to eye with you, I don't.

Improved haste is not what I'm trying to do here.
BUT, restrict spells caster to one spell per round still. all it's adding is a move action, which is rarely ever an attack, and never a spell. Really, that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm trying to add an option to haste, not add on it.

Haste gives 1 extra attack at the full base attack bonus on a full round attack, along with other bonuses. Against one big target or people close together, it's one round of 1 attack, and then several of full round attacks that are strong

Swift Step gives 0-7 extra attacks depending on the person, but lets balance it for the regular full BAB, so thats 0-3 extra attacks at -5/-10/-15. This is only when you're threatening greater than 5 feet away from your opponent. Which means it's more front loaded at the beginning, but has no returns on consecutive turns, much less it grants iterative attacks as opposed to full BAB attacks.

This is why I think it's balanced at this level, but I need someone to convince me that that it's not in line with a 3rd level spell to change it.
[GSV] Kirstar
07-12-04, 05:31 AM its imply another version of haste but better, so it needs be to at least one level greater.

its extra attacks vs 1 extra attack.

so it should be at least 4th level. by adding acouple of additional bit you could make it a powerful 5th level instead of a week 4th level.

it sould definitely not be 3rd, or whats the point of haste ?
Vaelan
07-12-04, 07:48 AM 3.5 Haste doubles your movement rate. If I remember correctly, the 3.0 version did not do this.

Looking at this analytically, taking out the extra action for balance reasons and then putting something so similar in implies that being able to move and make a full attack is too powerful for the spell.

Also, Hustle, a similar spell, is a third level EGOIST spell. Discipline powers are often lower level or more powerful than they would be if they were spells and thus available to everyone. I don't know WHY limited availability is supposed to be a balancing factor, but the authors thought it would be. Further, your assumption that a standard action for 7 times the duration minimum is balanced with swift action casting time is flawed. The standard action for seven times the duration is clearly better.

This spell should probably be a 5th. It seems a little powerful for a 4th, considering the combat possibilities.
Sphyre
07-12-04, 05:56 PM Ok lets look at the advantages of this spell:

For caster:
-Extra move for directing a flaming sphere at two things
-Extra move action for obtaining magical items like getting a potion of of your backpack.
-Extra move action for double movement, or casting a fullround spell and maintaining movement

For fighter:
-When the fighter cannot simply 5-foot adjust, it allows the fighter to make a fullround attack, which at 6-20 bab is 1-3 extra attacks at lower BAB. No extra benefits until enemy is dropped.
-Extra movement.
-extra move action for getting items.
-get up from prone and still do a full-attack, if you can't make a DC 35 tumble check.

3.5 haste

For caster
-farther movement
- +1 hit
- +1 AC
- +1 Reflex saves
-When making a fullround attack, one extra attack at full BAB (most likely will hit) This is when you are within 5 feet of striking your foe. Worthless against people who are far away
-transmutes whoever you want in close range.

Scenario:

Battle one big guy. Fighter 1 is hasted, fighter 2 is Swift Stepped.
Round 1:
Fighter 1 charges and has a really good chance to hit.
Fighter 2 delays for wizard to cast switfstep on him, then at the end of the round goes upto the enemy and fullround attacks him, BAB 6? High chance of first hitting, about 25% less of the interative hitting.

Round2:
Fighter 1 has been hasted from a distance by his wizard friend and does a fullround attack with these mods 0/0/-5, A good chance 2 hit, 25% loss for second to hit.
Fighter 2 gains no benefits from Swift step while attacking.

Round3:
Same as Round2 fighter 1 gets an extra attack, while fighter 2 gets no bonus.

Round4:
Enemy trips both characters
Fighter 1 gets up, takes an AoO and attacks
Fighter 2 gets up, takes an AoO and and fullround attacks getting an interative strike.

the enemy falls. This is assuming the enemy can trip and will:
Bonuses in attacks came out as:
Fighter 1: 2 attacks at full BAB, +1 hit, +1 AC, +1 Reflex saves
Fighter 2: 2 attacks at -5 BABs
Fighter 1, aside from +1, +1 AC and +1 reflex saves took advantage of his ability twice
Fighter 2, took advantage of his abilily twice. One was not in his control, had he not been tripped he would have taken advantage of it once.

