3.5 update to Hunter's Mercy? [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 update to Hunter's Mercy? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kyaran
11-18-03, 05:11 PM Here's the deal:
My DM doesn't like the spell Hunter's Mercy, and insists that there must be a 3.5 updated version of it that's less powerful than the listed version. :confused:

As it is, I'm not allowed to use it as written. Instead of giving an auto-hit/auto-threat, it gives a +5 to attack and a hit counts as a threat.

I'm looking for anyone that has this supposed 'updated' version, or can give me some sort of reasoning or proof that the original in 3.5 is perfectly fine.

Thanks. ;)
kreynolds
11-18-03, 05:25 PM Originally posted by Kyaran
My DM doesn't like the spell Hunter's Mercy, and insists that there must be a 3.5 updated version of it that's less powerful than the listed version. :confused:

His insistence is misguided.

Originally posted by Kyaran
As it is, I'm not allowed to use it as written. Instead of giving an auto-hit/auto-threat, it gives a +5 to attack and a hit counts as a threat.

A lot of people have a problem with it at first glance, but it really isn't bad. There are a few threads here and over at the ENWorld boards that discuss it.
Seeker95
11-18-03, 09:16 PM You may get your wish in the soon-to-hit-the-shelves Complete Warrior. It will include combat spells.
kreynolds
11-18-03, 09:29 PM True enough.

Hey...maybe it'll be a swift action to cast. ;)
IceFractal
11-18-03, 10:54 PM Unless I'm reading it wrong, its an auto hit, which by itself is pretty ridiculous, and an auto-crit.

So an archer could auto-hit from the maximum distance (10 range increments), whereas with True Strike he'd only negate the penalties, also, think of all the magic effects and class features that activate on a crit! True, many don't apply to ranged weapons but an auto-crit is still very powerful.

I would change it to +20 to hit (maaaaybe auto-hit if you don't plan on epic, a first level spell auto-hitting a 30th level character is just wrong). And a successful hit counts as a crit for damage purposes, but special crit effects don't active unless it was a 'natural crit' (e.g. would have been a critical threat without the spell).
Kyaran
11-18-03, 11:33 PM Originally posted by IceFractal
Unless I'm reading it wrongYes. ;)
its an auto hitYes.
and an auto-critNo.

Yes, it is a bit more than True Strike, but it's also a Ranger spell. Rangers don't get much in the way of truly effective offensive magic, and they can't do it very many times. For the hunter-y flavor of the Ranger it's quite appropriate, if a tiny bit extra-happy.

BTW, I much prefer your edited version to the over-nerfed version I've been having to use. :D
Bloodtide_the_Red
11-19-03, 07:09 AM i've never seen the 'overpowerness' of this spell. So your ranger guy can,up to 5 times a day(that would be a 20th level ranger with a wisdom of 20) can hit a target and do a crit to it. And.....?

So an arrow does 1-8 damage, can have up to a +5 magic bonus, and lets say another +5 from all kinds of other stacable effects. So that's 11-18 points of damage. Then a crit is x3 the arrows damage..so 3D8+10......for our total of 13-34. Humm....well that would take out a 1st level goblin warrior, and it would put a dent in a Hill giant....and would, of course, scratch the scale of a dragon.
Oh and for overkill it could be a +5 arrow of flaming burst with the +2d10 damage....as long as it was not immune to fire damage.
So is that realy that much damage? Does not look like it to me...Maybe you(or more to the point your DM) needs to run more then one encounter per day. I somehow think that's the big problem here. Where the Pc's get up, walk around, fight one encounter......then immediatly rest(because they are not at full strgenth now having lost hp's and use spells/abilites)...for days.....and the DM lets them do so.......

BT
Zherog
11-19-03, 08:05 AM Hunter's Mercy makes any hit an auto-threat. You still need to roll to confirm whether or not the hit is a critical.

