3.5 Where does it say I can use Alter Self + Enlarge/Reduce person? [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Where does it say I can use Alter Self + Enlarge/Reduce person? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Harmor
11-10-04, 08:20 PM Where does it say I can use Alter Self + Enlarge/Reduce person to change my size two size categories?

Small -> Medium w/Alter Self -> Large w/Enlarge Person
Small -> Tiny w/Alter Self -> Diminutive w/Reduce Person
PhaedrusXY
11-10-04, 09:41 PM In the spell descriptions. Where does it say you can't? That's the question. (Nowhere)
Nom
11-10-04, 11:28 PM Well, enlarge person and righteous might both state that "multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack", including a specific example of the spell not stacking with itself.

The question is whether polymorph or alter self count as "magical effects that increase size". It is clear that they are "magical effects", and if you alter size with them they do rather seem to fall into the category of a "magical effect that increased size", even if they have other effects also.

However, some people argue that the size increase is not due to a magical effect, but an incidental effect of an unrelated magical effect. Personally, I find this line of argument rather weak, but some rule by it.
PhaedrusXY
11-10-04, 11:53 PM Yeah, I'm familiar with the argument. Polymorph changes you into a normal sized example of whatever creature you polymorph into, not a magically enlarged one. Enlarge Person and Righteous Might both make you into a bigger version of whatever you were to start with. But this comes up enough that I agree that it needs to be clarified in a FAQ or something.
Seeker95
11-11-04, 03:21 PM I agree with Phaedrus that folks have become divided on this.
I agree with Nom that there is no real cause for confusion.
Alter self changes *you*
Enlarge changes *your size*

If this combination results in a size increase of two size categories, hooray for you.
cwslyclgh
11-11-04, 03:34 PM I agree with Seeker.
Nom
11-11-04, 08:35 PM I agree with Phaedrus that folks have become divided on this.
I agree with Nom that there is no real cause for confusion.Eh?!? I (first) said that there are two different points of view. I also said that I consider "alter self is a magical effect that increases your size" the more consistent ruling (both letter and spirit), but included the other for completeness (something which Phaedrus initially did not). The only point at which I can see that I agree with you is that there are two opinions, a point which you associated to Phaedrus.

Or have I missed something? :confused:
Seeker95
11-12-04, 10:06 AM Or have I missed something? :confused:Phaedrus' second post noted the two opinions more explicitly than Nom.
My own mistake was in attributing to clarity of vision to Nom.
Nom is confused. It looks like he does think alter self is a size change. :P
Nom
11-12-04, 07:49 PM :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 11-10-04, 08:20 PM	Where does it say I can use Alter Self + Enlarge/Reduce person to change my size two size categories? Small -> Medium w/Alter Self -> Large w/Enlarge Person Small -> Tiny w/Alter Self -> Diminutive w/Reduce Person
PhaedrusXY 11-10-04, 09:41 PM	In the spell descriptions. Where does it say you can't? That's the question. (Nowhere)
Nom 11-10-04, 11:28 PM	Well, enlarge person and righteous might both state that "multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack", including a specific example of the spell not stacking with itself. The question is whether polymorph or alter self count as "magical effects that increase size". It is clear that they are "magical effects", and if you alter size with them they do rather seem to fall into the category of a "magical effect that increased size", even if they have other effects also. However, some people argue that the size increase is not due to a magical effect, but an incidental effect of an unrelated magical effect. Personally, I find this line of argument rather weak, but some rule by it.
PhaedrusXY 11-10-04, 11:53 PM	Yeah, I'm familiar with the argument. Polymorph changes you into a normal sized example of whatever creature you polymorph into, not a magically enlarged one. Enlarge Person and Righteous Might both make you into a bigger version of whatever you were to start with. But this comes up enough that I agree that it needs to be clarified in a FAQ or something.
Seeker95 11-11-04, 03:21 PM	I agree with Phaedrus that folks have become divided on this. I agree with Nom that there is no real cause for confusion. Alter self changes you Enlarge changes your size If this combination results in a size increase of two size categories, hooray for you.
cwslyclgh 11-11-04, 03:34 PM	I agree with Seeker.
Nom 11-11-04, 08:35 PM	I agree with Phaedrus that folks have become divided on this. I agree with Nom that there is no real cause for confusion.Eh?!? I (first) said that there are two different points of view. I also said that I consider "alter self is a magical effect that increases your size" the more consistent ruling (both letter and spirit), but included the other for completeness (something which Phaedrus initially did not). The only point at which I can see that I agree with you is that there are two opinions, a point which you associated to Phaedrus. Or have I missed something? :confused:
Seeker95 11-12-04, 10:06 AM	Or have I missed something? :confused:Phaedrus' second post noted the two opinions more explicitly than Nom. My own mistake was in attributing to clarity of vision to Nom. Nom is confused. It looks like he does think alter self is a size change. :P
Nom 11-12-04, 07:49 PM	:)