Strictly worse given there's one big foe, even if he takes advantage of the fullround after a trip.

Lets try many simpler foes, 2 enemies are adjacent to each other and one is a ranged attacker, 20 feet away from the adjacent attackers

Round 1:
Fighter 1 changes dealing a total of half enemy 2's life.
Fighter 2 is fighting a similar group, and waits for his swiftstep, goes upto the 2, and fullround attacks dropping the first one.

Round 2:
Fighter 1 got hasted from a distance and has 3 attacks. He finishes off the first guy and takes down the second guy
Fighter 2 kills the second guy and walks upto the third guy

Round 3:
Fighter 1 charges the third guy, dealing him half his life
Fighter 2: fullround attacks and fells the third guy.

Round 4:
Fighter 1 fullrounds enemy 3, killing him
Fighter 2 has bees looting for 6 seconds.

The scenario that was supposed to be Fighter 2's bonus is:
fighter 1: +1 hit +1 AC +1 reflex saves
Fighter2: 1 iterative attack over fighter 1, and killed the enemies faster by 1 round.
Fighter 1, in the entire encounter took advantage of his haste 1 explicit time, and always with +1 hit and +1 AC and +1 refl saves
Fighter 2, took advantage of swiftstep twice in this encounter.

From this I see balance, both are roughly equal to each other. When I said I needed someone to prove me wrong, I didn't mean that I wanted someone to say "it's unbalanced" but rather give me reasons why one should always pick swift step over haste - if you can't do that then it's in line with haste and should stay a 3rd level spell.
Isthramir
07-12-04, 06:09 PM While I de belive that this spell is more powerful and more flexable than 3.5 haste, if your game allows Greater Slide from Mini's handbook this is not overpowered for a level 3 spell.

I would claim this is because that greater slide spell is also overpowered ... but many would disagree with me.
Sphyre
07-12-04, 06:35 PM I'm sorry, I'm unfamiliar with that spell. As of now, any non-core spell is available, but at the same time has to be subject to my approval.

(I've already banned ghost form from tome and blood, which is the combo of several spells and more and at the same time only a 5th level spell. who WOULDN'T learn it? bah-roken

All of my looking at it, shows that haste is a better spell, unless you're in a situation where extra move actions actually help - then it's marginally better. In many cases I'd rather have an extra attack at full BAB than several extras that are way less than full. Full BAB is just that powerful - if your first hit has a good chance of hitting, so does your haste attack. Iterative attacks at -5 are pretty good to hit but -10 and -15 really don't hit that often at all depending on who you're attacking.
Isthramir
07-12-04, 06:45 PM Greater Slide is I belive a Sor/Wiz 2 spell. Can be cast on any target in medium range and it moves them up to 20", although they can make a save to avoid being moved (I may have lots of the details wrong but that's the gist of the spell).

If you pit the Hasted fighter vs the Swift stepped fighter in a duel the Hasted fighter would get at best 1 Full + 1 attack or 2 Single attacks each 2 rounds and the swift stepped fighter would get a full attack each round. There is very little that you can do with an attack action, let alone an attack action only if useing a full attack action. There is much more that can be done with a move action.
Sphyre
07-12-04, 06:59 PM Pitting a Hasted fighter and a swift stepped fighter against each other would be different depending on what each did.

Hasted fighter delays until swift stepped fighter and the hasted fighter gets +1 to hit +1 AC +1 extra attack at highest BAB, while swift stepped gets nothing

Hasted fighter charges swift stepped fighter, and the swift stepped fighter gains no benefits of swift step unless he uses his action to move away - which provokes an AoO giving the hasted fighter a total of 2 attacks at full BAB against his fullround.

Mechanically, I find Haste to be superior, but versatility in mobility, swift step wins out.

I like greater slide, it sounds fun. Save to negate and it's nowhere near broken, unless perhaps you can stick them in a wall and force 4d6 damage on them in addtion to moving them.
Isthramir
07-12-04, 07:27 PM Greater slide is often used to move friendly targets around the battlefield to get full attack actions.

