Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rules_lawer_01 10-25-03, 05:21 AM	Please skips ahead to WOTC Responce to my question later on this thread: WOTC Customer Support Responce (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1676362#post1676362) Undispellable Permanent Greater Magic Fang - Monks dream come true. Easy. Step one, find a level 20 druid and a level 30 wizard or Sorcerer or a fairly low level Red wizard with some followers. Get a druid to caste Greater Magic Fang +5, 600 GP and pay said Archane Caster to caste permancy, 8400 gold. 9000 Gold - +5 to all attacks - No Slot Can only be dispell by a Disjunction or an Epic Level Dispel. And frankly I would loose the 9000 gold spell against the Disjunction than risk an AMF +5. What, No red Wizards or Level 30 Casters in your world? Really? None? Wow... Than you can just take over the world no problem, and as the unchalanged despot you can have any magic items you want. -RL01
kreynolds 10-25-03, 07:13 AM	Originally posted by rules_lawer_01 Can only be dispell by a Disjunction or an Epic Level Dispel. Eh? How's that? :whatsthis
Kyuketsukiouji 10-25-03, 08:50 AM	Caster Level 30 spells can't be dispelled with the Dispel Magic suite (max roll 40 vs dc 41 even with Greater Dispel Magic). So nothing short of Disjunction will take it out, if you can somehow convince a 30th level caster to waste his time enchanting you with Greater Magic Fang. *refils kryenold's coffee cup*
mean_liar 10-25-03, 10:55 AM	Are you sure that the Dispel would target the Permanency and not Greater Magic Fang?
Kyuketsukiouji 10-25-03, 11:39 AM	Heh. Actually mean_liar's got that right too. The druid would have to be 30th level as well.
rules_lawer_01 10-25-03, 02:54 PM	Hmmm, if thats the case its even better. Then you only need a level 9 wizard and a level 30 druid. And, you dont even need to get the druid to caste the spell, you can just get him to make a 4500 gold potion.
kithicus 10-25-03, 03:14 PM	and of course this only works in 3.0 not 3.5
rules_lawer_01 10-25-03, 03:19 PM	This is completely 3.5. 100%
Vanigo 10-25-03, 05:45 PM	Uh, if there are 30th level casters, I don't think epic dispelling is going to be that rare. Also, I think there's a class ability or metamagic feat or something that doubles the caster level cap, allowing GDM to do the job.
kithicus 10-25-03, 06:13 PM	actually it doesn't work in 3.5 because u need greater magic weapon not fang.
rules_lawer_01 10-25-03, 07:06 PM	Originally posted by kithicus actually it doesn't work in 3.5 because u need greater magic weapon not fang. Um, have you actually bothered to read 3.5? It amazes me how often people can be blatantly wrong and I have to assume that it is just because they really don't bother to read the rules before they tell other people how the rules work. You know, one of those useless little steps that you take before telling people the inner workings of the game might be actually trying to understand the rules instead of expecting other people to believe you since they are also too lazy. Magic Fang, Greater Transmutation Level: Drd 3, Rgr 3 Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One living creature Duration: 1 hour/level This spell functions like magic fang, except that the enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls is +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). Alternatively, you may imbue all of the creature’s natural weapons with a +1 enhancement bonus (regardless of your caster level). Greater magic fang can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
rules_lawer_01 10-25-03, 07:15 PM	Originally posted by Vanigo Uh, if there are 30th level casters, I don't think epic dispelling is going to be that rare. Also, I think there's a class ability or metamagic feat or something that doubles the caster level cap, allowing GDM to do the job. Just because there is something doesn’t mean that there are tons of them around. Personally I like to think that high-level characters are like movie stars. They are not easy to meet, nor are you very likely to get them to play a part in your movie, but if you can befriend one or make it worth their time, then they are basically just like everyone else. So, you can’t just walk into town and say, hi I would like you to caste this spell on me, here is my money. But, for example, you did some service for a powerful mage or druid, I could see them repaying this service by allowing you to purchase their services. No for the other side of the coin, if you are high enough level that you are continuously encountering high-level casters in a combat scenario, then their ability to dispel you is not in question. More the question would be their desire to dispel you verses some other method of defeating you. Plus at these higher levels, an item like a +5 amulet of mighty fist is not expensive and something you could easily have. As for this special ability or feat, which one is that?
PhaedrusXY 10-25-03, 07:17 PM	You'd have to have this done for every attack you want to get the +5. That's two fists, a headbutt, two feat, two elbows, two knees...
