Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psamatos 01-27-05, 06:42 PM	Hi, first of all sorry about my english. Now what really matters. My party and i have always this discussion and i hope you could help me. The spell Disintegrate (PHB 3.5) cause 2d6/lvl (or caster lvl, doesnt matter) so for example, a 12 lvl wizard who cast disintegrate cause 24d6 of damage (only 1d6 less that meteor swarm in 9 lvl). Now the thing, if i use the Empowerspell metamagic feat (that as i understand it aplies cuz it affects spell that deals some amount of d6 damage) a 12 lvl wizard could make a 36d6 disintegrate (24d6 * 150%) and it would be only an eight lvl spell. Now, if we really want to make these thing worse, the halruan elder prestige class (among others) could reduce the lvl adjustment from the metamagic feat (so the empowerspell feat will only increase 1 lvl the spell) and if u had the spell thematics feat (that improved ur caster lvl for one spell per lvl, lets say disintegrate for 6th lvl) and that is prerequisite for the prestige class a 12 lvl wizard could cast a 39d6 disintegrate as a 7th lvl spell (13*2d6 * 150%) and he is not using his circle magic, that would be too much. :rolleyes: So, i hope you ppl could help me. For me all these things make sense, but maybe im "thinking out of the recipient" (old family joke) so any comment would be nice. By the way, i know that disintegrate has to be a range tuch spell, but come on a quicken true strike will do the trick. The only thing im not sure is that the disintegrate spell has or not saving throw. The description says: "Saving Throw: None (object)" but the text says something like (sorry, i dont have the PHB with me) that "The creature or object hit by the ray can attempt to make a fortitude saving trhow". Thas all, thanks for the future comments ;) Psamatos Psamatides _________________________________ The Paladin to the party: - Paladin: I wont need any help. This is a one to one Duel and if he beats me my honor wouldnt let me live anyway. i wont scream Cucu if i need help so stay away!!! ... a few moments later... - Paladin: Cucu, cucu, cucu, cucu, cucu!!!!!!!!
ck2001wendt 01-27-05, 06:52 PM	Well... A 17th level Caster (Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10) can do a maximum 120d6 with a Disintegrate. Instant MM (Twin) + Imp. MM + Imp. Crit (Ray). More likely, you can only do 60d6 (no crit). And it's still a 6th level spell. A 21st level caster could do 120d6*1.5 (Instant Twin) + (Empower) + Imp. Crit (Ray)+Improved Spellcasting (Epic). Your example looks perfectly valid. An incantatrix can also accomplish this feat, Instantly Empowering a Disintegrate at 15th level (for 30d6*1.5) or instantly Twinning it at 17th. In both cases, the spell only takes a 6th level spell slot. Now, realistically it's not going to be this bad, because Disintegrate runs off Fort saves, and most CR 15 creatures will beat your Fort save.
tarkin 01-27-05, 06:59 PM	A quicken True Strike will do the Trick? Wrong in a lot of ways. First of all a Quickened True Strike is a 5th level spell. That is a SERIOUS spell to just throw away to only help your 7th level. Say your opponent does two Empowered Fireball instead of a quickened First Strike and a Disintegrate . Say two Empowered Fireball. Average damage = 30d6. No to hit needed, area attack spell, doing almost the same damage. If both saves are made, damage is 15d6. Now compare with your combo: a 7th level spell with a 5th level spell. Why does Ddisint get away with 2d6? Because it is save for partial not save for 1/2 So your quickened True Strike plus Empowered Disintegrate lets you probably hit the person (assuming they have no non-ac defenses such as Mirror Image) and probably affect the person (assuming they don't have spell turning, SR or similar stuff up) But it is 36d6 save for 7d6 All in all, I think I would rather memorize two Empowered Fireball spells than your Quicken True Strike + Disintegrate combo. Yours might go for a quick kill on one person, but only if you are lucky. Most likely, you are going to just waste two major spells getting only 7d6.