Of course the figter would withdraw. If the hasted fighter delayed until after the swifted fighter he would find himself subject to one attack and still not in range. AoOs from movement can be avoided in half a dozen ways. including a few ranks in Tumble.

Perhaps if you limited the flexability of the move action it might come closer to the power of haste. Feel free to use it ... there are lots of spells that are overshadowed by spells of the same or lower level, but if this was available in any of my campeigns I wouldn't be very likely to take haste or boots of speed.

Just as a suggestion for a limitation (although I still think swift step would prove more valuable) try allowing a bonus standard move only before a full attack action.
Sphyre
07-12-04, 11:11 PM Originally posted by Isthramir
Greater slide is often used to move friendly targets around the battlefield to get full attack actions.

That sounds like it's nasty with haste, worthless with Swift Step though. but - you see it's the wizard's action. Doesn't particularly seem imbalanced to add iteritive strikes to the fighter for a round at the cost of your standard action which could be done casting a Scorching Ray, also a 2nd level spell.

Of course the figter would withdraw. If the hasted fighter delayed until after the swifted fighter he would find himself subject to one attack and still not in range. AoOs from movement can be avoided in half a dozen ways. including a few ranks in Tumble.

Depending on the fighter, yes you have a point, but then the swift step fighter isnt doing much other than spring attacking - in which the hasted fighter can charge or move and attack getting a 1 for one attack in. But if the Swift Stepped fighter were to fullround and then move away with a tumble each time, he'd have a slight advantage. - Depending on Tumbling ability.

Thank you, that's the kind of argument I was looking for to break it. I'm not sure if it's enough to change it to 4th level, but it's a start. Not all characters will have tumble. Any other ways to abuse it?

Just as a suggestion for a limitation (although I still think swift step would prove more valuable) try allowing a bonus standard move only before a full attack action.

It could be done, but I'd prefer it not to be simply a Lion's Charge with a duration of 1 round/level.
Vaelan
07-13-04, 12:28 AM Round2:
...
Fighter 2 gains no benefits from Swift step while attacking.

Fighter 2 would Full Attack then MOVE AWAY. He would take an AoO for doing so, but next round Fighter 1 only gets a single attack, as opposed to doing a Full Attack and getting his additional attack from Haste.

This application alone bumps it up to at least a 4th.
IceFractal
07-13-04, 02:35 AM Keep in mind, this spell is 1 person vs hasting the whole party. That's a big difference.

3rd seems about right.
Sphyre
07-13-04, 03:33 AM Although that may be true, I think the versatility of being able to be garunteed a fullround action in almost any round proves that it's a formidable spell. I'm sure a Cerebremancer would love this spell with being able to meditate and regain two focii a round with the proper feats. Regardless, I think it's safe to say it'd still be used at level 4, regardless of it only affecting one creature.

Thank you everyone for helping me come to the conclusion on what level it should be. I think i'll add an enhancement bonus to speed by 10 feet also, for comensation of going up a whole level and be more speed based as opposed to the regular haste bonuses. Not to mention enhancment bonuses to speed don't stack and most bonuses to speed ARE enhancement bonuses.

Any beefs with it now? My ears are still open.
smrtgmp
07-13-04, 04:37 AM My only complaint is that its a bard spell. Other than that, it seems fine to me.
BlackSmith
07-13-04, 07:24 AM Originally posted by Sphyre
-When making a fullround attack, one extra attack at full BAB (most likely will hit) This is when you are within 5 feet of striking your foe. Worthless against people who are far away.
Not true.
SRD: SpellsH-L
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature�s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can�t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)thus creature with reach 20ft totaly benefits from haste and can strike foes that are more than 5ft away.

side of that, it belongs to 3rd lvl.

compared to haste.
one move action more to one creature with touch range VS increase # of attacks, increase of defence, increased to-hit, increased Ref save, whole party effect with no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart.

witch one to take?
at the end it comes to PARTYS benefit vs ONE creatures benefit.
i would still take haste even if our rouge cryes that he wants to be able to make two feints in one round.
(you greedy halfling, get expert tactican and stop whining)
Sphyre
07-14-04, 01:53 AM Blacksmith,

I was assuming human fighter with a melee weapon. Reach and range weapons are a different story. It's not that I didn't consider it, it's that without balancing with respect to something you can't even start to compare. If your point was to nitpick, you completely succeeded at wasting both your and my time.