It's a powerful spell that is balanced by the fact rangers do not get their spells until 4th level.
Llathos
11-19-03, 01:30 PM Here's an example from the munchkin board of how this spell ability can be exploited to insane gains:

10th level:
Ranger 1/Fighter 4/Deepwood Sniper 2/Peerless Archer 3
Feats:
PBS
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Weapon Focus
Weapon Spec
Far Shot
Quick Draw
Manyshot

Dex 20

Invisible
Wand of Hunter’s Mercy
+2 Shocking Burst Comp Longbow (19-20 x4)
Bracers of Archery

@25 ft:

+9 attack to confirm crit. (+5 dex, +1 WF, +1 PBS, +2 Bracers of Archery, -2 Manyshot)

Dmg: 4d8 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 3d10 + 8 + 40 + 4 + 8 + 4 + 1d8 + 1d6 + 2 + 10 + 1 + 2 + 1
Total: 5d8 + 3d6 + 3d10 + 80 (15 + 50 + 5 + 10)
Avg Dmg: 129.5
Max Dmg: 168
Min Dmg: 91
Dunbar
11-19-03, 02:55 PM A ranger with a wand of hunter's mercy is downright deadly. With good hide/move silently scores, he is the ultimate hunter. Auto-hit (and occasionally crit) your prey from 1000ft away. Your prey will have little to no chance to see you (even with the -20 penalty for hiding after sniping). And with a wand (only 750 gps!) you can do it all day.

And, that wand is useable by any 1st level ranger. That's why 1 level of ranger for archers are all the rage on the character optimization boards.

Is it too much for a 1st level ranger spell? I dunno...maybe. It's certainly really powerful, but I'm a fan of ranger-only and paladin-only spells being more powerful than expected for their level. But it's the wands of hunter's mercy and the ease with which you can pick up a level of ranger that give me pause.
Heron_Marked_Blade
11-19-03, 03:18 PM If you have a character built like that, with that equipment....I hate to break it to you, but Hunter's Mercy is the least of your worries in that campaign.

A few things to think about:
- it takes a standard action to use the wand
- Hunter's Mercy applies only to the next attack (not full attack...single attack)
- you still have to confirm that critical threat....without the benefit of the spell

I don't think it's so incredibly overpowering, personally.

Lest someone suggest that Hunter's Mercy apply to all arrows shot using Manyshot (since they only use one attack roll)....NO. NO. NO.

You'd only apply Sneak Attack damage to one of those arrows. The mechanic's the same: you'd only apply Hunter's Mercy to the first arrow, so only it would threaten a critical. The second arrow would use the Manyshot attack roll as usual.
tarkin
11-19-03, 03:34 PM Difference between Hunter's Mercy and True Strike:

1) True Strike is a Sorc/Wiz spell, while HM is a Ranger spell.
So what?

2) True Strike works with any weapon, while HM only works on a bow. IMPORTANT No Power Attack. No Combat Expertise. Etc. etc. etc. HM is less powerfull here than a TS.

3) TS does not help if your DM sends you up against a creature that is ridiculously over powered creature that he has no business sending you up against. HM will help. HM is more powerfull, but only if your DM is a moron.

4) TS should guarante a hit, and if your d20 roll is within your threat range, guarante a crit. HM guarantees a hit and if your next d20 would be a hit, then you get a crit. This is a slight benefit to those people that have not maxed out their threat range. As either spell is more helpfull for a hard to hit target, TS's limitation of rolling the d20 in your threat range SHOULD be more likely to be helpfull. After all using HM when you need a 12 or better to hit is stupid. Smart people save the TS or HM for when they have a hard time hitting, so the chance of a crit should be about the same for TS or HM. In fact, TS is easier to abuse, simply by getting a super large crit range, practically guaranteeing a crit. HM only gives a better chance of a crit if you did not need the HM to hit the target in the first place, making it a more balanced spell.

Conclusion: Hunters Mercy is a more balanced spell, less likely to be abused than True Strike. Unless your DM is sending you upa against creatures whose AC is 10 points above what you can expect to hit, it causes less problems than TS does.
Llathos
11-19-03, 04:18 PM Correct me if I'm wrong (which I may be), but doesn't one of the above PrCs give you Power Attack on your bow?

It's definitily an ability granted by one of them...

Deepwood
Peerless Archer
Order of Bow Initiate
etc...
IceFractal
11-19-03, 07:37 PM Is it too powerful? Let's observe:

Knowing that his archnemesis, Bob the Blue, is going to be traveling along a certain road on a certain day, Robert the Red get some supplies ready:

Heavy Crossbow: 50 gp
Potion of Hunter's Mercy: 50 gp
Peasant to shoot crossbow: pretty much nil
Max. Range: 1200 feet
Damage: 1d10

Just have the peasants (-4 penalty, but it doesn't matter), stand about 1000' away from the road and
be ready to shoot. All the shots will hit except for the 1 in 20 peasants who fumble, but the 1 in 20 peasants who critical will make up for those.

