5ft step + Potion = Always escape? [Archive] - Wizards Community

5ft step + Potion = Always escape? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AlamoMelt
06-16-07, 03:05 AM I hope this is the correct forum for this question, and here goes: I've been trying to figure out a way to counter the "take a 5 foot step, pull out a potion of (gaseous form, invisibility, fly, etc.), drink it, escape." How can a party counter this?

As far as I can tell, even if a fighter is threatening the bad guy, BBEG just takes a 5 foot step, is no longer threatened, pulls out out and drinks the potion, gets away with the party helpless to prevent it. What action could the fighter ready to counter this? Why would the fighter counter this way rather than swing? Am I missing something?

Thanks.
Xeviat-DM
06-16-07, 03:17 AM The only thing to do would be for the warrior engaged with the BBEG to ready to five foot step, then attack, if the BBEG tries this sort of maneuver. Or to use a reach weapon.

Also, most of those spells have a counter. If they don't, they at least can be dispelled; potions are notorious for being easy to dispel. A flying BBEG can be followed; an invisible one can be pinpointed through numerous means; a gasious form one is still subject to certain effects (and a good "gust of wind" could be bad).

Either way, this is a very smart thing for the BBEG to do.
arjomanes
06-16-07, 03:17 AM Well invisibility wont let the BBEG get away bc everyone knows what square he's in still. So they can target the square, or cast glitterdust, throw flour, etc.

Gaseous form is tricky bc your speed is only 10' so it's harder to get away.

Fly still allows an attack of opportunity when he leaves the square. Also, he used a move action to pull out the potion and a move action to drink it, so he'll have to move next round.

PC's should have some ways to combat these spells. PCs can fly, they have ways to see invisible creatures, and they can use wind or force spells to affect a gaseous creature.

But sure, if the BBEG has these potions as a backup plan, he should use them to try to escape. That's a recurring plot device anyways in so many movies and books, so it makes sense it would be an available option. Sometimes the bad guy gets away in the end, but it isn't guaranteed.
Gnarl
06-16-07, 04:26 AM Here are a few options:
1) Buy a scroll of Arcane Turmoil (2nd level) or Dispel Magic
2) Flanking. With a 5-ft step, at least one of you guys will be in position to sunder the potion.
3) Reach. If the fighter has enlarge cast on him, a 5-ft. step is not enough to get out of sunder range.
True Cavalier
06-16-07, 04:56 AM Flanking is a good idea, but you can't sunder a potion, only weapons or shields; try disarm instead.

On another note, invisibility is so overused in most games by both heroes and villains, that it pays to always carry items that can detect it, or prepare such spells.
lantan_gnome
06-16-07, 05:00 AM step 1: use grapple and or trip him he cant take 5 foot steps then.

stpe 2:then aoo sunder/grab his potion

step3:

step4: profit
Ezurus
06-16-07, 05:51 AM Nevermind... It seems I was a bit confused :confused: :confused:
JoeX
06-16-07, 06:16 AM So, it would be impossible to take a 5 foot step, retrieve a potion, and drink the potion in a single round.

Wrong

5 foot step = FREE ACTION (if that it's the only movement you take in the round)
retrieve a potion = MOVE ACTION
drink the potion = MOVE ACTION

you can do it in 1 round.

You have to wait the next round to actualy start getting away from the party.
Ezurus
06-16-07, 06:37 AM Wrong

5 foot step = FREE ACTION (if that it's the only movement you take in the round)
retrieve a potion = MOVE ACTION
drink the potion = MOVE ACTION

you can do it in 1 round.

You have to wait the next round to actualy start getting away from the party.

Whoa. I was under the impression that it was only free as part of a full round action, but upon further analysis I was completely mistaken. I'll edit in a comment on my other post.
cato
06-16-07, 07:22 AM quick draw works on potions ? ^^
Nom
06-16-07, 07:33 AM drink the potion = MOVE ACTION STANDARD ACTIONBut it's still quite doable.

If the spell you use to get away isn't a teleport of some description, you're still very much in trouble. invisibility is pretty easy to counter. gaseous form is slow movement (only fly 10) and you're still quite vulnerable to magic. fly provides no protection against ranged attacks, dispel magic, or your pursuers using fly too.

Teleporting is much more effective, though it needs to worry about dimensional anchor. Divinations can also be used to chase you down, assuming your foes can also teleport.
primemover003
06-16-07, 07:44 AM You gotta also remember the enemy can't MOVE anywhere if he takes a 5 foot step. He's in the square he drank the potion in until his next turn.