BW0222 01-27-05, 07:27 PM	Perfectly valid. However, a) You require a ranged touch attack. You can miss. Bluff, displacement, etc. makes it mighty risky. b) You get a Fort save to take only 5d6 damage. Assuming a 20 int, the wizard would put up a 10+7+5 = DC 22. Most 12th-level creatures can make this save about half the time. Failed save is 24d6 damage x1.5 = 126 points of damage (average). Successful save is 5d6 x 1.5 = 26.5 points of damage (average). c) It has spell resistance. d) It affects a single creature. e) You need to empower it to get to this level. If you compare this against lots of other spells. Harm (6th) - 120 hp damage (failed save) or 60 hp damage (successful save). Baneful polymorph (5th) - you are a chipmunk (failed save). Empowered Fireball (3rd+2) - 10d6 x 1.5 = 50hp of damage (failed save), 25hp (successful) to multiple creatures. Empowered Summon Nature's Ally VII (7th+2) - summon 3-7 large fire elementals. On a full attack that is 6-14 attacks per round doing 4d6+2 per attack. 24d6+12 to 56d6+28 points of damage per round for twelve rounds. You also have 3-7 60hp creatures around the poor target. No save, no SR. Wall of Thorns - you could easily take 100hp of damage before getting out of the area. No save, no SR, affect multiple targets. There are lots of spells which are of equal or greater power.
ck2001wendt 01-27-05, 07:27 PM	The Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 in the previous encounter can Quicken a True Strike out of a Wand (as per Inc rules in PGtF) for 5 Wand charges. 17th level caster: -(Quckened) True Striken from Wand -Instant Twinned Disintegrate w. Improved MM =68d6 (possibly 136d6), save for 10d6 (possibly 20d6); Evasion No; Mettle Yes Total spell slots used: 1 6th. Or -Empowered Instant (Twinned) Fireball; let's call empowering 1.5xdice rather than 1.5 result, to make my life easier. -Empowered Instant (Quickened) Fireball =45d6, save for 1/2; Evasion Yes Total spell slots used: 2 4th
Zherog 01-27-05, 09:11 PM	so for example, a 12 lvl wizard who cast disintegrate cause 24d6 of damage (only 1d6 less that meteor swarm in 9 lvl). Correct. Now the thing, if i use the Empowerspell metamagic feat (that as i understand it aplies cuz it affects spell that deals some amount of d6 damage) a 12 lvl wizard could make a 36d6 disintegrate (24d6 * 150%) and it would be only an eight lvl spell. Also correct, though your 12th level wizard can't cast it. Now, if we really want to make these thing worse, the halruan elder prestige class (among others) could reduce the lvl adjustment from the metamagic feat (so the empowerspell feat will only increase 1 lvl the spell) and if u had the spell thematics feat (that improved ur caster lvl for one spell per lvl, lets say disintegrate for 6th lvl) and that is prerequisite for the prestige class a 12 lvl wizard could cast a 39d6 disintegrate as a 7th lvl spell (13*2d6 * 150%) and he is not using his circle magic, that would be too much. :rolleyes: Again correct, though again your 12th level wizard can't cast this. Though, granted, once he hit 13th level he'd be set. So, i hope you ppl could help me. For me all these things make sense, but maybe im "thinking out of the recipient" (old family joke) so any comment would be nice. The only thing im not sure is that the disintegrate spell has or not saving throw. The description says: "Saving Throw: None (object)" but the text says something like (sorry, i dont have the PHB with me) that "The creature or object hit by the ray can attempt to make a fortitude saving trhow". There is indeed a save.
angryman 01-27-05, 10:28 PM	Uhh...in 3.0 Edition and 2nd ed, it just DISINTEGRATED whatever failed their save against it, damage be damned. I'd take 39D6 or 120d6 any day. My wizard got hit with a "disintegrate 3.5" and took 99 of his 101 HPs. I like that it does damage, not just another insta-kill spell! My wizard will attest to that, too!
calebjyoung 01-27-05, 11:08 PM	I thought empower increased the results - not the # of dice rolled. PG 93 PHB : All varible numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by 1/2. An empowered spell deals 1/2 again as much dammage as nomral, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targes, and so fourth, as appropriate. For example, an empowered magic missle deals 1&1/2 times its normal dammage (roll 1d4 and multiply the result by 1&1/2 for each missle). For clarity - look at the example of maximize spell on page 97 & 98 and I quote from the top of page 98 : "An empowered, maximized fireball cast by a 15th-level wizard deals points of dammage equal to 60 pluse one half of 10d6" Too bad they didn't use Discentigrate with this example. Fireball is capped at 10d6 so this certainly doesn't settle the argument for sure. However, Consider the following - Empower spell does not increase your effective caster level. Thus, the number of dice rolled should not be increased from the result of using this meta-magic feat. Otherwise, you are saying that using Heighten or any other meta-magic feat should increas the Caster Level varibles. I may be wrong, but when they stated : "...affects half again as many targets..." they were reffering to spells where you roll dice to determine how many affected creatures there are going to be affected not caster lvl dependent effects. I feel the feat is clear in explaining how it increases dammage, and I believe some of us are taking liberties with the word of the law vs the spirit of it. I think this may be the flaw in your 36d6 example. I doubt they intended this feat to increase the # of dice of dammage by 50%. Otherwise, the duration, range, and DC should also be increased accordingly.