On another note - I find it amusing that whatever it's at, someone whines that it shouldn't be what I put it at. I'm changing it to my own version without people to know what it is so people can't complain about a spell that doesn't even exist.

smrtgmp, Haste is also a bard spell, one of a bard's things is buffing. There's no reason why it shouldn't be a bard spell.
smrtgmp
07-14-04, 02:07 AM Edited to remove asinine, derogatory comments.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sphyre 07-11-04, 05:04 PM	Swift Step Transmutation Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: One living creature Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Fortitude Negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) A creature with Swift Step cast on him moves abnormally faster than normal. The creature may take an extra move action (to move or make a move equivilent) each round while quickened. This creature also gains an enhancement bonus to his or her speed by 10 ft. This effect does not stack with haste, and if the creature is subject to both haste and Swift step he chooses only one to take effect and cannot choose again until another one is cast on him or the duration expires for one. Swift step does not stack with any other ability that grants additional move or standard actions in a round. Swift Step counters and dispells Slow, and Slow counters and dispells Swift Step with a successful dispel check (as the dispel magic spell. Swift step is higher level so countering and dispelling with slow does not always work) Material Component: A pinch of grease. New Item: Boots of Many Feet: As a free action the wearer can tap the front of the boots together to gain the benefits of Swift Step for that round. He may do this upto 10 times a day. Modetrate transmutation; CL 10; Craft Wonderous Item, Swift Step; Price 12,000 gp; Weight 1 lb. Behind the curtain Pricing: Price of Boots of speed seem to be by the equation (spell level * caster level * 800) Spell level 3 caster level 5 (minimum) = 12,000 gp Hence the equation for a spell that has duration 1 round/level activated as a free action for round and has 10 need not be continuous rounds for a day is spell levelcaster level800. Going by this the Boots of Many Feet are 12,000 gold (3 * 5 * 800) Out of game balancing of the spell: Back in 3.0 haste did everything, and was horribly broken. But the one thing Fighters and the like, liked most about haste was taking the extra action to move up to the target so that he could full attack at later levels, and at earlier levels he would take the benifits of the extra attack before he had iteritive attacks. That's what prompted me to want to make this spell the most My biggest question is balancing this spell against all other hasting spells: Lions Charge (and psionic variant), Hustle, haste. They are all 3rd level spells. All of them except haste are swift actions that grant the bonus once, while haste takes a standard action to give the benefit for round/level. I don't see this as entirely too powerful because at level 5 where the spell becomes available, the fighters don't have an iteritive attack yet, nor do they get more than one until 11th level. Rather than flames for people who wouldn't ever allow a non-core spell to be added to their game, I would rather appriciate insight from others based on what they think of the idea and if they think it's balanced for the level spell it is. I'm considering having it be a 4th level spell, but does it belong there? (In that case the item would cost more) Thanks for your insight.
[GSV] Kirstar 07-12-04, 03:32 AM	make it a couple of levels higher and called in IMPROVED HASTE or something. give those under its effects an initiative bonus, refelex save bonus and ac bonus. also give them thier additional move action. BUT, restrict spells caster to one spell per round still.
Sildatorak 07-12-04, 04:08 AM	At best it gives a character 6 extra attacks (high level TWF warrior). For a moderate leveled character it is probably translating into two or three extra attacks, or going full attack on someone and still getting the heck out. Comparing that to Haste's one extra attack if you get to do a full attack, I think it should probably be a fourth level spell.
