Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 07-25-04, 06:20 AM	Changed the name and the price based on comments from the gallery. Added Greater Trip Rope in this post and fixed a typo that had animate rope as the prerequite instead of rope trick. Trick Rope: An 8-foot-long silk rope looks like a normal piece of silk rope. Upon command, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free. Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by- 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The item enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space. The rope can be used once per day and lasts for 9 hours. Faint transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, rope trick; Price 6,500gp; Weight 1 lb. Cost to Create: 3,250gp + 260 xp -- Cost breakdown: 2nd level spell x 9th level caster x 1,800gp command word activated / 5 usable once per day = 6,480gp. Round up for ornimental rope and stuff to a nice round 6,500gp. Greater Trick Rope: An 8-foot-long silk rope looks like a normal piece of silk rope. Upon command, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free. Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by- 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The item enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space. There occupants can say in the extradimensional space indefiniately. Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, rope trick; Price 12,000gp; Weight 1 lb. Cost to Create: 6,000gp + 480 xp -- Cost breakdown: 2nd level spell x 3rd level caster x 2,000gp for continuous = 12,000gp
Seeker95 07-25-04, 12:53 PM	I like the idea. I would just call it trick rope or magic rope. However, because this rope acts exactly like the spell rope trick, your pricing is slightly off. It is a 2nd level spell. You do not need to worry about changing it to caster level 9. If you want it to last nine hours, let it last nine hours. It loks like you were pricing the item on animate rope, except that nothing in the description of animate rope allows for the creation of extra-dimensional space. If an existing spell does exactly what you are making the item do, use that spell. Total price = 2 x 3 x 2000 x 2 = 24,000gp if it is usable all the time. 4,800gp if usable for only one hour a day. 9,600gp if usable for two hours a day. If you want it usable for up to nine hours a day, but only one activation, then your price would be 14,400gp (at CL 9) If you want it usable for nine hours total in any given day, divided however you like, I would double this to 28,800gp.
Harmor 07-25-04, 03:49 PM	Actually I forgot to add the multiplier because its not a slotted item. 2nd level spell x 9th level caster x 1,800 command word activated x 2 non-slotted item / 5 usable once per day = 12,960gp Round up because of the finely crafted rope and you have: 13,000gp This item will cast Rope Trick once per day as a 9th level caster.
Seeker95 07-25-04, 04:06 PM	Originally posted by Harmor This item will cast Animate Rope once per day as a 9th level caster. No it doesn't. Nowhere in your description do you describe the effects of an animate rope spell. Where does the little pocket dimenstion come from? You're still using the wrong spell. Animate rope just makes the rope dance around a bit. Rope trick is the spell you want to use. Because they are both 2nd level spells, it doesn't really change the price, but you should still change the spell reference in the requirements.
Harmor 07-25-04, 04:26 PM	Err...Rope Trick (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/spells/Rope_Trick.html)
Seeker95 07-25-04, 09:34 PM	Errr... exactly. Why are you using animate rope to make a rope of rope trick?
Loren Pechtel 07-25-04, 11:25 PM	Originally posted by Harmor Actually I forgot to add the multiplier because its not a slotted item. 2nd level spell x 9th level caster x 1,800 command word activated x 2 non-slotted item / 5 usable once per day = 12,960gp Round up because of the finely crafted rope and you have: 13,000gp This item will cast Rope Trick once per day as a 9th level caster. But this is an item that's held in the hand to use. Why non-slot?
Seeker95 07-26-04, 08:10 AM	Originally posted by Loren Pechtel But this is an item that's held in the hand to use. Why non-slot? Because holding in the hand is not a body slot. You can hold this in the hand while wearing gloves of dexterity
tarkin 07-26-04, 04:33 PM	To make it a slotted item, you would have to tell people which slot it fills, and to avoid a penalty,it would have to be the "appropriate slot" Here are some examples: rope ring (worn on finger until activated, grows a LOT) Rigns can by any magic. Rope Necklace (worn on finger until activated, grows a LOT) - this would require the DM to call the rope trick a "Protective" spell. Not that much of a strecth. Rope Boots. These boots appear to be made of coiled rope. Ipon command, they oncoil, attach themselves into one rope and .... This would be wierd, but the easiest "sell" as being the appropriate slot, the rope trick is after all a "Movement" spell.