And like Nom pointed out drinking a potion is a STANDARD action that provokes. Pulling the potion is a Move action unless you're smart enough to equip the villain with a Potion belt (FRCS), then it's a free action to pull.
ShinAkuma2
06-16-07, 07:46 AM Flanking is a good idea, but you can't sunder a potion, only weapons or shields; try disarm instead.

Says who? You can sunder anything your opponent holds.

In fact, the description for a potion outright states that the AoO provoked for drinking a potion can be directed at the enemy or the potion itself.

What's more, if you successfully damage the drinker, he has to make a concentration check or his action is wasted.
Merestil Haye
06-16-07, 07:50 AM Flanking is a good idea, but you can't sunder a potion, only weapons or shields; try disarm instead.

On another note, invisibility is so overused in most games by both heroes and villains, that it pays to always carry items that can detect it, or prepare such spells.You can use the Sunder action to attack items other than a weapon or shield.Sundering a Carried or Worn Object

You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.Thus it's quite permissible to attack the potion (assuming that you can reach it of course). The AC is 18 plus the user's Dex mod.
risner
06-16-07, 08:49 AM "take a 5 foot step, pull out a potion of (gaseous form, invisibility, fly, etc.), drink it, escape." How can a party counter this?

I think you mean:
Take 5 foot step, go gaseous form/invisibile/etc.
Party attacks them in the square they know the target is located since they took a 5 foot step last round and must be in this square.
If it lives through a full attack from all the party fighters who took a 5 foot step to kill it, then yes on it's next turn it can fly away/withdrawl/etc so long as it is not threatened by more than one part member. Otherwise it is dead.

Flanking is a good idea, but you can't sunder a potion, only weapons or shields; try disarm instead.

Lots of others pointed this out, but you can in fact sunder the potion.
Dispater24
06-16-07, 10:17 AM If the BBEG uses Haste, then he could fly away because he has an action left, right?
Skeeve
06-16-07, 10:21 AM If the BBEG uses Haste, then he could fly away because he has an action left, right?

Well, except that Haste doesn't work like that anymore.
strenoth
06-16-07, 12:10 PM and even if it did, he still couldn't do it, because he's already taken a 5' step that round.
risner
06-16-07, 12:51 PM If the BBEG uses Haste, then he could fly away because he has an action left, right?

No
Derren S.
06-16-07, 03:05 PM Strenoth is right. If you use the 3.0 Haste which grants an extra action it would still not work because if the BBEG uses the extra action to fly he is not allowed to make a free 5 ft. step.
Fiddlypoppin
06-16-07, 03:23 PM Step back, pull out the potion, and drink the potion are a full round's worth of actions. The PCs still have a full round of activity themselves until the enemy can actually do anything to escape.

If it's a potion of invisibility, cast invisibility purge, or just attack the square they stepped into--you know they won't have moved out yet.
If it's a movement enhancing potion, such as a potion of fly, grapple the enemy, kill them (if they're trying to get away because they're low on hp), or hinder their movement somehow, such as with hold person.
If it's any other potion, scroll, wand, or magic item at all, then they're not getting away right now, so the PCs should have enough time to keep them there.

Unless you have some way to step back, pull out the potion, drink the potion, AND run away in the same round, it's not a guaranteed escape at all.
Ezurus
06-16-07, 04:26 PM If a spellcaster has the Halt (Immediate Action, SC) spell prepared, he can use it to stop the BBEG in his tracks before he leaves his square.
ElIsRa
06-16-07, 05:13 PM I hope this is the correct forum for this question, and here goes: I've been trying to figure out a way to counter the "take a 5 foot step, pull out a potion of (gaseous form, invisibility, fly, etc.), drink it, escape." How can a party counter this?

As far as I can tell, even if a fighter is threatening the bad guy, BBEG just takes a 5 foot step, is no longer threatened, pulls out out and drinks the potion, gets away with the party helpless to prevent it. What action could the fighter ready to counter this? Why would the fighter counter this way rather than swing? Am I missing something?

Thanks.

Well, there are plenty of things a fighter can do.
The first I can think of is flanking. If you can get people on opposite sides of an enemy then said enemy can not 5ft step away and be safe, regardless of where he goes.
Second is using a spiked chain or similar means of gaining reach. Reach does something very similar to that of the flanking, in that it prevents a 5ft to safety.
Third, you can bulrush the BBeG to a wall, to prevent him from being able to 5ft step away.
Fourth, putting a magical barrier in the way of the BBeG such as a Flaming Sphere, a Wall of Fire, or similar effect to prevent and/or cause damage to the fleeing BBeG.

