Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Bishop 04-22-04, 06:55 PM	I need some help because we are playing tonight and I haven't been able to figure things out in a timely enough fashion. I have made a 3e cleric of Pelor, and I have chosen Healing and Sun as my domains. He has a 14 Wis, if it matters. I can't figure out how to pick my spells. Do I get to choose from all spells all the time? Or is there something more akin to 'available' spells that a mage might have in their spellbook? I am really at a loss and appreciate any help in advance! Thanks, w.
smrtgmp 04-22-04, 06:59 PM	You have access to every spell on the cleric list. You mush choose each morning which spells to pray for, but you can choose from any that you want. Just remember that domain spells can only go in domain slots, which can only be cast once per day.
Edymnion 04-22-04, 07:02 PM	Think of it as being a Wizard with an unlimited spellbook. Each morning you have to pray for spells, just like a Wizard has to study for his spells. However, as a Cleric, you don't need any kind of spellbook, and you can literally pick any spell on your spell list to pray for. Just a suggestion though, you might want to trade around your ability scores, as a Wis of 14 means that you can only cast up to 4th level spells, and you're going to have a lousy save DC on those spells to boot. I'd really suggest at least a 16.
The Bishop 04-22-04, 07:45 PM	Wow guys! Thanks for the prompt responses. I really appreciate your efforts. So, the way I see it is I can pray for any of those spells on my spell list, which includes 0 and 1st level cleric spells (Create Water-Virtue, Bane-Summon Monster I). In addition, I can choose to pray for any of the other (at this point) 2 spells from my domain spell lists (Healing Domain - Cure Light Wounds, Sun Domain - Endure Elements). In addition, I get the requisite Granted Powers for each domain Healing - cast healing spells at +1 caster level (in my case level 2?) Sun - greater turning Did I get it right? And my GM wanted to use the organic stat rolling method, and I rolled poorly, with the 14 being my best roll. So, I guess I just have to hope for some great roleplaying, right? Thanks again, guys! w.
Tony Vargas 04-22-04, 07:46 PM	14 WIS really is the absolute lowest you could get by with - you'll have to put all your level-up stat points into it to be able to keep using your highest level spells as you advance. You do, indeed, get to pick from the whole cleric list, plus, you get to pick one of your two domain spells for the domain slot. Since you have healing, you have the option of taking a healing spell (Cure Light Wounds, at 1st) in your domain slot, maximizing your potential in that department - which is great for your party, but which many players find boring. The Sun spell - Protection f/Energy - isn't much more exciting, though. FWIW. If you stick with the 14 WIS, you may wish to avoid prepping spells that give saving throws - concentrate more on healing and 'buffing' (spells that help your party, like Magic Weapon or Bless). If your other stats make you a fairly good melee combatant - if you have a decent STR & CON - Divine Favor or Shield of Faith can also be good. Each of your non-Domain spells can also be swapped for a Cure Light Wounds spell at need - and, you'll probably find that there's need quite a lot.
Edymnion 04-22-04, 08:01 PM	Or perhaps if you have a good Intelligence and/or Charisma (in this case, 10-14), you could be the mastermind of the party, or the party leader. I hate to say it this way, but the image I get is from Wizard of Oz, when the wicked witch of the west is gazing into her crystal ball at Dorothy and company, and orders her flying monkeys out with the classic, "Fly! Fly my pretties!" Not that you'd be evil, but you'd be the one there in the back casting the buff spells and sending the rest of the party to do battle on your behalf. Something you might want to look into is the Reach Spell (I think thats the right name for it) metamagic feat from Defenders of the Faith. Turn your touch spells into ray spells. That way you can do your Cure X Wound spells from a safe distance, and maybe even turn a couple of offensive touch spells into ranged touched spells. Its not very economical for you at lvl 1, but something to keep an eye on for later on, when you can afford the +2 level adjustment.
The Bishop 04-22-04, 08:07 PM	Originally posted by Tony Vargas 14 WIS really is the absolute lowest you could get by with - you'll have to put all your level-up stat points into it to be able to keep using your highest level spells as you advance. You do, indeed, get to pick from the whole cleric list, plus, you get to pick one of your two domain spells for the domain slot. Since you have healing, you have the option of taking a healing spell (Cure Light Wounds, at 1st) in your domain slot, maximizing your potential in that department - which is great for your party, but which many players find boring. The Sun spell - Protection f/Energy - isn't much more exciting, though. FWIW. If you stick with the 14 WIS, you may wish to avoid prepping spells that give saving throws - concentrate more on healing and 'buffing' (spells that help your party, like Magic Weapon or Bless). If your other stats make you a fairly good melee combatant - if you have a decent STR & CON - Divine Favor or Shield of Faith can also be good. Each of your non-Domain spells can also be swapped for a Cure Light Wounds spell at need - and, you'll probably find that there's need quite a lot. Yeah, the 14 sucks. But I've played enough badasses that maybe this is my time to switch it up. I also agree about the Sun domain spell...not really exciting. I'll keep that in mind about the healing spells and altering others' combat abilitites. That confirms what I was already figuring out. We are playing Black Sails over Freeport, and I wanted to make a kind of exorcist character. Maybe it'll work. w.
smrtgmp 04-22-04, 08:10 PM	Eddy makes some very good points. Even so I would recomend a higher wisdom, if for no other reason that it will provide you with more bonus spells. Since you said somethin g about an exorcist character, maybe you should have Cha as your higest stat, so that you can be better at turning. Just a thought. Happy gaming.