Loren Pechtel 07-27-04, 12:01 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Because holding in the hand is not a body slot. You can hold this in the hand while wearing gloves of dexterity But you hold wands etc in the hand also and they don't have the x2 for non-slot. For pricing purposes, something that must be held in the hand doesn't seem to get the non-slot price.
Krynus Ogrebane 07-27-04, 12:36 AM	Originally posted by Loren Pechtel But you hold wands etc in the hand also and they don't have the x2 for non-slot. For pricing purposes, something that must be held in the hand doesn't seem to get the non-slot price. You are exactly right about the price not being multiplied by two, just like swords, shields, etc. aren't. Go here (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/magicitemcreation.htm) for a reasoned explanation from a reliable authority on the matter. It's about halfway down the page, under the "Pricing" section, subtitled "Hands as Chakra".
Harmor 07-27-04, 01:09 AM	They why do ioun stones have a x2 multiplier? Because they a non-slotted Woundrous Item. If it was a ring/rod/armor or weapon/wand/staff then there is no x2 multiplier.
Krynus Ogrebane 07-27-04, 01:29 AM	Originally posted by Harmor: They why do ioun stones have a x2 multiplier? Because they a non-slotted Woundrous Item. If it was a ring/rod/armor or weapon/wand/staff then there is no x2 multiplier. To clarify, here is the relevant information... Quoted from seankreynolds.com: Chakra: "Chakra" is the unofficial WotC term for "space that a magic item uses as defined on DMG page 176"--boots, cloak, amulet, and so on. The pricing guidelines assume that a magic item uses a chakra. An item that doesn't use a chakra (like an ioun stone) costs twice as much as a chakra item. Hands as Chakra: Although not a chakra space listed in the DMG, an item that must be held in a hand to be activated counts as a chakra point. This is because you can only have two hand-chakra items active at once, and to switch to another hand-chakra item you'd have to spend an action to do so (just as if you wanted to put on a different amulet). So, the intrepid armsman, sword in one hand, shield in the other, finds wisdom in the notion of living to fight another day. On his person is just the thing... his enormously useful and practical Trick Rope. In order to activate it, however, he must divest himself of either his sword or shield (i.e.- drop, sheath, or stow away), so that he may retrieve and hold said rope in his hand (a move action) and issue the command word (a standard action). He is still fully capable of wearing his Gloves of Puissant Skill at Arms and his Ring of Impenetrable Aegis, for they do not interfere with his ability to manipulate hand-held items (i.e.- gloves occupy the "glove" chakra, a ring occupies one of the two "ring" chakras... neither of which is the unofficial WotC-referrent "hand" chakras).
Harmor 07-27-04, 02:07 AM	Ok well whatever with this Chakra deal...making an item with the Wondrous Item feat that doesn't use a slot costs x2...period.
Krynus Ogrebane 07-27-04, 02:06 PM	Originally posted by Harmor: Ok well whatever with this Chakra deal...making an item with the Wondrous Item feat that doesn't use a slot costs x2...period. That statement is correct. However, I get the impression that you think this Trick Rope (or any magic rope) is unslotted, when it does use a slot, known unofficially at WOTC as the hand slot, or hand chakra. Now, if this Trick Rope could be activated via command-word while coiled in your backpack (or from across the room), then I'd agree that it is an unslotted item. Ioun Stones are unslotted because they function just like magic clothing without being worn... they spin around your head and provide whatever enhancement/protection that they provide. If you made a purple prism ring, it would cost half as much as a purple prism Ioun Stone, because the ring is using one of the ring slots. In other words, if an item that (when activated/used) must be held in your hand is considered to be "unslotted", then swords and wands should double in market price. They do not. Sean K. Reynolds is a former WOTC employee, and he relayed the method and logic (via his website) that WOTC used to make the pricing guidelines in the DMG. As for pricing this magic item, I'd suggest... SL × CL × 1800 (command-word activated) 2 × 9 × 1800 = 32,400 gp market price For this item, trying to use the once-per-day (1/5) part of the calculation comes off as cheap, in every sense of the word, IMO. While this item does not unconditionally guarantee safe harbor, it virtually does, and that's invaluable.