So thats basically 1d10 damage per 100 gp, which doesn't seem like that great a deal, but consider an assassin's guild attempting to murder the king. Suddenly spending 10,000gp to do 100d10 damage, with pretty much no way to avoid it, doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

The fact is that potions of hunter's mercy are cheaper than hiring a qualified warrior, and those guaranteed hits really build up when you have 1,000 peasants.
Ertai Planeswalker
11-19-03, 08:04 PM NM
Ertai Planeswalker
11-19-03, 08:05 PM Originally posted by IceFractal
Is it too powerful? Let's observe:

Knowing that his archnemesis, Bob the Blue, is going to be traveling along a certain road on a certain day, Robert the Red get some supplies ready:

Heavy Crossbow: 50 gp
Potion of Hunter's Mercy: 50 gp
Peasant to shoot crossbow: pretty much nil
Max. Range: 1200 feet
Damage: 1d10

Just have the peasants (-4 penalty, but it doesn't matter), stand about 1000' away from the road and
be ready to shoot. All the shots will hit except for the 1 in 20 peasants who fumble, but the 1 in 20 peasants who critical will make up for those.

So thats basically 1d10 damage per 100 gp, which doesn't seem like that great a deal, but consider an assassin's guild attempting to murder the king. Suddenly spending 10,000gp to do 100d10 damage, with pretty much no way to avoid it, doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

The fact is that potions of hunter's mercy are cheaper than hiring a qualified warrior, and those guaranteed hits really build up when you have 1,000 peasants.

And that ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a strawman.

Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade
- you still have to confirm that critical threat....without the benefit of the spell

I do not have the spell in front of me, so i could be wrong, but i think you are wrong here. A crit confirmation is always made with the same bonuses that applied to the attack roll it originated from. It does so with True Strike, why would this be any different?
Sancus
11-19-03, 08:51 PM Wand of Hunter’s Mercy

Really. Wow. And where did you get this Wand? Your Ranger build doesn't appear to have the Create Wand feat...

What, you just assume that there are a whole bunch of Rangers somewhere manufacturing cheap wands for you to buy?

But why? Your own ranger didn't take the feat.... why would they?

Wands and Potions of Hunter's Mercy are all very well but they have to _come_ from _somewhere_, you can't just pull them out of thin air.

+9 attack to confirm crit. (+5 dex, +1 WF, +1 PBS, +2 Bracers of Archery, -2 Manyshot)

I hope you realize you only crit on one arrow of the Manyshot, not all of them, which it doesn't look like you realize by the damage lists in your post.

I do not have the spell in front of me, so i could be wrong, but i think you are wrong here. A crit confirmation is always made with the same bonuses that applied to the attack roll it originated from. It does so with True Strike, why would this be any different?

This is correct, however, the spell doesn't provide any benefits to your threat roll, only to your roll to hit. So you roll the threat with no bonuses.
Bloodtide_the_Red
11-19-03, 09:58 PM ....an example from the munchkin board of how this spell ability can be exploited to insane gains:

Well, I'd point out that you can do one of theas 'insane bulids' with just about anything(ok, not anything..but you get the point). This bulid is an example of a ranger that can just about only shoot his bow, but he has put everything into it.
Buliding a good character is par of the whole D&D thing right? If I take spell focus in evocation, it's a good idea to take an evocation spell or two(not say to myself it would be too 'unblanced' and take only divination spells).

The spell itself is not clear on the 'hit' part. It says '''Your next attack with the bow hits'' then in the next line says '''If you don't hit in the round following the casting then the spell effect is wasted.''' It's not in any thing i've seen officaly, but it does look like the word ''If'' is missing before ''your next attack....though you'd need to change the 'and' to 'it'.

BT
Kyaran
11-19-03, 10:06 PM Originally posted by Bloodtide_the_Red
The spell itself is not clear on the 'hit' part. It says '''Your next attack with the bow hits'' then in the next line says '''If you don't hit in the round following the casting then the spell effect is wasted.''' It's not in any thing i've seen officaly, but it does look like the word ''If'' is missing before ''your next attack....though you'd need to change the 'and' to 'it'.

No, it's quite clear. It doesn't require an initial attack roll.

The sentence in question is:
"Your next attack with the bow (if it is made before the end of the next round) hits and automatically threatens a critical hit."

Taking out the parenthetical part to reduce confusion:
"Your next attack with the bow hits and automatically threatens a critical hit."