Zherog 01-28-05, 12:00 AM	Caleb, you're right, certainly. The results are multiplied by 1.5 to get the grand total. So let's take that 24d6 for casting at 12th level. The average damage is 84. Empower that and you get 126. Now take 36d6. the average damage is.... 126. So, it effectively works out the same when talking averages. In practice you wouldn't roll the extra dice (you'd multiply).
Al2902 01-28-05, 07:43 AM	I can't see what the big deal is about with the new Disintegrate. Not only is it clearly inferior to the 3e Disintegrate, but it's not even that fantastic. Slay Living, a 5th level cleric spell, kills you on a failed save and does 3d6+level (more than 5d6) on a passed save. It's one level lower, so I guess that upping it by one level makes it ranged and grants more versatility (e.g. Disintegrate can be used against objects, Wall of Force and corporeal undead). Unless you're up against undead, Empowered Disintegrate is a pretty stupid strategy. You're far better off with Finger of Death, which doesn't need a ranged touch attack (so no wasted Quickened TS), is guaranteed to kill your opponent, has a higher save DC, lower level and does more damage on a passed save.
FriendoftheDork 01-28-05, 08:00 AM	I've considered taking disintegrate with my 11th level wizard lately, but because of the 3.5 nerf I'm not sure if it's worth it at all except for destroying objects. So far I'm gonna take Contingency and Flesh to Stone instead. Flesh to stone is also a fortitude save, but if failed instead of just 22d6 damage (average 66, pretty good but not a killer) they're simply made into stone (a killer!). And, Flesh stone is not a ray spell at all, but 100+10'/lvl range spell, so it will work more often. The only advantage of disintegrate is the 5d6 damage if save is successful, but that is pretty useless as I do more damage with my empowered or maximized shocking grasp (lvl 3 or lvl 4). Unfortunatly my DM treats all spells as 3.5 even though some were far better in 3.0. Spells are still the only thing I have a problem with in 3.5.
Qube 01-28-05, 09:33 AM	It's one level lower, so I guess that upping it by one level makes it ranged and grants more versatility (e.g. Disintegrate can be used against objects, Wall of Force and corporeal undead). the metamagic feat 'reach spell' for melee touch attack spells to 30 ft ranged touch attack spells is +2; disintegrate still has a longer range and is more versatile.
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-28-05, 11:20 AM	The Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 in the previous encounter can Quicken a True Strike out of a Wand (as per Inc rules in PGtF) for 5 Wand charges. I believe it would cost 4 charges, since the Improved Metamagic ability does apply to Metamagic Spell Trigger.
Keenath 01-28-05, 11:29 AM	There's one other important point in favor of Disintegrate. It doesn't have the Death descriptor, which opens it up to work on a lot more creatures and makes it harder to defend against. If you're searching for save-or-die, you can go better than Disintegrate, but that's how it's always been. Baleful Poly, Flesh to Stone, and Finger of Death are levels 5, 6, and 7 respectively. 3.0 Disintegrate is level 6. So is Flesh to Stone. They have the same range, the same save, and the same target (as long as we're thinking about save-or-die spells). The only difference was Disintegrate had a partial on a save, while FtS doesn't, but FtS doesn't require. It's even the same school! Since we don't like duplicate spells, we should do something to Disintegrate to differentiate it. Like maybe dealing nasty damage, but not being save-or-die.
[GSV] Kirstar 01-28-05, 01:48 PM	disintergrate has its uses... against undead for example. also incantrix... which version are you using? the utterly unbalenced and over powreed first ersion, or the unbalenced 2nd version ?
ck2001wendt 01-28-05, 03:17 PM	Kirstar']also incantrix... which version are you using? the utterly unbalenced and over powreed first ersion, or the unbalenced 2nd version ? The 3.5 version.
Al2902 01-29-05, 11:50 AM	the metamagic feat 'reach spell' for melee touch attack spells to 30 ft ranged touch attack spells is +2; disintegrate still has a longer range and is more versatile. True, but I'm not sure that you can necessarily map a metamagicked spell directly onto a regular one and compare the two. Reach Slay Living is clearly inferior to Destruction on multiple levels, but still has the same overall caster level (7th). Disintegrate is perfectly balanced, probably on a par with Flesh to Stone (less deadly and needs a RTA, but more versatile and inflicts some damage on a save) and weaker than Finger of Death.