Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gadren 06-13-05, 12:16 AM	Hey, I was thinking of making an "Improved Haste" spell, that uses the old haste spell description from third edition, just making it a higher level. The question is, what level should it be, and why do you think that? Improved Haste Transmutation Level: ? Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 action Range: Close (25 ft. +5 ft./2 levels) Target: One Creature Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The transmuted creature moves and acts more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects. On his turn, the subject may take an extra standard or move action, either before or after his regular action. He gains a +4 haste bonus to AC. He loses this bonus whenver he would lose a dodge bonus. He can jump one and a half times as far as normal. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus. Improved Haste dispels and counters Slow. Material Component: A shaving of licorice root.
Nephlite 06-13-05, 12:30 AM	Hey, I was thinking of making a "True Haste" spell, that uses the old haste spell description from third edition, just making it a higher level. The question is, what level should it be, and why do you think that? SRD to compare: Haste Transmutation Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects. When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.) A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed. Multiple haste effects don't stack. Haste dispels and counters slow. Material Component: A shaving of licorice root. Hmm, I'd do this maybe: True Haste Transmutation Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: One creature in range Duration: 1 round/4 caster levels Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The transmuted creature moves and acts more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects. On his turn, the subject may take an extra standard, either before or after his regular action. He gains a +4 haste bonus to AC. He loses this bonus whenver he would lose a dodge bonus. He can jump one and a half times as far as normal. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus. I lowered duration because the benefit is so powerful. I moved it back to one creature like 3.0 haste. Highest bard spell is 6th so 6th level bard. I hesitated to make 7th so I moved it to 8th spell for wiz/sorc.
Zardnaar 06-13-05, 01:12 AM	In the old haste threads people were willing to use it as a level 8 spell or even 9 if timestop was banned.
runestar 06-13-05, 01:14 AM	That extreme huh? I think a 7th lv slot would suffice for a "as is" 3.0 haste.
Zardnaar 06-13-05, 01:25 AM	That extreme huh? I think a 7th lv slot would suffice for a "as is" 3.0 haste. Not really. A 7th level spell slot could be used to quicken a 1st-3rd level spell. With haste you can cast 2 spells a round, every round of whatever level you want. Theres a reason quicken spell is +4 levels so a haste effect (which is better than quicken) should be at least +5 levels. My recommendation is if you really want to have haste 3.0 effect in a 3.5 game put a 1000xp cost on it (based on 2nd ed haste aged you 1 year. Wish aged you 5 years and now costs 5000xp to cast). That way you still have access to haste but at a very steep price. If you ressurrect it be prepared for situations like a wizard using invisabilty gets a surprise round casts haste, casts another spell, wins initiative and then casts another 2. 4 spells cast total before they even get a go (or more if they combo it with timestop).
Elgonn 06-13-05, 01:47 AM	3.0 Haste always was and will be easily worth even the highest level slot you can cast. Even into epic and post 9th level slots. Why? Because the benefit is an always accelerating curve. There is no limiting factor to mitigate the use of an extra standard. Because what people can do with a single action keep exponentially increasing so does the benefit of the spell. If you ever attempt to bring it back you'll have to impose a Schism-esque penalty to limit it.
Gadren 06-13-05, 02:55 AM	schism-esque?
Elgonn 06-13-05, 03:14 AM	Schism is the 3.5 Psionic version of 3.0 Haste. It is in the SRD. It has specific odd limitations that don't directly translate to normal magic. In semi-normal terms it would be like saying that with your extra action you could cast spells as if you were 6 levels lower. You can't manage your most powerful effects and even the caster level of the lower level spells you can manage aren't at full strength. It doesn't quite directly translate though. EDIT: Schism is also only a caster's version of 3.0 Haste. There isn't any mechanic I've seen to quite balance out the melee's version of an extra standard action. Move + Full Attack is plenty good. Other things like Hustle mimic it but don't have a duration like a Haste commonality would require.
DungeonMaster 06-13-05, 04:06 AM	I'm honestly increadulous at how people still claim 3rd edition haste is "that bad" in light of 3.5 non-core. You now have all sorts of similar if not more broken effects granting everything from dual-wand use to metamagic rods to split rays to quick action spells... the list goes on. It was easier simpler and more elegant when things were a "haste" effect.
Zardnaar 06-13-05, 04:12 AM	The swift spells are generally useful but weak. Metamagic rods originated in 3.0 and 3.0 non core was more broken than 3.5. The most broken book ever? 3.0/3.5 players handbook.
runestar 06-13-05, 08:09 AM	Swift spells tend to factor in the fact that quicken spell has already been applied to them, so their effects are usually much weaker than other spells of the same lv. You have tons of similar effects in 3.5, imagine the abuse if 3.0 haste were to return.....