If you don't make an attack, you obviously don't hit anything, and the spell expires.
ksbsnowowl
11-20-03, 12:35 AM Originally posted by Sancus
Really. Wow. And where did you get this Wand? Your Ranger build doesn't appear to have the Create Wand feat...

What, you just assume that there are a whole bunch of Rangers somewhere manufacturing cheap wands for you to buy?

But why? Your own ranger didn't take the feat.... why would they?

Wands and Potions of Hunter's Mercy are all very well but they have to _come_ from _somewhere_, you can't just pull them out of thin air.I was quoted by Llathos, I'm the one who originally posted that exact example in another thread.

I will simply give you the same answer I gave last time someone brought this up. You really have two options. You could take the leadership feat and get a ranger cohort. I'm sure that you could convince him to see the benefit to himself and the rest of the party to get the craft wand feat. He would be able to aid himself and you with wands to increase your archery abilities, and he could aid the entire party by making wands of cure spells and various other helpful spells. Granted, you would be 12th or higher level before he could craft wands, but it would still work. Alternatively, you could get a multiclasses ranger 4/cleric or druid 5 and he could craft them sooner.

Or, you could instead start the build ranger 4/ fighter 1. Sure, you lose weap. spec, but in a 3.5 game that is the only feat you would be short. Now you can cast the spell yourself.

Really, it shouldn't be that big of a problem unless your DM is prone to being absolutely unreasonable and obtuse.

I hope you realize you only crit on one arrow of the Manyshot, not all of them, which it doesn't look like you realize by the damage lists in your post.

The second arrow from manyshot was not multiplied on the critical. You have to remember that the DWS levels give the character a x4 crit multiplier with bows. I'll copy/paste the damage line and list out the sources.

Dmg: 4d8(first arrow) + 1d6(sneak attack) + 1d6(shocking) + 3d10(burst) + 8(magical bonus) + 40(Power Shot) + 4(PBS) + 8(weap. spec.) + 4(bracers of archery) + 1d8 + 1d6 + 2 + 10 + 1 + 2 + 1

Everything after that (the 1d8 + 1d6.....) is composed of the exact same (but not multiplied) sources for the second arrow, save sneak attack, which doesn't apply.
Hypersmurf
11-20-03, 01:01 AM Really. Wow. And where did you get this Wand? Your Ranger build doesn't appear to have the Create Wand feat...

Hmm? You find a wizard with the feat, and pay him to make the wand, while you prepare the spell each day and cooperate in the creation.

The prerequisites can be supplied by the creator, or by another caster cooperating, or even from a wand or scroll...

-Hyp.
ksbsnowowl
11-20-03, 01:18 AM Indeed they can.

I had forgotten about this rule, thank you Hyp.

For those interested it is mentioned on page 241 of the 3.0 DMG.

Also note, a wand of Hunter's Mercy cost 1500 GP, not 750. The minimum level at which it can be cast is 2.
kreynolds
11-20-03, 08:03 AM Originally posted by IceFractal
The fact is that potions of hunter's mercy are...

...impossible to make. It's a personal spell.
Llathos
11-20-03, 10:28 AM I'm a bit fuzzy on the power Shot bit...

I'm assuming that's the power attack with the bow maneuver, but I was pretty sure power attack only worked up to your BAB, regardless of your other bonuses from magic, abilities, etc...
ksbsnowowl
11-20-03, 10:39 AM Indeed, Power shot is the ranged Power Attack ability. And yes, it does work only up to your BAB, but just like power attack, the full value would get multiplied on any crit. The character is 10th level with a BAB of 10. He also has a x4 crit multiplier with a bow. Power shot for 10 * 4 damage = 40.
tarkin
11-20-03, 11:47 AM And Power Shot is a prestige class ability, making it MUCH rarer than Power Attack, and such abilities are generally acknoweldged to be more powerfull than feats.

Here is a simple comparison. At 6th level, a 60% chance to hit is reasonable for the first shot, 35% chance at 2nd iterative shot, with rapid shot that becomes 50%, 50%, 25%.

1) You are in a fight. no surprise or anything stupid like that where you can make up stupid house rules about activating magic items not ending surprise.

