Post/Author/DateTime	Post
IMarvinTPA 10-12-04, 07:41 PM	The spell Shrink item reduces the mass and volume by 1/4096, (1/16)^3, and activates when it strikes a solid (or a command word.). So, first you buy 4096 vials of acid, put it all in a glass bath tub, shrink it, and put it into one of the empty vials. Next, you hand it to your rogue to throw. Does it give you the potential to do 4096d6 acid damage (+sneak attack?)? If you miss, you do a flat 4096 damage to all neighboring squares to where it lands? This could work with alchemist's fire or holy water as well. How do you adjudicate this? Thanks, Andy
Feneem 10-12-04, 08:09 PM	The maximum damage for full immersion in acid is 10d6 (Maybe 20d6, not sure). The attack would deal at most this much damage.
IMarvinTPA 10-12-04, 08:23 PM	I think it's 20d6. So simply stick with 20 shrunken vials and enjoy. That's still pretty good. 200gp, you can have a pretty good attack.
kSquared 10-12-04, 08:34 PM	Immersion in acid is 10d6 damage. ACID EFFECTS Corrosive acids deals 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure except in the case of total immersion (such as into a vat of acid), which deals 10d6 points of damage per round. An attack with acid, such as from a hurled vial or a monster’s spittle, counts as a round of exposure.Also, shrink item says: Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster.A stone floor or gravel-paved road is a solid surface, but what about a creature? Gelatinous oozes? Air elementals? Are they really "solid surfaces"? I'd question this. If you counter that you can use the command word in any case, I'd reply that it would take a bit of luck to time it right. Say the command word too early, and a bathtub-ful of acid drops in midair; say it too late and the effect is wasted, with the acid already splashed on the ground.
crazysamaritan 10-12-04, 09:21 PM	4096 shrunken vials of acid on the wall, 4096 shrunken vials of acid on the wall, you take one down, and pass it around, 4095 shrunken vials of acid on the wall! Sorry, I couldn't resist :blush:
Zherog 10-12-04, 09:25 PM	:rofl:
Thomar_of_Uointer 10-12-04, 09:43 PM	This is an excellent tactic. A :cookie: for you, Marvin. I'd say 10d6 is fine, though I would check the rules on immersion in lava and make sure that it isn't more than that. Depending on the quantity of acid you use, you may or may not "splash" into adjacent squares, or leave a big pool (and subsequent hole).
IMarvinTPA 10-13-04, 11:34 AM	A stone floor or gravel-paved road is a solid surface, but what about a creature? Yes, you aren't pooling on the ground, are you? Gelatinous oozes? Probably not. Try to hit the floor or let the vial hit and then use the command word. Air elementals? No, sadly.
IMarvinTPA 10-13-04, 11:38 AM	Lava is much better and cheaper: free! 20d6 from total immersion, and 10d6 for 1d3 additional rounds after exposure ends. Fire immunity applies. Let the deviousness begin. :schemes:
Krelios 10-13-04, 11:52 AM	4096 vials of acid would cost 40,960gp, so for a single attack, that's a lot of money. Would anyone buy a one-time magic item for that? Since the reasoning seems to be that it would cap at full immersion (which makes sense), you've got a 10d6 attack that deals 10 points to squares around it for 100 gold. Now that's a bargain. Of course, you have to be capable of casting shrink item (so you're a 5th level wizard or 6th level sorcerer); or you can pay someone to shrink it all for you (raising the cost proportionally). As a practical example, let's assume the person using this tactic is a 5th level wizard. He decides to max out alchemy (8 ranks) and he has a 19 Intelligence (he got an 18 at 1st and put his 4th-level point into it). That gives him a Craft (Alchemy) score of +12. Let's give him a Masterwork Alchemist's Lab to work in (if you're going to be using this tactic, that's a good investment) for a total of +14. If he takes 10 on his crafting rolls (which most people in this situation would), he gets a result of 24. Multiplied by the DC of acid (15) you get progress of 360 silver pieces per week. That's 3 vials per week, with some time left over. Bump the DC up to 20 to increase the crafting time and you've got 480 silver pieces per week. If your DM allows for bumps in increments other than 5s, bump the DC to 24 and craft at a maximum of 576sp per week, then you can get either 4 or 5 vials per week. Either way, that means you can only make enough acid for this trick after a 2-4 weeks of crafting. Not very practical after all. Lots of people will say, "Just buy the acid." It's more expensive that way, but you don't have to wait. Of course, who has all those vials around when it takes so long to craft?
