Post/Author/DateTime	Post
whiteflame 06-13-04, 05:17 PM	Okay my level 16 fighter has 4 daggers of returing His base attack Bonus is +16/+11/+6/+1, if he uses quick draw to draw and attack with all 4 of his daggers. The would fly back and return to his hand ready to throw again before his turn starts. But since he threw 4 daggers and only two hands would it be right that the other two daggers would fall on the ground? I’m pretty sure that’s how it would work, would it be possible to quick draw in reverse, once the first 2 daggers come back to him he puts them away so he has two empty hands for the remaining daggers? Thanks in advance.
Tasaleen 06-13-04, 05:25 PM	I'm not sure what the mechanics are, but in one game I played in the DM let a friend tune the returning knife to a sheath so it would return there instead of his hand. This of course was for some extra gold.
Egres 06-13-04, 08:22 PM	Well,in a game where a medium level Bbr,falling from an altitude of 15.000 ft,will quiet-surely survive,well ,i have no difficulties to imagine an experienced thrower making a Kenshiro-style-move,taking all the daggers with a single,quick movement. A-tah!:D
meabolex 06-13-04, 08:44 PM	Not to rain on any parades or anything. . . from the SRD's definition of the returning weapon mod If the character can’t catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown. So you'd only be able to catch two of them (assuming you have 2 hands free). Quick draw allows you draw a weapon as a free action, but not sheathe one. So the two daggers would (at the beginning of next round) end up on the ground in the square where you threw them. Since you're a level 16 fighter, you have plenty of feats to spare: Your DM may let you get away with this: QUICK SHEATHE Prereqs: Quick Draw, Lightning Reflexes, Dex 15 Benefit: You may sheathe your weapon (or any number of weapons you are carrying) as a free action. When you sheathe weapons this way, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity. You may catch throwing weapons with the returning weapon modifier and sheathe them as free actions at the beginning of your turn. Normal: Sheathing a weapon is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Egres 06-13-04, 09:23 PM	Well,at least try to buy Teleporting daggers in place of returning ones:you can at least avoid the risk to make them drop if you moved after you throw them.
Lawrence 06-13-04, 10:40 PM	Well, another issue to a returning weapon is you get the benefit of it coming back to your hand, but no where in the regular description of the ability does it say 'you run the risk of your +2 throwing + returning greatsword returning blade first, causing <insert damage here> I would say the effect of the ability, in considering to somethign as small as a dagger, could let you hold a couple in a hand, but you cannot throw them again in that fashion (so you'd get them all back, but you have to put some up or drop them anyways) just a thought.
Egres 06-13-04, 10:44 PM	I would say the effect of the ability, in considering to somethign as small as a dagger, could let you hold a couple in a hand, but you cannot throw them again in that fashion (so you'd get them all back, but you have to put some up or drop them anyways) Well,in this case the Palm Throw trick of the MT can surely help.
whiteflame 06-14-04, 02:30 PM	I thought that it would be something like that. Wasnt sure though, I Meabolex I think that your feat has to high requriments. Putting a weapon in a seath really isnt that effective in combat. It is in this situation but this is fairly specific. I had an idea to have as a plus +2 enchantment have the weapon return to the seath instead, but since that seems a little underpowered the weapon wiill even return as long as you didnt move over 5 feet. Would that be balanced?
meabolex 06-14-04, 03:43 PM	Originally posted by whiteflame Meabolex I think that your feat has to high requriments. Putting a weapon in a seath really isnt that effective in combat. It is in this situation but this is fairly specific. Until you fight a sundering fighter (: Or a spellcaster who's trying to grease your weapon. The bottom line is that it fixes the AoO and the speed of the action -- two big negatives. It requires higher prereqs because it does more. If you don't negate the attack of opportunity, you'll be royally screwed at the beginning of your next round when the knives come back IF enemies threaten you. You can either have the two weapons drop on the ground or take 2 AoOs if you sheathe the weapons.
Dunbar 06-14-04, 08:17 PM	Is there any good reason not to re-work the returning property so that it instantly returns to the owner so they can throw it again that round? So the above barbarian would only need 1 dagger of returning to use all of his iterative attacks. Or maybe make this a +2 enchantment instead of +1. It just seems unfair to require a thrown weapon fighter to have 4 (5 with rapid shot) copies of the same weapon as well as having them all enchanted with the returning enchantment and the quick draw feat in order to fight effectively at range, when an archer needs only a single non-magical bow and no feats to take all of his attacks. Sure the thrown weapon fighter has a melee weapon in hand when needed; but the archer could get quickdraw too and just as easily draw a melee weapon when needed. Is the use of thrown weapons so overpowering that we need to cripple it at high levels? And if so, what am I missing?
Salla 06-14-04, 08:42 PM	I would allow someone to chuck and catch the daggers, myself ... if a visual was needed, I'd imagine it like this. Daggers are thrown, one after another. Daggers start returning. Catch one in right hand, pass blade to left hand, between the index finger and thumb. Catch next one in right hand, pass blade to left hand, between the index and middle finger. Et Cetera.
Kermez 07-13-04, 04:40 AM	Originally posted by Tasaleen I'm not sure what the mechanics are, but in one game I played in the DM let a friend tune the returning knife to a sheath so it would return there instead of his hand. This of course was for some extra gold. If can ever remember or find out the specifics (cost, prerequisites, caster level, etc.), I'd be extremely interested in seeing them posted (or e-mailed to me). :angel:
Phrennzy 07-13-04, 12:24 PM	Couldn't you just juggle them as they return? That would be awesome. And then someone could throw you a bowling ball an egg and a chainsaw as well. Dude that would be sweet! :ayyyy!:
elindred 07-13-04, 12:53 PM	Gloves of Storing would let you do it, if your dm lets you take free actions in the middle of an action (ie, a full attack)
tarkin 07-13-04, 03:05 PM	You can hold 4 daggers in your hand. You just can't throw/attack with them like that. I would rule that the first dagger appeared in your main hand and the rest appeared in your off hand, and you could use a free action to take a dagger held in your off hand into your good hand making it ready to throw.
Tony Vargas 07-13-04, 03:14 PM	Nothing stops you from holding more than one dagger in the same hand (picture a classic knife thrower). You could catch daggers with one hand, transfering them to the other, then throw them back, one at a time, transfering them from the 'holding' hand to the 'throwing hand.' Switching from one hand to another is free. However, I'd prefer to picture the character throwing the daggers, then, as they come back, catching and re-throwing them. Afterall, he doesn't throw them all at the exact insant, they needn't return at the exact instant, either.