The Bishop 04-22-04, 08:10 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Or perhaps if you have a good Intelligence and/or Charisma (in this case, 10-14), you could be the mastermind of the party, or the party leader. I hate to say it this way, but the image I get is from Wizard of Oz, when the wicked witch of the west is gazing into her crystal ball at Dorothy and company, and orders her flying monkeys out with the classic, "Fly! Fly my pretties!" Not that you'd be evil, but you'd be the one there in the back casting the buff spells and sending the rest of the party to do battle on your behalf. Something you might want to look into is the Reach Spell (I think thats the right name for it) metamagic feat from Defenders of the Faith. Turn your touch spells into ray spells. That way you can do your Cure X Wound spells from a safe distance, and maybe even turn a couple of offensive touch spells into ranged touched spells. Its not very economical for you at lvl 1, but something to keep an eye on for later on, when you can afford the +2 level adjustment. Yeah, I like the mastermind of the party idea. I'm gonna go with that. There are two other players, and one is a fialed paladin of Pelor who is travelling with my character to Freeport to set up some Pelor shop. So, I'll have his backing all the way. The other character thus far is a wanna-be pirate, so that could cause some friction...but characters can sometimes swear allegiance when they really need to get healed, right? That's brilliant about the reach spell. That could really up the ante, especially if I get to a level where I might have a slot or two to play around with (damn that 14 Wis!). w.
The Bishop 04-22-04, 08:16 PM	Originally posted by smrtgmp Eddy makes some very good points. Even so I would recomend a higher wisdom, if for no other reason that it will provide you with more bonus spells. Since you said somethin g about an exorcist character, maybe you should have Cha as your higest stat, so that you can be better at turning. Just a thought. Happy gaming. Unfortunately the character has already been rolled. And the fighter rolled probably a little worse than I did, so I can't really complain. The GM is good, and will most likely take the lower stats into consideration and not populate the world with uberBadAsses. He is pretty good about developing magic items that help augment relatively poor characters and introducing them early in the game. You can rest assured that I will be putting my stat bumps into Wisdom for at least a few chances. Then, as you say, putting them into Charisma, which is at 10 right now. I'm used to playing Call of Cthulhu, so I am prepared for my character's eminent death! Seriously, though, this could be a good chance to play the underdog guy. I really liked playing through the Freeport Trilogy, because it allowed for some Lovecraftian investigations, subterfuge, and sneakery, in addition to having some serious combat. At least I'm not taking this guy into the Tomb of Horrors... w.
Elrana 04-22-04, 08:19 PM	There is absolutely no point in EVER memorising healing spells if you are a good cleric . You have the ability to spontaneously cast any spell in memory as a heal spell of equivalent level, therefore maximise your flexibility/appropriateness to environment by learning other spells and if you need to heal then decide which one you will need the least when the time comes and convert it. :angel:
Edymnion 04-22-04, 08:29 PM	You mentioned black sails and a pirate wanna-be, so just a few things to consider tactics wise. Waterbreathing is going to be an excellent spell to have handy. If you're in ship to ship combat, what better way to sink the other guy than to cast waterbreathing on somebody with a hand-drill, have them jump overboard, and go to work on the bottom of the other guy's hull (I mean, really, who puts defensive posts on the BOTTOM of their boat?). Another one, Fire is going to be your best friend in a naval campaign. Set fire to the other guy's sails, and watch the chaos that ensues. The thought of being stranded on the high seas, combined with the fact that the only thing between you and the sharks is a piece of flammable wood means they're gonna HATE fire. Might also want to prepare your own ship for that sort of attack as well (aka coat the inside or outside of your hull in something like Mithril to prevent bores, have a quick and handy way to put out fires, etc). If you've got a half-way decent Dex score, you could also try to go the path of the Cleric Archer, which can be an absurdly powerful build if you do it right. Again, you could go fire with a flaming bow. Don't aim at the people, aim at the burnable sections of the ship. Of course, if I misread that and you're NOT going to be out on the water any time, well... just sorta ignore this post :P
smrtgmp 04-22-04, 08:30 PM	Can you spontaneously cast domain spells as healing spells? I thought once you picked your domain spell for the day, it way set. Just a thought, can a cleric leave a spell slot open like a wizard, so that they could fill it with 15 minutes of prayer later in the day?