Sphyre 07-12-04, 04:31 AM	As much as I'd like to see eye to eye with you, I don't. Improved haste is not what I'm trying to do here. BUT, restrict spells caster to one spell per round still. all it's adding is a move action, which is rarely ever an attack, and never a spell. Really, that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm trying to add an option to haste, not add on it. Haste gives 1 extra attack at the full base attack bonus on a full round attack, along with other bonuses. Against one big target or people close together, it's one round of 1 attack, and then several of full round attacks that are strong Swift Step gives 0-7 extra attacks depending on the person, but lets balance it for the regular full BAB, so thats 0-3 extra attacks at -5/-10/-15. This is only when you're threatening greater than 5 feet away from your opponent. Which means it's more front loaded at the beginning, but has no returns on consecutive turns, much less it grants iterative attacks as opposed to full BAB attacks. This is why I think it's balanced at this level, but I need someone to convince me that that it's not in line with a 3rd level spell to change it.
[GSV] Kirstar 07-12-04, 05:31 AM	its imply another version of haste but better, so it needs be to at least one level greater. its extra attacks vs 1 extra attack. so it should be at least 4th level. by adding acouple of additional bit you could make it a powerful 5th level instead of a week 4th level. it sould definitely not be 3rd, or whats the point of haste ?
Vaelan 07-12-04, 07:48 AM	3.5 Haste doubles your movement rate. If I remember correctly, the 3.0 version did not do this. Looking at this analytically, taking out the extra action for balance reasons and then putting something so similar in implies that being able to move and make a full attack is too powerful for the spell. Also, Hustle, a similar spell, is a third level EGOIST spell. Discipline powers are often lower level or more powerful than they would be if they were spells and thus available to everyone. I don't know WHY limited availability is supposed to be a balancing factor, but the authors thought it would be. Further, your assumption that a standard action for 7 times the duration minimum is balanced with swift action casting time is flawed. The standard action for seven times the duration is clearly better. This spell should probably be a 5th. It seems a little powerful for a 4th, considering the combat possibilities.
Sphyre 07-12-04, 05:56 PM	Ok lets look at the advantages of this spell: For caster: -Extra move for directing a flaming sphere at two things -Extra move action for obtaining magical items like getting a potion of of your backpack. -Extra move action for double movement, or casting a fullround spell and maintaining movement For fighter: -When the fighter cannot simply 5-foot adjust, it allows the fighter to make a fullround attack, which at 6-20 bab is 1-3 extra attacks at lower BAB. No extra benefits until enemy is dropped. -Extra movement. -extra move action for getting items. -get up from prone and still do a full-attack, if you can't make a DC 35 tumble check. 3.5 haste For caster -farther movement - +1 hit - +1 AC - +1 Reflex saves -When making a fullround attack, one extra attack at full BAB (most likely will hit) This is when you are within 5 feet of striking your foe. Worthless against people who are far away -transmutes whoever you want in close range. Scenario: Battle one big guy. Fighter 1 is hasted, fighter 2 is Swift Stepped. Round 1: Fighter 1 charges and has a really good chance to hit. Fighter 2 delays for wizard to cast switfstep on him, then at the end of the round goes upto the enemy and fullround attacks him, BAB 6? High chance of first hitting, about 25% less of the interative hitting. Round2: Fighter 1 has been hasted from a distance by his wizard friend and does a fullround attack with these mods 0/0/-5, A good chance 2 hit, 25% loss for second to hit. Fighter 2 gains no benefits from Swift step while attacking. Round3: Same as Round2 fighter 1 gets an extra attack, while fighter 2 gets no bonus. Round4: Enemy trips both characters Fighter 1 gets up, takes an AoO and attacks Fighter 2 gets up, takes an AoO and and fullround attacks getting an interative strike. the enemy falls. This is assuming the enemy can trip and will: Bonuses in attacks came out as: Fighter 1: 2 attacks at full BAB, +1 hit, +1 AC, +1 Reflex saves Fighter 2: 2 attacks at -5 BABs Fighter 1, aside from +1, +1 AC and +1 reflex saves took advantage of his ability twice Fighter 2, took advantage of his abilily twice. One was not in his control, had he not been tripped he would have taken advantage of it once. Strictly worse given there's one big foe, even if he takes advantage of the fullround after a trip. Lets try many simpler foes, 2 enemies are adjacent to each other and one is a ranged attacker, 20 feet away from the adjacent attackers Round 1: Fighter 1 changes dealing a total of half enemy 2's life. Fighter 2 is fighting a similar group, and waits for his swiftstep, goes upto the 2, and fullround attacks dropping the first one. Round 2: Fighter 1 got hasted from a distance and has 3 attacks. He finishes