Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TravisOfTheCosmose 05-22-07, 12:57 AM	When you empower something that has both a variable effect AND a set number added to that, do you increase the sum by 50% or just the variable? For example, Awaken Undead, from Libris Mortis gives undead 4+1d6 intelligence. Say I rolled a 4. If it were empowered, would the target undead gain 10 Int or 12?
Nom 05-22-07, 01:06 AM	The PH gives magic missile as an example for good reason.
runestar 05-22-07, 02:03 AM	You multiply the final result by 1.5. Don't think of 4 as a fixed value and 1d6 as the variable. Think of the final result as a variable ranging from 5 to 10.:)
TravisOfTheCosmose 05-22-07, 10:21 AM	Ok, then. As a follow up, if a spell has a set number of...stuff...like targets/level, or like heal/harm, 10 points of damage/healing, can those effects be empowered? They are variables...just not in the typical sense, requiring a die roll and all.
Witch 05-22-07, 10:31 AM	They're not variables. The caster level is fixed, namely at whatever caster level you have.
runestar 05-22-07, 10:34 AM	Variable in dnd means there is a die roll involved somewhere. Heal has no such provision, so it is not affected by empower.:)
Selgard 05-22-07, 10:43 AM	yet another reason to hate the new "heal" spell. -mutters-
Mindolin 05-22-07, 10:51 AM	Don't worry, the Heal spell has never been affected by Empower spell. It's just been weakened from healing you completely to healing up to 150 damage. But the thing about the variables mentioned in Empower and Maximize spell is that they are all die rolls. Thus, something affecting 1d4 targets/level would be empowered to affect 1d4x1.5, while something affecting 1 target/level is not affected at all.
risner 05-22-07, 01:15 PM	Ok, then. As a follow up, if a spell has a set number of...stuff...like targets/level, or like heal/harm, 10 points of damage/healing, can those effects be empowered? They are variables...just not in the typical sense, requiring a die roll and all. They are not variables.
forsaken1111 05-22-07, 03:51 PM	Greater Harm, however, has a variable of 1d12/caster level and COULD therefore be empowered.
Novacat 05-23-07, 02:48 AM	Greater Harm, however, has a variable of 1d12/caster level and COULD therefore be empowered. Where's Greater Harm from? Normal Harm, on average, should do a lot more damage than what you're describing.
Witch 05-23-07, 02:55 AM	Where's Greater Harm from? Normal Harm, on average, should do a lot more damage than what you're describing. Heroes of Horror. It's a ranged spell, which doesn't require a touch attack, iirc.
ArcTan 05-23-07, 02:57 AM	It's a spell from HoH for Dread Necromancers, and oddly -- and poorly -- designed. If harm did a d10 of damage as opposed to a flat 10 points of damage per caster level it'd make sense, but the way greater harm is written, it basically makes regular harm look like Maximized harm for free, which makes greater harm kind of bogus. This is probably why the spell wasn't reprinted in Spell Compendium (and therefore doesn't exist, or exists less officially than the spells that were approved for SC).
forsaken1111 05-23-07, 08:37 AM	I'm fairly (80%) sure it was a typo, but either way my point was it COULD be maximized or empowered.
Empirate 05-25-07, 06:38 AM	If you cast Wall of Fire or Hypnotism or any other spell where the dice part of the effect is less than the fixed (CL dependent) part of the effect, Empower Spell really shines. But I have a question on this: Do you think Empower multiplies by 1.5 first or last? E. g., if somebody had a way of boosting their caster level (bead of karma or something), would this boost be affected by the x1.5 or not? I guess it would, just want to make sure. Also, if there are several unrelated variable numeric effects in the spell, like with Color Spray (variable number of targets affected, who are, depending on HD, blinded or unconscious for variable amounts of time), does Empower Spell apply to all of them?
cwslyclgh 05-25-07, 10:29 AM	This is probably why the spell wasn't reprinted in Spell Compendium (and therefore doesn't exist, or exists less officially than the spells that were approved for SC). this is a misleading statement. Not all books where condisered for inclussion in the spell compendium, and that fact does not in any way impinge officiality on the spells in those books. Heroes of Horror came out a scant 2 months before the Spell Compendium, they probably did not have included the new spells from it in the spell compendium due to time constraints (I know that some spells that are in the HoH did make it into the SC, but all of those that did had previously appeared in other books as well). Being included in the spell compendium has nothing to do with whether a spell "exists" or even if it is a viable spell.