The Bishop 04-22-04, 08:43 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion You mentioned black sails and a pirate wanna-be, so just a few things to consider tactics wise. Waterbreathing is going to be an excellent spell to have handy. If you're in ship to ship combat, what better way to sink the other guy than to cast waterbreathing on somebody with a hand-drill, have them jump overboard, and go to work on the bottom of the other guy's hull (I mean, really, who puts defensive posts on the BOTTOM of their boat?). Another one, Fire is going to be your best friend in a naval campaign. Set fire to the other guy's sails, and watch the chaos that ensues. The thought of being stranded on the high seas, combined with the fact that the only thing between you and the sharks is a piece of flammable wood means they're gonna HATE fire. Might also want to prepare your own ship for that sort of attack as well (aka coat the inside or outside of your hull in something like Mithril to prevent bores, have a quick and handy way to put out fires, etc). If you've got a half-way decent Dex score, you could also try to go the path of the Cleric Archer, which can be an absurdly powerful build if you do it right. Again, you could go fire with a flaming bow. Don't aim at the people, aim at the burnable sections of the ship. Of course, if I misread that and you're NOT going to be out on the water any time, well... just sorta ignore this post :P Wow. Great stuff. I'm gonna take all of that under consideration. Would an exorcist style character go the path of the Cleric Archer, though? Perhaps. Can you extrapolate on that further? Is it a prestige class or something? In any case, I will certainly aim for the burny parts... w.
Elrana 04-22-04, 08:44 PM	Originally posted by smrtgmp Can you spontaneously cast domain spells as healing spells? I thought once you picked your domain spell for the day, it way set. Just a thought, can a cleric leave a spell slot open like a wizard, so that they could fill it with 15 minutes of prayer later in the day? The PHB says that you can't convert domain spells, I get the feeling that this is because your domain is specifically giving you a bonus spell that must come from within that domain. However, I would certainly rule that if Healing is one of your domains then you may convert as you are still casting a domain spell. In real terms you would probably have to consider that my house rule (and so discuss it with your DM/players if you want to use it), but it is one that makes sense. No, unfortunately a cleric can't leave open slots and then med for 15 minutes later on. A cleric has to spend an hour in prayer at a given time every day in order to be granted spells by his god.
The Bishop 04-22-04, 08:47 PM	Originally posted by smrtgmp Can you spontaneously cast domain spells as healing spells? I thought once you picked your domain spell for the day, it way set. Just a thought, can a cleric leave a spell slot open like a wizard, so that they could fill it with 15 minutes of prayer later in the day? The third edition rules (which we are using for the Feeport game) state: "A cleric can't use spontaneous casting to convert domain spells into cure or inflict spells. These spells arise from the particular powers of the cleric's deity, not divine energy in general."[PHB, 32] I haven't looked at the 3.5 stuff. [sorry for repeating Elrana!] w.
The Bishop 04-22-04, 08:49 PM	Elrana's house rule makes sense, especially if Healing is one of your deity's domains. We'll see what my GM says on the matter though! w.
Edymnion 04-22-04, 09:18 PM	Originally posted by The Bishop Wow. Great stuff. I'm gonna take all of that under consideration. Would an exorcist style character go the path of the Cleric Archer, though? Perhaps. Can you extrapolate on that further? Is it a prestige class or something? Actually no, its a normal cleric that uses a bow. Mainly because you can spend feats on the bow and still get 100% of your spellcasting ability at the same time. And if you use a lot of Ray spells (like if you take Reach spell), then feats like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot apply to your ray spells as well as your bow. General idea is to get a mighty (composit in 3.5) bow that lets you use +4 strength bonus, and cast Divine Power for a huge BAB jump, ups your strength to 18, and gives you more hitpoints. Combine that with a feat like Zen Archery that lets you use your Wisdom bonus to hit instead of your Dex bonus, and you'll be a monster. Lets you sit in the back row all nice and safe where you can buff your guys when you need to, and lets you whip out a BAB (thats a Big *** Bow) and lay down some smack when nobody needs healing, and do so from a safe distance.
The Bishop 04-23-04, 12:07 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Actually no, its a normal cleric that uses a bow. Mainly because you can spend feats on the bow and still get 100% of your spellcasting ability at the same time. And if you use a lot of Ray spells (like if you take Reach spell), then feats like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot apply to your ray spells as well as your bow. General idea is to get a mighty (composit in 3.5) bow that lets you use +4 strength bonus, and cast Divine Power for a huge BAB jump, ups your strength to 18, and gives you more hitpoints. Combine that with a feat like Zen Archery that lets you use your Wisdom bonus to hit instead of your Dex bonus, and you'll be a monster. Lets you sit in the back row all nice and safe where you can buff your guys when you need to, and lets you whip out a BAB (thats a Big *** Bow) and lay down some smack when nobody needs healing, and do so from a safe distance. That might be the coolest thing I've heard. Evar. w.