off the first guy and takes down the second guy Fighter 2 kills the second guy and walks upto the third guy Round 3: Fighter 1 charges the third guy, dealing him half his life Fighter 2: fullround attacks and fells the third guy. Round 4: Fighter 1 fullrounds enemy 3, killing him Fighter 2 has bees looting for 6 seconds. The scenario that was supposed to be Fighter 2's bonus is: fighter 1: +1 hit +1 AC +1 reflex saves Fighter2: 1 iterative attack over fighter 1, and killed the enemies faster by 1 round. Fighter 1, in the entire encounter took advantage of his haste 1 explicit time, and always with +1 hit and +1 AC and +1 refl saves Fighter 2, took advantage of swiftstep twice in this encounter. From this I see balance, both are roughly equal to each other. When I said I needed someone to prove me wrong, I didn't mean that I wanted someone to say "it's unbalanced" but rather give me reasons why one should always pick swift step over haste - if you can't do that then it's in line with haste and should stay a 3rd level spell.
Isthramir 07-12-04, 06:09 PM	While I de belive that this spell is more powerful and more flexable than 3.5 haste, if your game allows Greater Slide from Mini's handbook this is not overpowered for a level 3 spell. I would claim this is because that greater slide spell is also overpowered ... but many would disagree with me.
Sphyre 07-12-04, 06:35 PM	I'm sorry, I'm unfamiliar with that spell. As of now, any non-core spell is available, but at the same time has to be subject to my approval. (I've already banned ghost form from tome and blood, which is the combo of several spells and more and at the same time only a 5th level spell. who WOULDN'T learn it? bah-roken All of my looking at it, shows that haste is a better spell, unless you're in a situation where extra move actions actually help - then it's marginally better. In many cases I'd rather have an extra attack at full BAB than several extras that are way less than full. Full BAB is just that powerful - if your first hit has a good chance of hitting, so does your haste attack. Iterative attacks at -5 are pretty good to hit but -10 and -15 really don't hit that often at all depending on who you're attacking.
Isthramir 07-12-04, 06:45 PM	Greater Slide is I belive a Sor/Wiz 2 spell. Can be cast on any target in medium range and it moves them up to 20", although they can make a save to avoid being moved (I may have lots of the details wrong but that's the gist of the spell). If you pit the Hasted fighter vs the Swift stepped fighter in a duel the Hasted fighter would get at best 1 Full + 1 attack or 2 Single attacks each 2 rounds and the swift stepped fighter would get a full attack each round. There is very little that you can do with an attack action, let alone an attack action only if useing a full attack action. There is much more that can be done with a move action.
Sphyre 07-12-04, 06:59 PM	Pitting a Hasted fighter and a swift stepped fighter against each other would be different depending on what each did. Hasted fighter delays until swift stepped fighter and the hasted fighter gets +1 to hit +1 AC +1 extra attack at highest BAB, while swift stepped gets nothing Hasted fighter charges swift stepped fighter, and the swift stepped fighter gains no benefits of swift step unless he uses his action to move away - which provokes an AoO giving the hasted fighter a total of 2 attacks at full BAB against his fullround. Mechanically, I find Haste to be superior, but versatility in mobility, swift step wins out. I like greater slide, it sounds fun. Save to negate and it's nowhere near broken, unless perhaps you can stick them in a wall and force 4d6 damage on them in addtion to moving them.
Isthramir 07-12-04, 07:27 PM	Greater slide is often used to move friendly targets around the battlefield to get full attack actions. Of course the figter would withdraw. If the hasted fighter delayed until after the swifted fighter he would find himself subject to one attack and still not in range. AoOs from movement can be avoided in half a dozen ways. including a few ranks in Tumble. Perhaps if you limited the flexability of the move action it might come closer to the power of haste. Feel free to use it ... there are lots of spells that are overshadowed by spells of the same or lower level, but if this was available in any of my campeigns I wouldn't be very likely to take haste or boots of speed. Just as a suggestion for a limitation (although I still think swift step would prove more valuable) try allowing a bonus standard move only before a full attack action.