Seeker95 07-27-04, 04:10 PM	Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane That statement is correct. However, I get the impression that you think this Trick Rope (or any magic rope) is unslotted, when it does use a slot, known unofficially at WOTC as the hand slot, or hand chakra. So, when you climb the rope and enter the dimensional space, you are still holding the rope in your hand? And if I can grab the rope from your hand while you are in the extra-dimensional space, it will cease to function, since it requires that you hold it. And if it ceases to function while you are in the extra-dimensional space, you're screwed, right? Chakra is a load of otyugh droppings, even if SKR is spouting it. Weapons are priced as unslotted items. Check out the cost of a bonus on a weapon versus on armor. It is double. Armor takes up a slot. A weapon does not. Wands are priced as wands. There is no "slot versus not" element because wands have their own pricing structure. If you make a wondrous item, it takes a slot or it doesn't. Held in the hands is not a slot. Worn on the hands is. At best, the "must be held in hand" is an "uncustomary space limitation" causing a 1.5 multiplier.
smrtgmp 07-27-04, 06:04 PM	I dont think slots should even be concidered with an item like this. Its not like its providing any sort of continual benefit, such as rings or ioun stones. Its something that you have to pull out of your gear to animate. Comare it to a rope of climbing. From the SRDRope of Climbing: A 60-foot-long rope of climbing is no thicker than a wand, but it is strong enough to support 3,000 pounds. Upon command, the rope snakes forward, upward, downward, or in any other direction at 10 feet per round, attaching itself securely wherever its owner desires. It can unfasten itself and return in the same manner. A rope of climbing can be commanded to knot or unknot itself. This causes large knots to appear at 1-foot intervals along the rope. Knotting shortens the rope to a 50-foot length until the knots are untied but lowers the DC of Climb checks while using it by 10. A creature must hold one end of the rope when its magic is invoked. Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, animate rope; Price 3,000 gp;Weight 3 lb.Going by the pricing guidlines, this should cost (1 sl x 3 cl x 1800) 5400gp. If you had to double the price to make it non-slotted, that would be 10800gp. Yet it only costs 3000gp. To me doubling the price for the above Trick Rope is inappropriate and unneccesary.
Harmor 07-27-04, 06:16 PM	Lets work backwards so correct me if I'm wrong but a Rope of Climbing is: 1st level spell x 1st level caster x 1,800gp = 1,800gp 3,000 / 1,800 = 1.67 which is approximately a 1.5 multiplier. So the final item was: 1st level spell x 1st level caster x 1,800gp x 1.5 for something = 2,700gp + 300gp for matieral costs = 3,000gp??? Remember the market prices don't necessarily reflect the actually costs in the DMG. I think you may be right and I'm wrong with the x2 multiplier since its not continuous. Maybe there's only a 1.5 multiplier because its "Uncustomary space limitation" like a Helm of Teleportation? Wondrous items that don’t match the affinity for a particular body slot should cost 50% more than wondrous items that match the affinity.
smrtgmp 07-27-04, 06:26 PM	the rope of climbing has a caster level of 3, not 1. Remember the market prices don't necessarily reflect the actually costs in the DMG. I think a more accurate statement would be that prices in the DMG dont often follow the pricing guidelines. In fact, they are generally cheaper than what the guidlines would suggest. Which is why the guidelines are just guidelines. They are there to provide a good starting place, which you can then compare to other items and adjust your pricing figures accordingly. I really dont think there should be any additional multipliers for the item you have proposed, as it seems fairly priced without them. Wondrous items that don’t match the affinity for a particular body slot should cost 50% more than wondrous items that match the affinity. The extra 50% price hike is for items that you wear that provide some sort of continuous benefit but are placed on a part of the body for which they do not have the proper affinity. For instance, if you wanted a belt of dexterity, it would cost 50% more than gloves of dexterity.
