36d6 [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

36d6 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wdarkk
03-17-04, 03:19 AM I just bought a box of d6's for my wizard, now that I have many mass-damage spells.

My goal is to cast a spell someday that uses all 36 of the d6s. I'm currently 6th level, which is why I said someday.

What's the earliest I could find a way to do this, without using something insane like dropping stone dragons on the enemy (using polymorph/shapechange et al)?

One observation I've already had is that Empower Spell doesn't help - it multiplies after you roll.
LordArkan
03-17-04, 03:35 AM Disintigrate by an 18th level caster will do it.
wdarkk
03-17-04, 03:55 AM Dang. Can't believe I forgot that one.
Any others? Anything I could do before 18th level?
fruits and vegetables
03-17-04, 04:05 AM critical hit with a disintegrate spell at 11th level. that would be 44d6......you may need more dice.
Shima
03-17-04, 04:38 AM There is a cap on spell, and its 25d6 at lvl 9.
Sorry to say you'll get no use out of the extras.
I have the same box, and I just split em in 4 with the rogue the cleric and the sorcerer.
fruits and vegetables
03-17-04, 04:47 AM i know that.;)

A crit from a touch attack spell does double damage though. I do not know any official rulings on this but you would be limiting a lot of spells by saying there damage dice cap prevents critical damage from applying.

To describe it,
You cast disintegrate...
You hit....
You hit with a 20....
You hit them in the face.

If there is any official rulings on this i will just disagree with it, official or not. It just seems silly not to allow it.

IMO.
fruits and vegetables
03-17-04, 04:54 AM oh,

Just thought of another reason why i disagree.

Scorching Ray.

It is second level. You make ranged touch attacks. Each hit does a static 4d6 damage. You can never crit with this spell if you say the damage cap prevents critical damage.
fruits and vegetables
03-17-04, 05:05 AM You were also bringing up the rule of a spell's damage cap by level. As in a 3rd level spell should not do any more than 10d6 damage. You can see that disintegrate is an exception to this.

Missed that. Just to clarify something, disintegrate can do 40d6 damage at level 20. That would be 80d6 with a crit.:)
wdarkk
03-17-04, 05:33 AM Crits aren't useful to me anyway, because they don't add dice at all. They merely multiply final damage.

I'll keep this in mind if I ever make it it 18th level.
Shima
03-17-04, 05:44 AM Woah, I just the 3.5 version of the spell for the first time, and your right it does make 40d6!

This as got to be the most destructive spell.
pascalnz
03-17-04, 05:49 AM well It used to be more powerfull in 3.0 y'know :)
the_heart
03-17-04, 06:06 AM Originally posted by wdarkk
Crits aren't useful to me anyway, because they don't add dice at all. They merely multiply final damage.

I'll keep this in mind if I ever make it it 18th level. hmmm! i'm fairly confident that you are mistaken and F&V is correct. i believe a crit increases the number of dice rolled. certainly if you crit with a longsword you roll 2d8. you don't roll 1d8 and times by two.

similarly i'd always read:
from SRD
EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

as you multiply the dice by half not the total rolled.

i.e for a 8th level fireball the variable effect is the 8 in 8d6, so adding half that would be 12d6 (half of a d6 being a d3 for odd level FB's)

have to say, i'm less confident in this interpretation than i am the crits :)
DM Zoc
03-17-04, 06:30 AM i believe a crit increases the number of dice rolled. certainly if you crit with a longsword you roll 2d8. you don't roll 1d8 and times by two

Odd; I had never in my life considered doing it that way. After all, an additionaly 1d8 does not double the damage of 1d8, though multiplying the end result by two would be a double.
wdarkk
03-17-04, 06:37 AM Dear me, F&V is in fact correct. PHB 3.5 p140.
the_heart
03-17-04, 06:48 AM Originally posted by DM Zoc
Odd; I had never in my life considered doing it that way. After all, an additionaly 1d8 does not double the damage of 1d8, though multiplying the end result by two would be a double. you are mathematically correct, and it may be that i'm taking this quote too literally.
from SRD
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times
but i've always read it as x2 as being 2d8 + double the modifiers. this is also (arguably) supported in text where multiple damage is written in that format (charges, rends etc.). i say arguably, because i guess you could counter by saying it's listed that way for convenience.

although i think it has also been clarified in the FAQ or sage advice (although i could be mistaken on that).

that said, either way works, if used consistently :)
nyphoenix79
03-17-04, 11:53 AM Technically (and mathmatically) is doesnt really matter, it comes down to your play style.

By the rules ( and my prefered method) is to roll again, not simply multiply x2(or x3 etc).

Specially since it gets a more balanced amount...after all who wants to do a simple x2 when you roll a 1 on the die. Sure its great if you get a 6 on a d6 for example, but i like the reroll method.