On a side note, casting teleport (via scroll, staff, ring, or what ever) would probably be the best bet to allow a BBeG to escape.
Psikerlord
06-16-07, 07:58 PM Dispel magic. any PC party without this is asking for trouble.
Pentar
06-16-07, 08:13 PM Flanking is a good idea, but you can't sunder a potion, only weapons or shields; try disarm instead.

Hmm, I'm fairly certain you can sunder a potion. In fact, I think it is one of the options they clearly spell out for you in the DMG about drinking a potion while threatened. Ahh here it is.

Drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. A successful attack (including grappling attacks) against the character forces a Concentration check (as for casting a spell). If the character fails this check, she cannot drink the potion. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container.

Emphasis mine.
Anguirus23
06-17-07, 12:37 AM Also, if 5-foot steps in general are a problem, there is a 5th level Setting Sun maneuver that lets you take a 5-foot step into a square an enemy has just left as an immediate action. If you like that sort of thing. I do. :D
Alvoros Darkleaf
06-17-07, 12:57 PM Remember, a creature in gaseous form only gains DR 10/Magic and LOSES any natural, armor/shield bonuses, and it is not immune to anthing except poison and criticals etc. You can still kick the crap out of it unless it escapes through an opening a character cannot get to.

The 10 movement can be quite a problem if you do not use it near an escape hole.

I've seen more than 1 or 2 gaseous creatures fireballed and power attacked to death.

Alvo
Sildatorak
06-17-07, 01:59 PM Remember, a creature in gaseous form only gains DR 10/Magic and LOSES any natural, armor/shield bonuses, and it is not immune to anthing except poison and criticals etc. You can still kick the crap out of it unless it escapes through an opening a character cannot get to.

The 10 movement can be quite a problem if you do not use it near an escape hole.

I've seen more than 1 or 2 gaseous creatures fireballed and power attacked to death.