Elrana 04-23-04, 12:10 PM	If only clerics were proficient with bows...
Beamup 04-23-04, 12:16 PM	Making it cost one more feat. It still works just fine.
Elrana 04-23-04, 12:29 PM	Originally posted by Beamup Making it cost one more feat. It still works just fine. Thanks. It seems like a lot of feats to be wasting. If what you want is a cleric archer then surely the trick is to become a non-specific cleric, choose the war domain and convince your DM that as your given weapon for the granted power of that domain you want to have composite longbow. Immediately you have proficiency and focus and are half way there, plus divine power becomes a domain spell. I would also recommend having two bows. One which maximises your divine power strength bonus and one which you can use outside of the few rounds that the spell lasts.
Beamup 04-23-04, 12:38 PM	It's feat-intensive, certainly. But even if you had proficiency already, there are at least 5 feats an archer REALLY wants (Focus, Point Blank Shot, (Improved) Precise Shot, Rapid Shot) so an extra 1 isn't that bad compared to what you're already spending. But War(Longbow) is definitely an excellent option for a cleric archer if it's allowed, yes.
Edymnion 04-23-04, 01:07 PM	Or if he can still change his race, he can be an elf for free prof. If he's human, he can spend his bonus feat on the longbow prof. But really, he's a cleric, what else is he going to spend those feats on? Not like he really needs Extra Turning with the Sun Domain under his belt. If he's going to be a back row buffer, there aren't a lot of feats that would help him out. Might as well invest in something that will let him have some active part in combat other than buffing and healing, and at least this way he can stay safely out of harm's way while doing it. ESPECIALLY since his highest score is a 14 in wisdom. Another fun thing you can do, see if your DM will let you get blunted arrows. Just an arrow with a blunt tip that does only one or two points of subdual (sorry, non-lethal) damage instead of piercing. Then get Spellstoring on your bow/arrows and store healing spells in 'em. Want to heal an ally, but don't wanna stop shooting? Draw a blunted Healing arrow, and shoot your friend in the back with it. He takes the subdual damage, then have the healing spell kick off. Congrats, LONG range healing.
Beamup 04-23-04, 01:09 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Want to heal an ally, but don't wanna stop shooting? Draw a blunted Healing arrow, and shoot your friend in the back with it. He takes the subdual damage, then have the healing spell kick off. Congrats, LONG range healing. :rofl: I :inlove: that image.
Edymnion 04-23-04, 01:15 PM	Originally posted by Beamup :rofl: I :inlove: that image. "Oww! What the frell do you think you're doi.... Whew! Tingly! Thanks buddy!"
The Bishop 04-23-04, 04:39 PM	Keeping in line with the exorcist idea, I chose Extra Turning as my feat. I chose that not because it makes the best sense as far as powering the guy up, but because I like the concept. Indeed, I see him as a frenetic zealot, who through force of character has put the blinders on and attacks the undead. Ideas? Coments? w.
Elrana 04-23-04, 06:09 PM	It is a good feat but you are in danger of the DM not throwing any undead at you and thus not getting the option to utilise it. However, if this is the case you can maintain its usefulness even in an undead free environment by using it as a springboard for many of the divine feats made available in the Complete Warrior which are well worth having a look at. I particularly recommend Divine Vigour if you are doing the cleric archer thing, just see the 'good archer tactics' thread to see how many players rate the benefits of accelerated movement.
The Bishop 04-23-04, 06:38 PM	Well, the GM really nudged me in the arm with a few things before we made characters. Firstly, I was told that we would be playing Black Sails over Freeport. Secondly, he said that we may want a cleric of Pelor in the party, and this was directly after his first readthrough of the campaign. Now that the character is made, we have to go through some adventures of his own design to bring us all up to sixth level for the Freeport campaign, and he has been really good int he past about creating adventures that fit the party and make use of its obvious flaws as well as good parts. I know I'm taking a chance, but the stats I rolled kind of predestined that this character should be more of a personality rather than an UberClericBadAss. We will also be using the core books for 3e, and that's it, unless the GM comes up with things that make sense (magic weapons, amulet of clerics that don't suck, etc.). So, no splatbook stuff in the near future. I doubt that my stats are high enough for any prestige classes anyways. Here's a thought. One of the other players wants us to drop Freeport into the Scarred Lands campaign world so that he can run some stuff. I glanced through a few of his books, but didn't really see anything that stuck out as being really cool enough to develop my character with (deity, prestige class, etc.). That certainly doesn't mean that there wasn't anything cool in there, though. w.