2) You use HM. first round you cast the spell HM, then next round take one shot that will hit with a 50% chance of triple damage, plus one shot with a 50% to hit plus one shot with 25% to hit. Damage is 1+ (.5*2) + .5 + .25 = 2.75

3) Or you can forget about HM, and fire 1 at 50% + 1 at 50% + 1 at 25% for two rounds. .5+.5+.25 + .5 + .5 + .25 = 2.5

Your net gain for casting the spell is 1/4 of a hit. Big deal. AND if you cast it on a creature that is immune to crits, you do worse than you would have normally.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kyaran 11-18-03, 05:11 PM	Here's the deal: My DM doesn't like the spell Hunter's Mercy, and insists that there must be a 3.5 updated version of it that's less powerful than the listed version. :confused: As it is, I'm not allowed to use it as written. Instead of giving an auto-hit/auto-threat, it gives a +5 to attack and a hit counts as a threat. I'm looking for anyone that has this supposed 'updated' version, or can give me some sort of reasoning or proof that the original in 3.5 is perfectly fine. Thanks. ;)
kreynolds 11-18-03, 05:25 PM	Originally posted by Kyaran My DM doesn't like the spell Hunter's Mercy, and insists that there must be a 3.5 updated version of it that's less powerful than the listed version. :confused: His insistence is misguided. Originally posted by Kyaran As it is, I'm not allowed to use it as written. Instead of giving an auto-hit/auto-threat, it gives a +5 to attack and a hit counts as a threat. A lot of people have a problem with it at first glance, but it really isn't bad. There are a few threads here and over at the ENWorld boards that discuss it.
Seeker95 11-18-03, 09:16 PM	You may get your wish in the soon-to-hit-the-shelves Complete Warrior. It will include combat spells.
kreynolds 11-18-03, 09:29 PM	True enough. Hey...maybe it'll be a swift action to cast. ;)
IceFractal 11-18-03, 10:54 PM	Unless I'm reading it wrong, its an auto hit, which by itself is pretty ridiculous, and an auto-crit. So an archer could auto-hit from the maximum distance (10 range increments), whereas with True Strike he'd only negate the penalties, also, think of all the magic effects and class features that activate on a crit! True, many don't apply to ranged weapons but an auto-crit is still very powerful. I would change it to +20 to hit (maaaaybe auto-hit if you don't plan on epic, a first level spell auto-hitting a 30th level character is just wrong). And a successful hit counts as a crit for damage purposes, but special crit effects don't active unless it was a 'natural crit' (e.g. would have been a critical threat without the spell).
Kyaran 11-18-03, 11:33 PM	Originally posted by IceFractal Unless I'm reading it wrongYes. ;) its an auto hitYes. and an auto-critNo. Yes, it is a bit more than True Strike, but it's also a Ranger spell. Rangers don't get much in the way of truly effective offensive magic, and they can't do it very many times. For the hunter-y flavor of the Ranger it's quite appropriate, if a tiny bit extra-happy. BTW, I much prefer your edited version to the over-nerfed version I've been having to use. :D
Bloodtide_the_Red 11-19-03, 07:09 AM	i've never seen the 'overpowerness' of this spell. So your ranger guy can,up to 5 times a day(that would be a 20th level ranger with a wisdom of 20) can hit a target and do a crit to it. And.....? So an arrow does 1-8 damage, can have up to a +5 magic bonus, and lets say another +5 from all kinds of other stacable effects. So that's 11-18 points of damage. Then a crit is x3 the arrows damage..so 3D8+10......for our total of 13-34. Humm....well that would take out a 1st level goblin warrior, and it would put a dent in a Hill giant....and would, of course, scratch the scale of a dragon. Oh and for overkill it could be a +5 arrow of flaming burst with the +2d10 damage....as long as it was not immune to fire damage. So is that realy that much damage? Does not look like it to me...Maybe you(or more to the point your DM) needs to run more then one encounter per day. I somehow think that's the big problem here. Where the Pc's get up, walk around, fight one encounter......then immediatly rest(because they are not at full strgenth now having lost hp's and use spells/abilites)...for days.....and the DM lets them do so....... BT
Zherog 11-19-03, 08:05 AM	Hunter's Mercy makes any hit an auto-threat. You still need to roll to confirm whether or not the hit is a critical. It's a powerful spell that is balanced by the fact rangers do not get their spells until 4th level.