NobodyRemembersThis 05-25-07, 11:19 AM	If you cast Wall of Fire or Hypnotism or any other spell where the dice part of the effect is less than the fixed (CL dependent) part of the effect, Empower Spell really shines. But I have a question on this: Do you think Empower multiplies by 1.5 first or last? E. g., if somebody had a way of boosting their caster level (bead of karma or something), would this boost be affected by the x1.5 or not? I guess it would, just want to make sure. Also, if there are several unrelated variable numeric effects in the spell, like with Color Spray (variable number of targets affected, who are, depending on HD, blinded or unconscious for variable amounts of time), does Empower Spell apply to all of them? If a spelll or effect boosts, caster level, this would happen before damage is calculated with empower. Let's take Fireball, as a level 5 caster with a feat and a spell granting +1 caster level for the spell. The formula would be: [damage per caster level*(Caster level + feat caster level bonus + magic item caster level bonus)]*1.5 = total damage [1d6*(5+1+1)]*1.5 = total damage (1d6*7)*1.5 = total damage 7d6*1.5 = 10.5 to 63 points of damage (36.75 average damage) Not too shabby for a 5th level caster using metamagic rod, now is it :)
Deth 05-25-07, 01:14 PM	You multiply the final result by 1.5. Don't think of 4 as a fixed value and 1d6 as the variable. Think of the final result as a variable ranging from 5 to 10.:) No that is not correct it is only the variable, numeric effects. From the SRD " All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level. " So you do not multiply +x by the 1.5
CantripN 05-25-07, 01:36 PM	No that is not correct it is only the variable, numeric effects. From the SRD " All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level. " So you do not multiply +x by the 1.5 I really hate this question... Read the example for Empower Spell in the PHB. See the example? It's Magic Missile. See how it's empowered? (1d4+1)*1.5, not 1d4*1.5+1. The variable result is 2-5, and that is what's empowered.
NobodyRemembersThis 05-25-07, 01:42 PM	Think I explained it right CantripN?
CantripN 05-25-07, 01:47 PM	Think I explained it right CantripN? As usual, you are correct, sir. :tiphat:
NobodyRemembersThis 05-25-07, 01:52 PM	V.^_^.V Good to know. :D
farfairer 05-25-07, 04:09 PM	Also, if there are several unrelated variable numeric effects in the spell, like with Color Spray (variable number of targets affected, who are, depending on HD, blinded or unconscious for variable amounts of time), does Empower Spell apply to all of them? OK, the Hit Dice portion of Color Spray is not considered a variable, and therefore not effected by Empower Spell. However, if you were to Empower a Color Spray the variable durrations: 2d4 rounds of unconsious, blinded and stunned + 1d4 rounds of additional blinded and stunned (2HD) 1d4 rounds of blinded and stunned (3-4HD) would be empowered. EX: If you Empower a Color Spray and effect four 2HD creatures they would be Unconsious, Blinded and Stunned for 2d4*1.5 rounds, then Blinded and Stunned for 1d4*1.5 rounds then Stunned for 1 round. Color Spray works slightly differently because the effects are not calculated together like other spells. Empower still increases the variable effects though. As usual, you are correct, sir. Seconded
Empirate 05-31-07, 08:26 AM	Thanks a lot. Very useful thread (if you have Empower, that is...)!
jaelis 05-31-07, 08:33 AM	For example, Awaken Undead, from Libris Mortis gives undead 4+1d6 intelligence. Say I rolled a 4. If it were empowered, would the target undead gain 10 Int or 12? Would empower actually apply to this particular roll? It doesn't quite sound like a direct effect of the spell... I would have said the direct effect of the spell is to awaken the creature. As part of that, it gains an intelligence score, but that is kind of secondary.