Sphyre 07-12-04, 11:11 PM	Originally posted by Isthramir Greater slide is often used to move friendly targets around the battlefield to get full attack actions. That sounds like it's nasty with haste, worthless with Swift Step though. but - you see it's the wizard's action. Doesn't particularly seem imbalanced to add iteritive strikes to the fighter for a round at the cost of your standard action which could be done casting a Scorching Ray, also a 2nd level spell. Of course the figter would withdraw. If the hasted fighter delayed until after the swifted fighter he would find himself subject to one attack and still not in range. AoOs from movement can be avoided in half a dozen ways. including a few ranks in Tumble. Depending on the fighter, yes you have a point, but then the swift step fighter isnt doing much other than spring attacking - in which the hasted fighter can charge or move and attack getting a 1 for one attack in. But if the Swift Stepped fighter were to fullround and then move away with a tumble each time, he'd have a slight advantage. - Depending on Tumbling ability. Thank you, that's the kind of argument I was looking for to break it. I'm not sure if it's enough to change it to 4th level, but it's a start. Not all characters will have tumble. Any other ways to abuse it? Just as a suggestion for a limitation (although I still think swift step would prove more valuable) try allowing a bonus standard move only before a full attack action. It could be done, but I'd prefer it not to be simply a Lion's Charge with a duration of 1 round/level.
Vaelan 07-13-04, 12:28 AM	Round2: ... Fighter 2 gains no benefits from Swift step while attacking. Fighter 2 would Full Attack then MOVE AWAY. He would take an AoO for doing so, but next round Fighter 1 only gets a single attack, as opposed to doing a Full Attack and getting his additional attack from Haste. This application alone bumps it up to at least a 4th.
IceFractal 07-13-04, 02:35 AM	Keep in mind, this spell is 1 person vs hasting the whole party. That's a big difference. 3rd seems about right.
Sphyre 07-13-04, 03:33 AM	Although that may be true, I think the versatility of being able to be garunteed a fullround action in almost any round proves that it's a formidable spell. I'm sure a Cerebremancer would love this spell with being able to meditate and regain two focii a round with the proper feats. Regardless, I think it's safe to say it'd still be used at level 4, regardless of it only affecting one creature. Thank you everyone for helping me come to the conclusion on what level it should be. I think i'll add an enhancement bonus to speed by 10 feet also, for comensation of going up a whole level and be more speed based as opposed to the regular haste bonuses. Not to mention enhancment bonuses to speed don't stack and most bonuses to speed ARE enhancement bonuses. Any beefs with it now? My ears are still open.
smrtgmp 07-13-04, 04:37 AM	My only complaint is that its a bard spell. Other than that, it seems fine to me.
BlackSmith 07-13-04, 07:24 AM	Originally posted by Sphyre -When making a fullround attack, one extra attack at full BAB (most likely will hit) This is when you are within 5 feet of striking your foe. Worthless against people who are far away. Not true. SRD: SpellsH-L When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature�s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can�t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)thus creature with reach 20ft totaly benefits from haste and can strike foes that are more than 5ft away. side of that, it belongs to 3rd lvl. compared to haste. one move action more to one creature with touch range VS increase # of attacks, increase of defence, increased to-hit, increased Ref save, whole party effect with no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart. witch one to take? at the end it comes to PARTYS benefit vs ONE creatures benefit. i would still take haste even if our rouge cryes that he wants to be able to make two feints in one round. (you greedy halfling, get expert tactican and stop whining)
Sphyre 07-14-04, 01:53 AM	Blacksmith, I was assuming human fighter with a melee weapon. Reach and range weapons are a different story. It's not that I didn't consider it, it's that without balancing with respect to something you can't even start to compare. If your point was to nitpick, you completely succeeded at wasting both your and my time. On another note - I find it amusing that whatever it's at, someone whines that it shouldn't be what I put it at. I'm changing it to my own version without people to know what it is so people can't complain about a spell that doesn't even exist. smrtgmp, Haste is also a bard spell, one of a bard's things is buffing. There's no reason why it shouldn't be a bard spell.
smrtgmp 07-14-04, 02:07 AM	Edited to remove asinine, derogatory comments.