Llathos 11-19-03, 01:30 PM	Here's an example from the munchkin board of how this spell ability can be exploited to insane gains: 10th level: Ranger 1/Fighter 4/Deepwood Sniper 2/Peerless Archer 3 Feats: PBS Rapid Shot Precise Shot Weapon Focus Weapon Spec Far Shot Quick Draw Manyshot Dex 20 Invisible Wand of Hunter’s Mercy +2 Shocking Burst Comp Longbow (19-20 x4) Bracers of Archery @25 ft: +9 attack to confirm crit. (+5 dex, +1 WF, +1 PBS, +2 Bracers of Archery, -2 Manyshot) Dmg: 4d8 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 3d10 + 8 + 40 + 4 + 8 + 4 + 1d8 + 1d6 + 2 + 10 + 1 + 2 + 1 Total: 5d8 + 3d6 + 3d10 + 80 (15 + 50 + 5 + 10) Avg Dmg: 129.5 Max Dmg: 168 Min Dmg: 91
Dunbar 11-19-03, 02:55 PM	A ranger with a wand of hunter's mercy is downright deadly. With good hide/move silently scores, he is the ultimate hunter. Auto-hit (and occasionally crit) your prey from 1000ft away. Your prey will have little to no chance to see you (even with the -20 penalty for hiding after sniping). And with a wand (only 750 gps!) you can do it all day. And, that wand is useable by any 1st level ranger. That's why 1 level of ranger for archers are all the rage on the character optimization boards. Is it too much for a 1st level ranger spell? I dunno...maybe. It's certainly really powerful, but I'm a fan of ranger-only and paladin-only spells being more powerful than expected for their level. But it's the wands of hunter's mercy and the ease with which you can pick up a level of ranger that give me pause.
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-19-03, 03:18 PM	If you have a character built like that, with that equipment....I hate to break it to you, but Hunter's Mercy is the least of your worries in that campaign. A few things to think about: - it takes a standard action to use the wand - Hunter's Mercy applies only to the next attack (not full attack...single attack) - you still have to confirm that critical threat....without the benefit of the spell I don't think it's so incredibly overpowering, personally. Lest someone suggest that Hunter's Mercy apply to all arrows shot using Manyshot (since they only use one attack roll)....NO. NO. NO. You'd only apply Sneak Attack damage to one of those arrows. The mechanic's the same: you'd only apply Hunter's Mercy to the first arrow, so only it would threaten a critical. The second arrow would use the Manyshot attack roll as usual.
tarkin 11-19-03, 03:34 PM	Difference between Hunter's Mercy and True Strike: 1) True Strike is a Sorc/Wiz spell, while HM is a Ranger spell. So what? 2) True Strike works with any weapon, while HM only works on a bow. IMPORTANT No Power Attack. No Combat Expertise. Etc. etc. etc. HM is less powerfull here than a TS. 3) TS does not help if your DM sends you up against a creature that is ridiculously over powered creature that he has no business sending you up against. HM will help. HM is more powerfull, but only if your DM is a moron. 4) TS should guarante a hit, and if your d20 roll is within your threat range, guarante a crit. HM guarantees a hit and if your next d20 would be a hit, then you get a crit. This is a slight benefit to those people that have not maxed out their threat range. As either spell is more helpfull for a hard to hit target, TS's limitation of rolling the d20 in your threat range SHOULD be more likely to be helpfull. After all using HM when you need a 12 or better to hit is stupid. Smart people save the TS or HM for when they have a hard time hitting, so the chance of a crit should be about the same for TS or HM. In fact, TS is easier to abuse, simply by getting a super large crit range, practically guaranteeing a crit. HM only gives a better chance of a crit if you did not need the HM to hit the target in the first place, making it a more balanced spell. Conclusion: Hunters Mercy is a more balanced spell, less likely to be abused than True Strike. Unless your DM is sending you upa against creatures whose AC is 10 points above what you can expect to hit, it causes less problems than TS does.
Llathos 11-19-03, 04:18 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong (which I may be), but doesn't one of the above PrCs give you Power Attack on your bow? It's definitily an ability granted by one of them... Deepwood Peerless Archer Order of Bow Initiate etc...
IceFractal 11-19-03, 07:37 PM	Is it too powerful? Let's observe: Knowing that his archnemesis, Bob the Blue, is going to be traveling along a certain road on a certain day, Robert the Red get some supplies ready: Heavy Crossbow: 50 gp Potion of Hunter's Mercy: 50 gp Peasant to shoot crossbow: pretty much nil Max. Range: 1200 feet Damage: 1d10 Just have the peasants (-4 penalty, but it doesn't matter), stand about 1000' away from the road and be ready to shoot. All the shots will hit except for the 1 in 20 peasants who fumble, but the 1 in 20 peasants who critical will make up for those. So thats basically 1d10 damage per 100 gp, which doesn't seem like that great a deal, but consider an assassin's guild attempting to murder the king. Suddenly spending 10,000gp to do 100d10 damage, with pretty much no way to avoid it, doesn't seem like such a bad idea. The fact is that potions of hunter's mercy are cheaper than hiring a qualified warrior, and those guaranteed hits really build up when you have 1,000 peasants.