tarkin 10-13-04, 02:11 PM	Each dose of Acid, Poison, burning Oil, Holywater, and other such area effect/grenade weapons, must be delivered seperately. Additional doses do NOT deal additional damage. Same thing with a shapeable spell. If you shape a fire spell so that it affects everyone in a U shape, and a Huge creature is in both the west arm and the right arm of the U, he only takes damage once. You do not do more damage because you hit them twice. Similarly, you do not do more damage for hitting a person with an extra large quantity of acid, poison, burning oil, or Holy Water. Instead, the extra stuff drips/flows/falls off their body before it can do any damage. (Unless of course, they are standing in a pool of acid - then the acid can not drip/flow/fall off) To do additional damage, you must wait for the stuff to be absorbed/burned/ etc. (which takes less than a second, but does take time) then attack them again. That is why Melf's acid arrow does 2d4 per round instead 2d4 x level instantly.
Krelios 10-13-04, 02:17 PM	Each dose of Acid, Poison, burning Oil, Holywater, and other such area effect/grenade weapons, must be delivered seperately. Additional doses do NOT deal additional damage. Same thing with a shapeable spell. If you shape a fire spell so that it affects everyone in a U shape, and a Huge creature is in both the west arm and the right arm of the U, he only takes damage once. You do not do more damage because you hit them twice. Similarly, you do not do more damage for hitting a person with an extra large quantity of acid, poison, burning oil, or Holy Water. To do additional damage, you must wait for the stuff to be absorbed/burned/ etc. (which takes less than a second, but does take time) then attack them again. Mind quoting that rule? It does defy common sense you know. (Except for the shapeable spell bit, but that's not relevant here since we're not talking about shaped spells). In fact, it defies the rules since immersion (being hit by lots of acid at once) does more damage than a single vial (being hit by a little bit of acid).
Etiquette_Gnome 10-13-04, 02:38 PM	Also, that U shaped spell is a single instance of an effect on the creature. Multiple vials is multiple effects on a single creature. This is going by the same reasoning of someone tying three vials of acid together and throwing them at a target; or having three seperate people throw three seperate vials at a target. By your reasoning, two mages timing their actions and casting fireballs on the same creature would be wasting their time (or one mage with a triggered fireball).
Bedevere 10-13-04, 05:22 PM	Sorry to spoil the fun, but shrink can only target one object. You'll need one casting per vial of acid you use, which will take a lot of time. Also, since the duration is 1 day/level, you are limited in how many you can make. Of course, permanency can affect the spell, but this seems a hideously costly way of making such an item in this case... Shame, because the idea was an original, cool, fun one. Something the last group I DM'ed for rarely came up with. :(
IMarvinTPA 10-13-04, 06:01 PM	Sorry to spoil the fun, but shrink can only target one object. Of course, permanency can affect the spell, but this seems a hideously costly way of making such an item in this case... You dump all the vials into one bigger container first, thus you shrink the one pool of acid. If you know you're going to use it soon, it's not a problem. Date your bottles. If you won't use it in time, dump it back out and refresh it. Permanency actually spoils it. IMarv
carnivore 10-13-04, 08:55 PM	"Originally Posted by SRD v.3.5 Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster." this seems to me that there are 2 ways to unshrink an item: 1)tossing it on any solid surface 2)saying the command word(only works for the caster, nobody else can say it to re-enlarge the items) then the question is what happens if you are doused with 512 gallons of acid,....or even 512 gallons of water, are you just a little damp or are you soaked and completely wet, dripping. if you are covered that completely with acid .....hmmmmm, i think you would be taking more than 1d6 damage, a lot more. the SRD says: "ACID EFFECTS Corrosive acids deals 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure except in the case of total immersion (such as into a vat of acid), which deals 10d6 points of damage per round. An attack with acid, such as from a hurled vial or