Besides you are getting your real damage from a crit from other stuff (str, magic enhancements, etc)
MoonHawk
03-17-04, 12:00 PM But it does matter, technically and mathematically. The probability of getting a 2 on 2d6 is 1/36, where as the probability of getting a 2 on 1d6x2 is 1/6. Same for 12. The probability of getting a 6 on 2d6 is 5/36, compared to 1/6 on 1d6x2. The probability of getting a 7 on 2d6 is 1/6, but the probability of getting a 7 on 1d6x2 is 0! So it does matter, just not very much. :angel:
nyphoenix79
03-17-04, 12:16 PM I meant average wise, the average amount of several criticals using either method will be very close;

Because its not just the dice roll, its everything added on to it that is the same regardless of method. :P
Finwe
03-17-04, 12:42 PM Originally posted by MoonHawk
But it does matter, technically and mathematically. The probability of getting a 2 on 2d6 is 1/36, where as the probability of getting a 2 on 1d6x2 is 1/6. Same for 12. The probability of getting a 6 on 2d6 is 5/36, compared to 1/6 on 1d6x2. The probability of getting a 7 on 2d6 is 1/6, but the probability of getting a 7 on 1d6x2 is 0! So it does matter, just not very much. :angel:

Mathematicaly, they average out to the same, but 2d6 is more likely to hit the average. It just depends on weather you want to be doing a medium amount of damage most of the time with lower chances of the extremes, or an equal chance of extremes and the middle.
tarkin
03-17-04, 01:04 PM Any spell that saves for nothing can do unlimited d6.

But for a save for 1/2, try this:

Polar Ray, 25d6 max at 8th level
Cast using a Rod of Admixture Acid (doubles the dice)
At 16th levle that is is 32 dice. at 18th it is 36 dice.
Boondoggle
03-18-04, 04:21 AM While the averages may be eqaul, no one rolls enough dice enough times for the two to be considered equal. Were you to roll 1d6 100 times, the chances of you getting completely average rolls (3.5 over those 100) are extremely small. Randomness is a very large factor in D&D and averages are by no means the best way to evaluate things like this.

When comparing 1d6x2 to 2d6, the differences in results are going to be relatively small compared to the bonus damage being done (str, magic, feats, etc.). However, on a higher critical multiplier, say x4, the variance in results is much, much greater and much more random.