Ertai Planeswalker 11-19-03, 08:04 PM	NM
Ertai Planeswalker 11-19-03, 08:05 PM	Originally posted by IceFractal Is it too powerful? Let's observe: Knowing that his archnemesis, Bob the Blue, is going to be traveling along a certain road on a certain day, Robert the Red get some supplies ready: Heavy Crossbow: 50 gp Potion of Hunter's Mercy: 50 gp Peasant to shoot crossbow: pretty much nil Max. Range: 1200 feet Damage: 1d10 Just have the peasants (-4 penalty, but it doesn't matter), stand about 1000' away from the road and be ready to shoot. All the shots will hit except for the 1 in 20 peasants who fumble, but the 1 in 20 peasants who critical will make up for those. So thats basically 1d10 damage per 100 gp, which doesn't seem like that great a deal, but consider an assassin's guild attempting to murder the king. Suddenly spending 10,000gp to do 100d10 damage, with pretty much no way to avoid it, doesn't seem like such a bad idea. The fact is that potions of hunter's mercy are cheaper than hiring a qualified warrior, and those guaranteed hits really build up when you have 1,000 peasants. And that ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a strawman. Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade - you still have to confirm that critical threat....without the benefit of the spell I do not have the spell in front of me, so i could be wrong, but i think you are wrong here. A crit confirmation is always made with the same bonuses that applied to the attack roll it originated from. It does so with True Strike, why would this be any different?
Sancus 11-19-03, 08:51 PM	Wand of Hunter’s Mercy Really. Wow. And where did you get this Wand? Your Ranger build doesn't appear to have the Create Wand feat... What, you just assume that there are a whole bunch of Rangers somewhere manufacturing cheap wands for you to buy? But why? Your own ranger didn't take the feat.... why would they? Wands and Potions of Hunter's Mercy are all very well but they have to _come_ from _somewhere_, you can't just pull them out of thin air. +9 attack to confirm crit. (+5 dex, +1 WF, +1 PBS, +2 Bracers of Archery, -2 Manyshot) I hope you realize you only crit on one arrow of the Manyshot, not all of them, which it doesn't look like you realize by the damage lists in your post. I do not have the spell in front of me, so i could be wrong, but i think you are wrong here. A crit confirmation is always made with the same bonuses that applied to the attack roll it originated from. It does so with True Strike, why would this be any different? This is correct, however, the spell doesn't provide any benefits to your threat roll, only to your roll to hit. So you roll the threat with no bonuses.
Bloodtide_the_Red 11-19-03, 09:58 PM	....an example from the munchkin board of how this spell ability can be exploited to insane gains: Well, I'd point out that you can do one of theas 'insane bulids' with just about anything(ok, not anything..but you get the point). This bulid is an example of a ranger that can just about only shoot his bow, but he has put everything into it. Buliding a good character is par of the whole D&D thing right? If I take spell focus in evocation, it's a good idea to take an evocation spell or two(not say to myself it would be too 'unblanced' and take only divination spells). The spell itself is not clear on the 'hit' part. It says '''Your next attack with the bow hits'' then in the next line says '''If you don't hit in the round following the casting then the spell effect is wasted.''' It's not in any thing i've seen officaly, but it does look like the word ''If'' is missing before ''your next attack....though you'd need to change the 'and' to 'it'. BT
Kyaran 11-19-03, 10:06 PM	Originally posted by Bloodtide_the_Red The spell itself is not clear on the 'hit' part. It says '''Your next attack with the bow hits'' then in the next line says '''If you don't hit in the round following the casting then the spell effect is wasted.''' It's not in any thing i've seen officaly, but it does look like the word ''If'' is missing before ''your next attack....though you'd need to change the 'and' to 'it'. No, it's quite clear. It doesn't require an initial attack roll. The sentence in question is: "Your next attack with the bow (if it is made before the end of the next round) hits and automatically threatens a critical hit." Taking out the parenthetical part to reduce confusion: "Your next attack with the bow hits and automatically threatens a critical hit." If you don't make an attack, you obviously don't hit anything, and the spell expires.