Alvo
I'm glad someone pointed out that gasseous form is a horrible NPC spell. It is great for PC's who need to escape because many of their foes don't have the spells or magic weapons needed to injure them. By the time that PC's are facing people with access to level 3 spells, though, the combat classes should have +1 weapons and the casters should have at least some offensive spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AlamoMelt 06-16-07, 03:05 AM	I hope this is the correct forum for this question, and here goes: I've been trying to figure out a way to counter the "take a 5 foot step, pull out a potion of (gaseous form, invisibility, fly, etc.), drink it, escape." How can a party counter this? As far as I can tell, even if a fighter is threatening the bad guy, BBEG just takes a 5 foot step, is no longer threatened, pulls out out and drinks the potion, gets away with the party helpless to prevent it. What action could the fighter ready to counter this? Why would the fighter counter this way rather than swing? Am I missing something? Thanks.
Xeviat-DM 06-16-07, 03:17 AM	The only thing to do would be for the warrior engaged with the BBEG to ready to five foot step, then attack, if the BBEG tries this sort of maneuver. Or to use a reach weapon. Also, most of those spells have a counter. If they don't, they at least can be dispelled; potions are notorious for being easy to dispel. A flying BBEG can be followed; an invisible one can be pinpointed through numerous means; a gasious form one is still subject to certain effects (and a good "gust of wind" could be bad). Either way, this is a very smart thing for the BBEG to do.
arjomanes 06-16-07, 03:17 AM	Well invisibility wont let the BBEG get away bc everyone knows what square he's in still. So they can target the square, or cast glitterdust, throw flour, etc. Gaseous form is tricky bc your speed is only 10' so it's harder to get away. Fly still allows an attack of opportunity when he leaves the square. Also, he used a move action to pull out the potion and a move action to drink it, so he'll have to move next round. PC's should have some ways to combat these spells. PCs can fly, they have ways to see invisible creatures, and they can use wind or force spells to affect a gaseous creature. But sure, if the BBEG has these potions as a backup plan, he should use them to try to escape. That's a recurring plot device anyways in so many movies and books, so it makes sense it would be an available option. Sometimes the bad guy gets away in the end, but it isn't guaranteed.
Gnarl 06-16-07, 04:26 AM	Here are a few options: 1) Buy a scroll of Arcane Turmoil (2nd level) or Dispel Magic 2) Flanking. With a 5-ft step, at least one of you guys will be in position to sunder the potion. 3) Reach. If the fighter has enlarge cast on him, a 5-ft. step is not enough to get out of sunder range.
True Cavalier 06-16-07, 04:56 AM	Flanking is a good idea, but you can't sunder a potion, only weapons or shields; try disarm instead. On another note, invisibility is so overused in most games by both heroes and villains, that it pays to always carry items that can detect it, or prepare such spells.
lantan_gnome 06-16-07, 05:00 AM	step 1: use grapple and or trip him he cant take 5 foot steps then. stpe 2:then aoo sunder/grab his potion step3: step4: profit
Ezurus 06-16-07, 05:51 AM	Nevermind... It seems I was a bit confused :confused: :confused:
JoeX 06-16-07, 06:16 AM	So, it would be impossible to take a 5 foot step, retrieve a potion, and drink the potion in a single round. Wrong 5 foot step = FREE ACTION (if that it's the only movement you take in the round) retrieve a potion = MOVE ACTION drink the potion = MOVE ACTION you can do it in 1 round. You have to wait the next round to actualy start getting away from the party.
Ezurus 06-16-07, 06:37 AM	Wrong 5 foot step = FREE ACTION (if that it's the only movement you take in the round) retrieve a potion = MOVE ACTION drink the potion = MOVE ACTION you can do it in 1 round. You have to wait the next round to actualy start getting away from the party. Whoa. I was under the impression that it was only free as part of a full round action, but upon further analysis I was completely mistaken. I'll edit in a comment on my other post.
cato 06-16-07, 07:22 AM	quick draw works on potions ? ^^
Nom 06-16-07, 07:33 AM	drink the potion = MOVE ACTION STANDARD ACTIONBut it's still quite doable. If the spell you use to get away isn't a teleport of some description, you're still very much in trouble. invisibility is pretty easy to counter. gaseous form is slow movement (only fly 10) and you're still quite vulnerable to magic. fly provides no protection against ranged attacks, dispel magic, or your pursuers using fly too. Teleporting is much more effective, though it needs to worry about dimensional anchor. Divinations can also be used to chase you down, assuming your foes can also teleport.
primemover003 06-16-07, 07:44 AM	You gotta also remember the enemy can't MOVE anywhere if he takes a 5 foot step. He's in the square he drank the potion in until his next turn. And like Nom pointed out drinking a potion is a STANDARD action that provokes. Pulling the potion is a Move action unless you're smart enough to equip the villain with a Potion belt (FRCS), then it's a free action to pull.
ShinAkuma2 06-16-07, 07:46 AM	Flanking is a good idea, but you can't sunder a potion, only weapons or shields; try disarm instead. Says who? You can sunder anything your opponent holds. In fact, the description for a potion outright states that the AoO provoked for drinking a potion can be directed at the enemy or the potion itself. What's more, if you successfully damage the drinker, he has to make a concentration check or his action is wasted.
Merestil Haye 06-16-07, 07:50 AM	Flanking is a good idea, but you can't sunder a potion, only weapons or shields; try disarm instead. On another note, invisibility is so overused in most games by both heroes and villains, that it pays to always carry items that can detect it, or prepare such spells.You can use the Sunder action to attack items other than a weapon or shield.Sundering a Carried or Worn Object You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.Thus it's quite permissible to attack the potion (assuming that you can reach it of course). The AC is 18 plus the user's Dex mod.