a monster’s spittle, counts as a round of exposure. The fumes from most acids are inhaled poisons. Those who come close enough to a large body of acid to dunk a creature in it must make a DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1 point of Constitution damage. All such characters must make a second save 1 minute later or take another 1d4 points of Constitution damage. Creatures immune to acid’s caustic properties might still drown in it if they are totally immersed (see Drowning)." although you are not immersed in acid you initially were for the first round, the effects still affect you even after the initial exposure as you remain covered in acid soaked clothing , armor, and other equipment.......unless you are wearing special stay dry acid proof stuff. it would seem to me that 10d6 the first round and reduce the damage 1d6 each additional round until you remove your acid soaked clothes and items,or they take enough damage that they fall off on thier own , or the acid reaches 0d6 damage, or the acid is neutralized or diluted somehow. also you may want them to roll saving throws vs inhaling the fumes if they are covered with that much acid or take damage as inhaled poisons. i dont think this would be unbalancing as it would be similar to a fireball that was changed to do acid damage , the cap is 10d6....but the spell is an instantaneous effect so would not have the continuing damage. also who in thier right mind would waste 40960gp for a one time thing. if someone wants to spend that much , fine let them..as there are many better ways to spend the money and later they will regret the waste of all that gold. i actually work with acids and some acids are strong enough that even slight exposure is very painful, even the vapors which you cannot see can cause severe burns and blindness. hope this helps :)
Loren Pechtel 10-14-04, 02:25 AM	1) The 10d6 cap is an issue. In fact, if you're going to throw at a creature I would limit it to 5d6 as you can only hit one side of the creature. 2) I would consider any solid creature a suitable target. Air elementals etc wouldn't detonate it. 3) If you're in a dungeon, throw at the ceiling above the creature. It's easier to hit and the acid will rain down on it anyway. Things like air elementals can also be hit. 4) My inclination on delivery efficiency: I would say you need to use the square of the number of vials that you actually want to hit, as the more you throw the more is just going to be splattered away. 5) Heavy hits would leave a puddle that would continue to do 1d6 if the creature didn't move. 6) This tactic strikes me as useful if you're bugging out. Lets take a flask with say 10 alchemists fire and 500 ordinary lamp oil in it. Throw it at a chokepoint. Sure, the lamp oil doesn't burn like the alchemists fire but with the alchemists fire burning the lamp oil will also. I'd limit it to 10d6 damage, but I would also say the fuel only burns at that rate--it's going to keep burning for a while.
Raven Dark 10-14-04, 02:37 AM	I would consider any solid creature a suitable target. Air elementals etc wouldn't detonate it. An air elemental is a solid creature (it is not incorporeal) by the RAW. The vile would detonate on it like it would any other creature. What you (and others) are proposing is a house rule. There is nothing wrong with houserules either, I just tire of people making such mistakes as saying that air elementals aren't solid and that fire elementals can be killed by drowning/immersion in water. Such statements simply aren't true.
masterofmayhem 10-14-04, 10:46 AM	1) The 10d6 cap is an issue. In fact, if you're going to throw at a creature I would limit it to 5d6 as you can only hit one side of the creature. Would the acid not expand suddenly in all directions, enveloping the target as it grew to full size? 3) If you're in a dungeon, throw at the ceiling above the creature. It's easier to hit and the acid will rain down on it anyway. Things like air elementals can also be hit. Wouldn't that also get the full 10d6?
Varrik 10-14-04, 12:20 PM	Hm. Great Idea. But I'd allow the recipient a reflex save to reduce damage by half. I don't think ALL of the acid would hit. In the case of a single vial, the quantity is small and it can be assumed all of it would splash on the target. But with that much acid, not all of it would reach or douse the poor subject. And if you hit the ceiling, then they should get a chance to dive out of the way.