ksbsnowowl 11-20-03, 12:35 AM	Originally posted by Sancus Really. Wow. And where did you get this Wand? Your Ranger build doesn't appear to have the Create Wand feat... What, you just assume that there are a whole bunch of Rangers somewhere manufacturing cheap wands for you to buy? But why? Your own ranger didn't take the feat.... why would they? Wands and Potions of Hunter's Mercy are all very well but they have to _come_ from _somewhere_, you can't just pull them out of thin air.I was quoted by Llathos, I'm the one who originally posted that exact example in another thread. I will simply give you the same answer I gave last time someone brought this up. You really have two options. You could take the leadership feat and get a ranger cohort. I'm sure that you could convince him to see the benefit to himself and the rest of the party to get the craft wand feat. He would be able to aid himself and you with wands to increase your archery abilities, and he could aid the entire party by making wands of cure spells and various other helpful spells. Granted, you would be 12th or higher level before he could craft wands, but it would still work. Alternatively, you could get a multiclasses ranger 4/cleric or druid 5 and he could craft them sooner. Or, you could instead start the build ranger 4/ fighter 1. Sure, you lose weap. spec, but in a 3.5 game that is the only feat you would be short. Now you can cast the spell yourself. Really, it shouldn't be that big of a problem unless your DM is prone to being absolutely unreasonable and obtuse. I hope you realize you only crit on one arrow of the Manyshot, not all of them, which it doesn't look like you realize by the damage lists in your post. The second arrow from manyshot was not multiplied on the critical. You have to remember that the DWS levels give the character a x4 crit multiplier with bows. I'll copy/paste the damage line and list out the sources. Dmg: 4d8(first arrow) + 1d6(sneak attack) + 1d6(shocking) + 3d10(burst) + 8(magical bonus) + 40(Power Shot) + 4(PBS) + 8(weap. spec.) + 4(bracers of archery) + 1d8 + 1d6 + 2 + 10 + 1 + 2 + 1 Everything after that (the 1d8 + 1d6.....) is composed of the exact same (but not multiplied) sources for the second arrow, save sneak attack, which doesn't apply.
Hypersmurf 11-20-03, 01:01 AM	Really. Wow. And where did you get this Wand? Your Ranger build doesn't appear to have the Create Wand feat... Hmm? You find a wizard with the feat, and pay him to make the wand, while you prepare the spell each day and cooperate in the creation. The prerequisites can be supplied by the creator, or by another caster cooperating, or even from a wand or scroll... -Hyp.
ksbsnowowl 11-20-03, 01:18 AM	Indeed they can. I had forgotten about this rule, thank you Hyp. For those interested it is mentioned on page 241 of the 3.0 DMG. Also note, a wand of Hunter's Mercy cost 1500 GP, not 750. The minimum level at which it can be cast is 2.
kreynolds 11-20-03, 08:03 AM	Originally posted by IceFractal The fact is that potions of hunter's mercy are... ...impossible to make. It's a personal spell.
Llathos 11-20-03, 10:28 AM	I'm a bit fuzzy on the power Shot bit... I'm assuming that's the power attack with the bow maneuver, but I was pretty sure power attack only worked up to your BAB, regardless of your other bonuses from magic, abilities, etc...
ksbsnowowl 11-20-03, 10:39 AM	Indeed, Power shot is the ranged Power Attack ability. And yes, it does work only up to your BAB, but just like power attack, the full value would get multiplied on any crit. The character is 10th level with a BAB of 10. He also has a x4 crit multiplier with a bow. Power shot for 10 * 4 damage = 40.
tarkin 11-20-03, 11:47 AM	And Power Shot is a prestige class ability, making it MUCH rarer than Power Attack, and such abilities are generally acknoweldged to be more powerfull than feats. Here is a simple comparison. At 6th level, a 60% chance to hit is reasonable for the first shot, 35% chance at 2nd iterative shot, with rapid shot that becomes 50%, 50%, 25%. 1) You are in a fight. no surprise or anything stupid like that where you can make up stupid house rules about activating magic items not ending surprise. 2) You use HM. first round you cast the spell HM, then next round take one shot that will hit with a 50% chance of triple damage, plus one shot with a 50% to hit plus one shot with 25% to hit. Damage is 1+ (.5*2) + .5 + .25 = 2.75 3) Or you can forget about HM, and fire 1 at 50% + 1 at 50% + 1 at 25% for two rounds. .5+.5+.25 + .5 + .5 + .25 = 2.5 Your net gain for casting the spell is 1/4 of a hit. Big deal. AND if you cast it on a creature that is immune to crits, you do worse than you would have normally.