Lago AM3P 10-25-03, 07:18 PM	Why even bother with that? Greater Magic Weapon is such a pittance to spellcasters of your level that the party wizard or cleric can easily extend-cast it and suffer only a tiny lack in versatility. It's one of the best things that happened to monks in this edition.
rules_lawer_01 10-25-03, 07:21 PM	Originally posted by PhaedrusXY You'd have to have this done for every attack you want to get the +5. That's two fists, a headbutt, two feat, two elbows, two knees... A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Note is says a natural weapon. The entire body is treated as one magic weapon. This has been confirmed by the Sage.
rules_lawer_01 10-25-03, 07:22 PM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P Why even bother with that? Greater Magic Weapon is such a pittance to spellcasters of your level that the party wizard or cleric can easily extend-cast it and suffer only a tiny lack in versatility. It's one of the best things that happened to monks in this edition. But it would not be at +5. If you have a level 20 caster in your group willing to caste this spell on you, great. But you could easily have these spells caste at you at levels much lower, when it would make much more of a diffrence
ManTimeForgot 10-25-03, 07:27 PM	And your character knows how to find a 30th level druid how? Could your character even find a 30th level druid given the knowledge of how its done? A 30th level druid could be the clouds above you, the soil beneath your feet, or the fly buzzing round your head and you wouldn't be any the wiser. Just how pray tell do you think you are going to get a 30th level druid to bother with you anyway? Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
PhaedrusXY 10-25-03, 07:34 PM	Originally posted by rules_lawer_01 A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Note is says a natural weapon. The entire body is treated as one magic weapon. This has been confirmed by the Sage. Where was this Sage ruling? I'd certainly be interested in that, as it definitely makes spells the superior way to get a bonus to monk unarmed strikes. I have an epic character that I'd like to use this on, if that is indeed the case. The cost on the Amulet of Mighty Fists is ridiculous...
rules_lawer_01 10-25-03, 07:35 PM	Originally posted by ManTimeForgot And your character knows how to find a 30th level druid how? Could your character even find a 30th level druid given the knowledge of how its done? A 30th level druid could be the clouds above you, the soil beneath your feet, or the fly buzzing round your head and you wouldn't be any the wiser. Just how pray tell do you think you are going to get a 30th level druid to bother with you anyway? Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot That would need to be acomplished by ROLE PLAYING. I have faith in you TMTF, I beleive you could do it. -RL01
ManTimeForgot 10-25-03, 07:39 PM	Thanks for the vote of confidence, but you still haven't explained just how exactly your monk is going to find a 30th level druid, let alone reach him. It would take an epic level balance check to walk on cloud, so how does your monk plan on getting to the druid's "cloud grove?" It would take, at the very least, some judicious uses of move earth to the attention of the druid that decides to live in the earth. And the druid that is wildshaped into a fly is going to be impossible to find barring true sight. And where pray tell is your monk going to get that going for him? I appreciate the sentiment (faith in me), but role playing isn't the problem here. It's roll playing. How can you mechanically possess enough power as a monk to find a 30th level druid? Assuming you could find the druid, what are you going to do to get the attention of someone who is more or less one with nature for 18 hours of the day? Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
PhaedrusXY 10-25-03, 07:44 PM	So get a freakin cleric to do it. Greater Magic Weapon can be used on monk's unarmed attacks also. And it would probably be easier to find the epic cleric. And anyway, my character won't have a problem finding one, because he adventures with one...
ManTimeForgot 10-25-03, 07:50 PM	Congratulations Phaedrus on having a monk who is so lucky as to be blessed with epic level cleric friends. It is therefore very reasonable for you to have a solid bonus for your monk. Stack it with amulet of mighty fist, and you will be a beast in combat. Now for those of us not so lucky as to be blessed with near god-like allies we are going to have to content ourselves with less than uber permanent benefits. And you are right: Finding an epic level cleric would be a whole heck of a lot easier than finding the druid. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
rules_lawer_01 10-25-03, 08:09 PM	Of course since you can't make GMW spell permanent, it is not very relavent to this post. As for your ability to get a high level druid to do some spell casting for you, again, you just have to roleplay the situation. All DM's will be diffrent. Keep in mind, at worst all you need is a potion made by such a druid. I would again like to state I am unsure by the rules of which spell needs to be level 30 or greater, but I am mostly convinced it would need to be persistance and not GMF, wich would only need to be caste by a level 20 druid, easy enough to find I am sure.
edsonaoki 10-25-03, 08:23 PM	I still think it´s easier to get an amulet of mighty fists +5. At least you have a chance of avoiding when someone casts Mage´s Disjunction on you.
rules_lawer_01 10-25-03, 08:25 PM	Originally posted by edsonaoki I still think it´s easier to get an amulet of mighty fists +5. At least you have a chance of avoiding when someone casts Mage´s Disjunction on you. Again its a mater of cost vs risk. Plus using an amulet consumes a slot. 9k for +5 is very desireable as an interum solution till you can affored a AoMF +5.