risner 06-16-07, 08:49 AM	"take a 5 foot step, pull out a potion of (gaseous form, invisibility, fly, etc.), drink it, escape." How can a party counter this? I think you mean: Take 5 foot step, go gaseous form/invisibile/etc. Party attacks them in the square they know the target is located since they took a 5 foot step last round and must be in this square. If it lives through a full attack from all the party fighters who took a 5 foot step to kill it, then yes on it's next turn it can fly away/withdrawl/etc so long as it is not threatened by more than one part member. Otherwise it is dead. Flanking is a good idea, but you can't sunder a potion, only weapons or shields; try disarm instead. Lots of others pointed this out, but you can in fact sunder the potion.
Dispater24 06-16-07, 10:17 AM	If the BBEG uses Haste, then he could fly away because he has an action left, right?
Skeeve 06-16-07, 10:21 AM	If the BBEG uses Haste, then he could fly away because he has an action left, right? Well, except that Haste doesn't work like that anymore.
strenoth 06-16-07, 12:10 PM	and even if it did, he still couldn't do it, because he's already taken a 5' step that round.
risner 06-16-07, 12:51 PM	If the BBEG uses Haste, then he could fly away because he has an action left, right? No
Derren S. 06-16-07, 03:05 PM	Strenoth is right. If you use the 3.0 Haste which grants an extra action it would still not work because if the BBEG uses the extra action to fly he is not allowed to make a free 5 ft. step.
Fiddlypoppin 06-16-07, 03:23 PM	Step back, pull out the potion, and drink the potion are a full round's worth of actions. The PCs still have a full round of activity themselves until the enemy can actually do anything to escape. If it's a potion of invisibility, cast invisibility purge, or just attack the square they stepped into--you know they won't have moved out yet. If it's a movement enhancing potion, such as a potion of fly, grapple the enemy, kill them (if they're trying to get away because they're low on hp), or hinder their movement somehow, such as with hold person. If it's any other potion, scroll, wand, or magic item at all, then they're not getting away right now, so the PCs should have enough time to keep them there. Unless you have some way to step back, pull out the potion, drink the potion, AND run away in the same round, it's not a guaranteed escape at all.
Ezurus 06-16-07, 04:26 PM	If a spellcaster has the Halt (Immediate Action, SC) spell prepared, he can use it to stop the BBEG in his tracks before he leaves his square.
ElIsRa 06-16-07, 05:13 PM	I hope this is the correct forum for this question, and here goes: I've been trying to figure out a way to counter the "take a 5 foot step, pull out a potion of (gaseous form, invisibility, fly, etc.), drink it, escape." How can a party counter this? As far as I can tell, even if a fighter is threatening the bad guy, BBEG just takes a 5 foot step, is no longer threatened, pulls out out and drinks the potion, gets away with the party helpless to prevent it. What action could the fighter ready to counter this? Why would the fighter counter this way rather than swing? Am I missing something? Thanks. Well, there are plenty of things a fighter can do. The first I can think of is flanking. If you can get people on opposite sides of an enemy then said enemy can not 5ft step away and be safe, regardless of where he goes. Second is using a spiked chain or similar means of gaining reach. Reach does something very similar to that of the flanking, in that it prevents a 5ft to safety. Third, you can bulrush the BBeG to a wall, to prevent him from being able to 5ft step away. Fourth, putting a magical barrier in the way of the BBeG such as a Flaming Sphere, a Wall of Fire, or similar effect to prevent and/or cause damage to the fleeing BBeG. On a side note, casting teleport (via scroll, staff, ring, or what ever) would probably be the best bet to allow a BBeG to escape.
Psikerlord 06-16-07, 07:58 PM	Dispel magic. any PC party without this is asking for trouble.
Pentar 06-16-07, 08:13 PM	Flanking is a good idea, but you can't sunder a potion, only weapons or shields; try disarm instead. Hmm, I'm fairly certain you can sunder a potion. In fact, I think it is one of the options they clearly spell out for you in the DMG about drinking a potion while threatened. Ahh here it is. Drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. A successful attack (including grappling attacks) against the character forces a Concentration check (as for casting a spell). If the character fails this check, she cannot drink the potion. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container. Emphasis mine.
Anguirus23 06-17-07, 12:37 AM	Also, if 5-foot steps in general are a problem, there is a 5th level Setting Sun maneuver that lets you take a 5-foot step into a square an enemy has just left as an immediate action. If you like that sort of thing. I do. :D
Alvoros Darkleaf 06-17-07, 12:57 PM	Remember, a creature in gaseous form only gains DR 10/Magic and LOSES any natural, armor/shield bonuses, and it is not immune to anthing except poison and criticals etc. You can still kick the crap out of it unless it escapes through an opening a character cannot get to. The 10 movement can be quite a problem if you do not use it near an escape hole. I've seen more than 1 or 2 gaseous creatures fireballed and power attacked to death. Alvo
Sildatorak 06-17-07, 01:59 PM	Remember, a creature in gaseous form only gains DR 10/Magic and LOSES any natural, armor/shield bonuses, and it is not immune to anthing except poison and criticals etc. You can still kick the crap out of it unless it escapes through an opening a character cannot get to. The 10 movement can be quite a problem if you do not use it near an escape hole. I've seen more than 1 or 2 gaseous creatures fireballed and power attacked to death. Alvo I'm glad someone pointed out that gasseous form is a horrible NPC spell. It is great for PC's who need to escape because many of their foes don't have the spells or magic weapons needed to injure them. By the time that PC's are facing people with access to level 3 spells, though, the combat classes should have +1 weapons and the casters should have at least some offensive spells.