forsaken1111 05-31-07, 11:04 AM	Would empower actually apply to this particular roll? It doesn't quite sound like a direct effect of the spell... I would have said the direct effect of the spell is to awaken the creature. As part of that, it gains an intelligence score, but that is kind of secondary. Its a variable numeric effect of the spell, isn't it? The spell doesn't put an awakened template on them. The direct effect of the spell is to give them intelligence, etc etc.
tarkin 05-31-07, 12:47 PM	Forsaken you are incorrect. The stats of Awaken are all considered secondary, not primary. They are not empowerable, nor maximizable. Same for stats for Simulacrum etc. The spell is called Awaken, and that is what it does. It awakens the creatures. It does NOT boost or enhance stats at all. As a side effect of becoming awakened, you need mental stats, which it tells you how to calculate them. Thus, it is a secondary effect. To be primary it would have had to say 'This spell also grants you an int' or 'grants a bonus to int of...', or something similar. Furthermore, stats/hitpoints of summoned/created creatures are never counted as variables. P.S. Ruling as you did can lead to some blatant abuses.
forsaken1111 05-31-07, 12:49 PM	Forsaken you are incorrect. The stats of Awaken are all considered secondary. Anything else leads to some blatant abuses. I disagree, but I'm willing to concede to avoid an argument since I honestly don't care one way or another.
ArcTan 05-31-07, 06:45 PM	Forsaken you are incorrect. The stats of Awaken are all considered secondary, not primary. They are not empowerable, nor maximizable. Same for stats for Simulacrum etc. There's no such thing as a "primary stat" or "secondary stat" for a spell, and I'm automatically suspicious of rulings that are based on categorizations that would be very important if they did exist (like "primary stat") that aren't referenced in the rules at all. The easiest way to curb "abuse" is to simply rule the spell the obvious way. It Empowers dice that the spell tells you to roll. Simulacrum doesn't have you roll any dice. Therefore simulacrum is unaffected by Empower. Given that the *definition* of Awakening a creature is boosting its mental ability scores, I don't think your statement there holds any water.
MikeyP 06-01-07, 03:43 PM	I really hate this question... Read the example for Empower Spell in the PHB. See the example? It's Magic Missile. See how it's empowered? (1d4+1)*1.5, not 1d4*1.5+1. The variable result is 2-5, and that is what's empowered. I see what you're saying here, but then I need to ask... How does this relate to a Warmage Edge? If an empowered Magic Missile does (1d4+1)*1.5, does an empowered Magic Missile from a Warmage (with a 14 INT) do (1d4+3)*1.5?
forsaken1111 06-01-07, 04:00 PM	I see what you're saying here, but then I need to ask... How does this relate to a Warmage Edge? If an empowered Magic Missile does (1d4+1)*1.5, does an empowered Magic Missile from a Warmage (with a 14 INT) do (1d4+3)*1.5? I believe warmaster's edge is tacked on as extra damage after calculations but I'm unsure.
Valthonis 06-01-07, 04:26 PM	I see what you're saying here, but then I need to ask... How does this relate to a Warmage Edge? If an empowered Magic Missile does (1d4+1)*1.5, does an empowered Magic Missile from a Warmage (with a 14 INT) do (1d4+3)*1.5? Warmage Edge doesn't trigger with magic items (excluding staves) so I'd say the extra damage is added after empowering the spell. I'm not sure on this fact and this is a feat instead of magic items, but that's the way I'd rule it if it came up at the table.
Pentar 06-01-07, 04:38 PM	Warmage edge does not apply because the bonus comes from a source external to the spell's variable values. Metamagic feats such as Empower and Maximize work only on the variable values as explicitly stated in the spell. Outside variances and bonuses (or penalties) need not apply.
NobodyRemembersThis 06-02-07, 03:07 PM	I see what you're saying here, but then I need to ask... How does this relate to a Warmage Edge? If an empowered Magic Missile does (1d4+1)*1.5, does an empowered Magic Missile from a Warmage (with a 14 INT) do (1d4+3)*1.5?Warmage is as follows: {[damage per caster level*(Caster level + feat caster level bonus + magic item caster level bonus)]*1.5} + warmage edge = total damage