Mourn 10-26-03, 12:59 AM	Originally posted by rules_lawer_01 Undispellable Permanent Greater Magic Fang - Monks dream come true. Nothing is undispellable. Easy. Step one, find a level 20 druid and a level 30 wizard or Sorcerer or a fairly low level Red wizard with some followers. Get a druid to caste Greater Magic Fang +5, 600 GP and pay said Archane Caster to caste permancy, 8400 gold. Did you just say easy? How is finding a level 20 druid and a level 30 wizard easy? Do they just hang around in bars, waiting for opportunities like this? What, No red Wizards or Level 30 Casters in your world? Really? None? Wow... Than you can just take over the world no problem, and as the unchalanged despot you can have any magic items you want. If there are no level 30 casters in the world, then your initial argument is invalid, since it requires a level 30 caster.
rules_lawer_01 10-26-03, 01:10 AM	And like I said before, If there are NO level 30 wizards in your game world then you in no time can become the absolute rulers. Just gain a few level and you too can be a overlord. And then tiny matter like money and items will not be a problem. Call now, space is limited. Live Operators (ok.. they're undead, but they are sorta alive) are standing by.
Arkenian 10-26-03, 12:21 PM	Originally posted by rules_lawer_01 And like I said before, If there are NO level 30 wizards in your game world then you in no time can become the absolute rulers. Just gain a few level and you too can be a overlord. And then tiny matter like money and items will not be a problem. Call now, space is limited. Live Operators (ok.. they're undead, but they are sorta alive) are standing by. "In no time"??!! this is a minimum of about 3 years RL play to get to level 30, (that's figuring a level per month, with a few weeks off for holidays, family emergencies, RP sessions, and PC death) In my experience, levelling usually slows down slower than once per four sessions . . . That is, of course, up to the DM. As to level 30 NPCs, yes there are some in my campaigns. There are, however, a couple of problems: 1.) A decent portion of them happen to be evil. 2.) Very few of them have any terribly altruistic tendencies . . . and the PCs will not be paying enough money to get a level 30 NPC's attention. 3.) They may or may not have a problem sending people who irritate them cartwheeling across the planes. 4.) As has already been mentioned, the ones who aren't inclined to be nasty, tend to take some effort to prevent low level adventurers from bugging them. 5.) In the even that the PCs are actually sufficiently high level that finding and catching the attention of a level 30 NPC is not difficult the following applies: a.) You still have to convince the wizard to expend the XP (it isn't much so this isn't a problem) b.) I'm not necessarily terribly concerned by the power levels involved. It's nice, yes, but in the end, it's only a +5 bonus, which a disjunction eliminates with no problems. c.) I had always been under the impression that the caster level issue was resolved by the fact that permanency could only be cast upon your own spells. All of the above said, this is part of a larger problem at epic levels of the fact that there's no higher version of dispel magic than greater dispelling, other than disjunction. -Arkenian the Golden
Kyuketsukiouji 10-26-03, 12:36 PM	Both spells have to have a caster level of 30. If the Permanency doesn't, it'll get dispelled, and then Magic Fang's duration will run out. If Magic Fang doesn't, it'll get dispelled and Permanency won't have anything to make permanent and it'll fizzle. If neither does, they both go pop.
rules_lawer_01 10-26-03, 01:06 PM	You may be right, I am not sure I believe it. That you have to worry about both spells being dispelled seems to really reduce the usefulness of permanency. I mean what battle are you going to have that doesn't involve a few dispels? If you only need the druid to be level 30, then all you need is a potion of GMF at the 30th Level... if you can find one. If you only need the permanency at level 30 then you can find a red wizard with a few followers or a level 30 wizard / sorcerer. But keep in mind, for both of these that only their EFFECTIVE caster level needs to be 30. For example a druid would only need to be level 26 and have prayer beads.
Kyuketsukiouji 10-26-03, 01:17 PM	Get enough orange Ioun stones, and you've got it made, too. (Nothing says they don't stack, and it's an unnamed bonus, no?) Of course, your DM might want to grant cover bonuses to your oppenets after you get your 20th orange Ioun Stone out. ;)
Mr.Waesel 10-26-03, 04:51 PM	Permanency @ clvl 30 = 5*30*10*10(epic) = 15,000, plus XP costs and getting the character to bother with you.