Harmor 07-27-04, 06:32 PM	Ok I'm convinced. No x2 multiplier. Item price is 6,500gp.
smrtgmp 07-27-04, 06:35 PM	I'm not sure where you are getting 6500gp. The minimum cost for an item of rope trick would be CL 3 x SL 2 x 1800gp, which would give you a price of 10800gp. I think it would be fair to round down to an even 10K, but 6500 is probably a tad too cheap.
Harmor 07-27-04, 06:42 PM	Here's the cost breakdown: 2nd level spell x 9th level caster x 1,800gp command word activated / 5 usable once per day = 6,480gp Add 20gp for the masterwork silk rope and stuff...and its a nice round 6,500gp. The item can be used once per day for 9 hours (9th level caster instead of 3rd level caster which you're right is the minimum). Dropping out of a Rope Trick every 3 hours would make sleeping kinda difficult. Also the reason I made it 9 hours instead of 8 hours is so it's enough time for casters to pray/memorize spells!!! Viola'. Done.
Harmor 07-27-04, 06:52 PM	Greater Trick Rope: An 8-foot-long silk rope looks like a normal piece of silk rope. Upon command, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free. Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by- 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The item enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space. There occupants can say in the extradimensional space indefiniately. Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, rope trick; Price 12,000gp; Weight 1 lb. Cost breakdown: 2nd level spell x 3rd level caster x 2,000gp for continuous = 12,000gp If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half. There is no reference for a spell that has 1 hour/level so I'll assume that there is none.
Seeker95 07-27-04, 09:38 PM	I still don't understand why a magi rope that duplicates the effects of the rope trick spell uses animate rope instead of rope trick.
Harmor 07-27-04, 10:00 PM	Damit...typo again.
Krynus Ogrebane 07-28-04, 01:37 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95: So, when you climb the rope and enter the dimensional space, you are still holding the rope in your hand? And if I can grab the rope from your hand while you are in the extra-dimensional space, it will cease to function, since it requires that you hold it. And if it ceases to function while you are in the extra-dimensional space, you're screwed, right? Care to explain this non sequitur? I'm not seeing anything relevant. Chakra is a load of otyugh droppings, even if SKR is spouting it. *shrug* Everybody's entitled to their opinions. Weapons are priced as unslotted items. Check out the cost of a bonus on a weapon versus on armor. It is double. Armor takes up a slot. A weapon does not. Wands are priced as wands. There is no "slot versus not" element because wands have their own pricing structure. I don't suppose you find it a logical conclusion to draw that armor has its own pricing structure, and arms have their own pricing structure, n'est pas? If not, why don't magic shields cost twice that of armor? Shields don't require a body slot, according to your reasoning (according to WOTC and SKR, they require the unofficial hand slot). If you make a wondrous item, it takes a slot or it doesn't. Held in the hands is not a slot. Worn on the hands is. At best, the "must be held in hand" is an "uncustomary space limitation" causing a 1.5 multiplier. I see. What you're saying is to never mind what methods and reasons WOTC used to calculate a large number of the magic item prices, even if it's confirmed by a former employee and game designer. I have nothing to say to that except... wow, just... wow. Originally posted by smrtgmp: I think a more accurate statement would be that prices in the DMG dont often follow the pricing guidelines. In fact, they are generally cheaper than what the guidlines would suggest. Which is why the guidelines are just guidelines. They are there to provide a good starting place, which you can then compare to other items and adjust your pricing figures accordingly. Best thing I've seen yet. Although there's not much to compare it to... Daern's Instant Fortress and the Rod of Security are as close as I've seen, but they provide substantially more than a relatively simple Rope Trick, and their prices reflect that. IMO though, 6500 gp is way too cheap.