The DMG states that randomness disadvantages the players and while that discussion would be even further OT (and more thinking that I'm willing at this time of night), I agree. It is for these reasons that I prefer to roll multiple times rather than multiply.
da chicken
03-18-04, 04:35 AM We generally roll more dice, even for things like Empower Spell. Rolling more dice is just more fun, and we just don't care that much about probability distributions.
bitnine
03-18-04, 04:51 AM Heh, I once was in a game with someone who researched a spell that dealt a large number of 'd3's of damage just so that he could intimidate other players with the mammoth amount of d6s he was rolling. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wdarkk 03-17-04, 03:19 AM	I just bought a box of d6's for my wizard, now that I have many mass-damage spells. My goal is to cast a spell someday that uses all 36 of the d6s. I'm currently 6th level, which is why I said someday. What's the earliest I could find a way to do this, without using something insane like dropping stone dragons on the enemy (using polymorph/shapechange et al)? One observation I've already had is that Empower Spell doesn't help - it multiplies after you roll.
LordArkan 03-17-04, 03:35 AM	Disintigrate by an 18th level caster will do it.
wdarkk 03-17-04, 03:55 AM	Dang. Can't believe I forgot that one. Any others? Anything I could do before 18th level?
fruits and vegetables 03-17-04, 04:05 AM	critical hit with a disintegrate spell at 11th level. that would be 44d6......you may need more dice.
Shima 03-17-04, 04:38 AM	There is a cap on spell, and its 25d6 at lvl 9. Sorry to say you'll get no use out of the extras. I have the same box, and I just split em in 4 with the rogue the cleric and the sorcerer.
fruits and vegetables 03-17-04, 04:47 AM	i know that.;) A crit from a touch attack spell does double damage though. I do not know any official rulings on this but you would be limiting a lot of spells by saying there damage dice cap prevents critical damage from applying. To describe it, You cast disintegrate... You hit.... You hit with a 20.... You hit them in the face. If there is any official rulings on this i will just disagree with it, official or not. It just seems silly not to allow it. IMO.
fruits and vegetables 03-17-04, 04:54 AM	oh, Just thought of another reason why i disagree. Scorching Ray. It is second level. You make ranged touch attacks. Each hit does a static 4d6 damage. You can never crit with this spell if you say the damage cap prevents critical damage.
fruits and vegetables 03-17-04, 05:05 AM	You were also bringing up the rule of a spell's damage cap by level. As in a 3rd level spell should not do any more than 10d6 damage. You can see that disintegrate is an exception to this. Missed that. Just to clarify something, disintegrate can do 40d6 damage at level 20. That would be 80d6 with a crit.:)
wdarkk 03-17-04, 05:33 AM	Crits aren't useful to me anyway, because they don't add dice at all. They merely multiply final damage. I'll keep this in mind if I ever make it it 18th level.
Shima 03-17-04, 05:44 AM	Woah, I just the 3.5 version of the spell for the first time, and your right it does make 40d6! This as got to be the most destructive spell.
pascalnz 03-17-04, 05:49 AM	well It used to be more powerfull in 3.0 y'know :)
the_heart 03-17-04, 06:06 AM	Originally posted by wdarkk Crits aren't useful to me anyway, because they don't add dice at all. They merely multiply final damage. I'll keep this in mind if I ever make it it 18th level. hmmm! i'm fairly confident that you are mistaken and F&V is correct. i believe a crit increases the number of dice rolled. certainly if you crit with a longsword you roll 2d8. you don't roll 1d8 and times by two. similarly i'd always read: from SRD EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC] Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level. as you multiply the dice by half not the total rolled. i.e for a 8th level fireball the variable effect is the 8 in 8d6, so adding half that would be 12d6 (half of a d6 being a d3 for odd level FB's) have to say, i'm less confident in this interpretation than i am the crits :)
DM Zoc 03-17-04, 06:30 AM	i believe a crit increases the number of dice rolled. certainly if you crit with a longsword you roll 2d8. you don't roll 1d8 and times by two Odd; I had never in my life considered doing it that way. After all, an additionaly 1d8 does not double the damage of 1d8, though multiplying the end result by two would be a double.
wdarkk 03-17-04, 06:37 AM	Dear me, F&V is in fact correct. PHB 3.5 p140.
the_heart 03-17-04, 06:48 AM	Originally posted by DM Zoc Odd; I had never in my life considered doing it that way. After all, an additionaly 1d8 does not double the damage of 1d8, though multiplying the end result by two would be a double. you are mathematically correct, and it may be that i'm taking this quote too literally. from SRD Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times but i've always read it as x2 as being 2d8 + double the modifiers. this is also (arguably) supported in text where multiple damage is written in that format (charges, rends etc.). i say arguably, because i guess you could counter by saying it's listed that way for convenience. although i think it has also been clarified in the FAQ or sage advice (although i could be mistaken on that). that said, either way works, if used consistently :)
nyphoenix79 03-17-04, 11:53 AM	Technically (and mathmatically) is doesnt really matter, it comes down to your play style. By the rules ( and my prefered method) is to roll again, not simply multiply x2(or x3 etc). Specially since it gets a more balanced amount...after all who wants to do a simple x2 when you roll a 1 on the die. Sure its great if you get a 6 on a d6 for example, but i like the reroll method. Besides you are getting your real damage from a crit from other stuff (str, magic enhancements, etc)
MoonHawk 03-17-04, 12:00 PM	But it does matter, technically and mathematically. The probability of getting a 2 on 2d6 is 1/36, where as the probability of getting a 2 on 1d6x2 is 1/6. Same for 12. The probability of getting a 6 on 2d6 is 5/36, compared to 1/6 on 1d6x2. The probability of getting a 7 on 2d6 is 1/6, but the probability of getting a 7 on 1d6x2 is 0! So it does matter, just not very much. :angel:
nyphoenix79 03-17-04, 12:16 PM	I meant average wise, the average amount of several criticals using either method will be very close; Because its not just the dice roll, its everything added on to it that is the same regardless of method. :P
Finwe 03-17-04, 12:42 PM	Originally posted by MoonHawk But it does matter, technically and mathematically. The probability of getting a 2 on 2d6 is 1/36, where as the probability of getting a 2 on 1d6x2 is 1/6. Same for 12. The probability of getting a 6 on 2d6 is 5/36, compared to 1/6 on 1d6x2. The probability of getting a 7 on 2d6 is 1/6, but the probability of getting a 7 on 1d6x2 is 0! So it does matter, just not very much. :angel: Mathematicaly, they average out to the same, but 2d6 is more likely to hit the average. It just depends on weather you want to be doing a medium amount of damage most of the time with lower chances of the extremes, or an equal chance of extremes and the middle.
tarkin 03-17-04, 01:04 PM	Any spell that saves for nothing can do unlimited d6. But for a save for 1/2, try this: Polar Ray, 25d6 max at 8th level Cast using a Rod of Admixture Acid (doubles the dice) At 16th levle that is is 32 dice. at 18th it is 36 dice.
Boondoggle 03-18-04, 04:21 AM	While the averages may be eqaul, no one rolls enough dice enough times for the two to be considered equal. Were you to roll 1d6 100 times, the chances of you getting completely average rolls (3.5 over those 100) are extremely small. Randomness is a very large factor in D&D and averages are by no means the best way to evaluate things like this. When comparing 1d6x2 to 2d6, the differences in results are going to be relatively small compared to the bonus damage being done (str, magic, feats, etc.). However, on a higher critical multiplier, say x4, the variance in results is much, much greater and much more random. The DMG states that randomness disadvantages the players and while that discussion would be even further OT (and more thinking that I'm willing at this time of night), I agree. It is for these reasons that I prefer to roll multiple times rather than multiply.
da chicken 03-18-04, 04:35 AM	We generally roll more dice, even for things like Empower Spell. Rolling more dice is just more fun, and we just don't care that much about probability distributions.
bitnine 03-18-04, 04:51 AM	Heh, I once was in a game with someone who researched a spell that dealt a large number of 'd3's of damage just so that he could intimidate other players with the mammoth amount of d6s he was rolling. ;)