rules_lawer_01 10-26-03, 06:18 PM	Well I just got the following reply from Customer Service. I will post my own views on this in another reply. From: Wizards Customer Service To: Address Ommited Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 12:10 PM Subject: RE: What spell makes the save on a dispel. You only need to dispel the GMF, not the permanency. So the check would be against the 20th level druid. **************************************** ******************* Steve Wizards of the Coast Customer Service Website: http://www.wizards.com Game Support E-Mail: custserv@wizards.com Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496 Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 6 PM PST Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500 Tech Support: (425) 687-2156 Please quote this e-mail in any reply. **AOL MEMBERS MUST COPY AND PASTE PREVIOUS E-MAIL CONTENT. AOL DOES NOT DO THIS AUTOMATICALLY** **************************************** ******************* -----Original Message----- From: Address Ommited Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 5:15 PM To: Wizards Customer Service Subject: What spell makes the save on a dispell. A level 20 druid castes GMF on you. A level 30 wizard then makes it Permanent. A level 25 wizard castes greater dispel on you, what spell makes the dispel check? GMF? Permanency? Both? Thank you, -RL01
rules_lawer_01 10-26-03, 06:50 PM	This means that you only need to have the druid spell be level 30+ to create a undispelable permanent Greater Magic Fang with a +5 bonus. GMF caste by level 30 Druid = 30 x 3 x 10 = 900 Gold. A potion of GMF created by a level 30 druid = 30 x 3 x 50 = 4500 gold. Note: It could also be caste by a level 26 Druid with prayer beads or some other level increasing effect on spells. Permanency caste by a level 11 arcane caster = 5 x 11 x 10 + 5 x 1500 = 550 + 7500 = 8050 So for 8950 gold you can have a spell that can only be dispelled by an Epic version of Dispel and then still has a chance of resisting. Of course a Disjunction will instantly kill it, but then disjunctions are nasty.
rules_lawer_01 10-26-03, 07:02 PM	Rereading this he says you only need to dispell.... gah, I am gona have to ask them again....
Mazarick 10-26-03, 07:46 PM	If I was the DM, and he had greater magic fang +5 permanently on there through such means...I'd make him have to make a check every time he used something to make sure he didn't damage/break it.
honeynuggets 10-27-03, 10:58 AM	1. The process seems sound. There is no reason why such a powerful druid and somewhat-powerful wizard shouldn't be ABLE to create such an effect on a monk. However, I have to agree with the person who posted earlier about finding a willing 30th level druid. You see, as someone gains levels their impact on the world increases. They become responsible for doing things whether it be protecting a forest or burning one down to appease their boss. At 30th level a druid is going to be working closely with their diety and they are both busy 24-7 working against some equally powerful enemy, against whom they will probably be more or less at a stalemate or equilibrium. So the rare 30th level druid is going to have global level concerns which take up all his time. In order to get him to take the time to meet with you it seems only fair that you should have to free up his time by doing something he was going to have to do. Then there is the matter of contacting him in the first place. I don't think this would be difficult AFTER doing his chore for him. You could use a divination to find out where he is then play goose chase since he will be zipping around busily. Once nearby you can just shout out and he will hear you in whatever form he is in and recognize that you did his chore for him. A diplomacy check to see if he feels like repaying you by stopping what he is doing (at the cost of perhaps a small victory against his foes since the net effect would be 0 - time gained = time lost) What would be an example of something a 30th level druid is doing that you could help him with? Well, they probably have to watch over vast expanses of forest domains for threats that are beyond the local druids and caused directly by his 30th level nemesis. Just keeping guard over such a vast expanse will take up a lot of his time since he would have to be moving quickly 24-7 perhaps in the shape of the wind. (making him very hard to find) Alternately, he can somehow magically "keep an ear open" to cries of help from forest creatures but that would take the same amount of time for constant spell preparations and I see the druid moving around in nature and not cooped up casting spells. Therefore, a balanced favor might be for the monk to invade a large (say 10 mile) territory of the druid's enemy along the forest's border. Thus, with the minions busy fighting you he won't have to patrol that area and can devote his time somewhere else. Carrying a banner to his diety would help ensure that he sees your motivation when he flys by occasionally. How long? A week seems fair. Encounter Level? Big. In order for you effort to help him out the territory would have to be the home of at least one tribe of evil minions (say 100 of them, enough to cause trouble). How can a monk take on 100 orcs or goblins? Well, you would probably have to hire some mercenaries. At least 20 and then show some genius level tactics negotiating terrain, keeping the tribe chasing you around, splitting them up and then guerrilla attacks. Once you keep them occupied for a week under the diety's banner I would say a 30th level druid would be amenable to meeting you. (you would still have to pay the gold). The cost therefore includes the mercenary fee which would be large once they learn they are outnumbered. I wouldn't make the orcs stupid either. They wouldn't stay close enough so that a fireball could blast a third of them. They would have bows AND a melee weapon. Wizard's are much easier since they coop up in towers. You can just bring the gold and paint a sign he can read from the window with the spell you want. After a few days of sitting outside you can roll a check to see if it's worth his time.