6 uses per day? [Archive] - Wizards Community

6 uses per day? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ascian
03-10-04, 05:24 PM I'm sure many here are familiar with the formula for an item to have multiple uses per day. As per the DMG, one calculates as if the item were a continuous or use-activated version, then applies the following formula:

:teach:
Unlimited use cost / (5 / uses per day) = True Cost.

Thus if I wanted to make a Ring of Invisibility, costing 20,000, cheaper by reducing it to two uses per day, I'd do the following:

20,000 / (5 / 2 = 2.5) = 8000

If it's reduced to five uses per day, then there's no change, since 5 / 5 = 1.

But what if I want an item with six uses per day? Ring of Invisibility again:

20,000 / (5 / 6 = 0.83) = 24,096

So in reducing it from unlimited use to six charges per day, I have actually *increased* the item's price. :looloo:

Has anybody else come up against this foible of the magic item costs table? Any suggestions as to how to deal with it? Any explanation that can justify it as something other than the biggest number-spill since Y2K? Your input is appreciated.
olshanski_home
03-10-04, 05:55 PM Anything that is activated 5 or more times a day costs the same as unlimited uses... it is just a less useful version of the same thing.

It is easier to enchant magic that works unlimited than it does to make things that work 6, 8, or 15 times per day.
Ascian
03-10-04, 07:23 PM That's what I was thinking. Thanks for confirming.
Arbitrary Aardvark
03-11-04, 09:40 AM Originally posted by olshanski_home
Anything that is activated 5 or more times a day costs the same as unlimited uses... it is just a less useful version of the same thing.

It is easier to enchant magic that works unlimited than it does to make things that work 6, 8, or 15 times per day.

And, in general, six or more times per day is effectively the same as unlimited. For a spell that persists (for example bull's strenght), thats six combats, which is probably more than a character would ever see in a single day (since each one should use up 20% of the parties resources on the average.) For attack spells, thats more (or close to the same number) that a spellcaster gets per day. About the only time there might be a difference is on short duration or instantaneous spells where there might be an occasion to use it a lot. (Cure disease during a plague, create water during a drought.)
TheGogmagog
03-11-04, 09:51 AM I considered placing a restriction on the unlimited use items to 5 or 10 uses a day. It would rarely come up, but then decided to stck with the RAW to avoid an argument. This is definitly how I would handle any spells whose benifits stack with themselves.
Dartanel
03-11-04, 12:55 PM The only real point to having 5+ use/day items is for instantaneous spells, which it is recommended (by other DMs if not by the book) to never, ever be unlimted use/day.
IceFractal
03-11-04, 04:48 PM The only real point to having 5+ use/day items is for instantaneous spells, which it is recommended (by other DMs if not by the book) to never, ever be unlimted use/day.

I guess you'd call a decanter of endless water broken then, as it is basically Create Water an unlimited number of times per day. ;)

But in general yes, 5/day is for things that would be broken if they were unlimited, like a ring of CLW: 5/day would be fine, unlimited would be basically granting Fast Healing 1d8+1. By that rule, 6 or more/day would make sense for items like that.
Loren Pechtel
03-11-04, 10:59 PM Originally posted by IceFractal
I guess you'd call a decanter of endless water broken then, as it is basically Create Water an unlimited number of times per day. ;)

But in general yes, 5/day is for things that would be broken if they were unlimited, like a ring of CLW: 5/day would be fine, unlimited would be basically granting Fast Healing 1d8+1. By that rule, 6 or more/day would make sense for items like that.

Yeah, that's how I see it--instants are by default always x/day, not unlimited. Most 0-levels are ok as unlimited (the only one that comes to mind as a problem is cure minor wounds), a few others are ok because they are limited by the environment.
Dartanel
03-12-04, 12:46 AM Originally posted by IceFractal
I guess you'd call a decanter of endless water broken then, as it is basically Create Water an unlimited number of times per day. ;)

Considering that I would never pass up a decanter of endless water for any of my PCs... probably yeah.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ascian 03-10-04, 05:24 PM	I'm sure many here are familiar with the formula for an item to have multiple uses per day. As per the DMG, one calculates as if the item were a continuous or use-activated version, then applies the following formula: :teach: Unlimited use cost / (5 / uses per day) = True Cost. Thus if I wanted to make a Ring of Invisibility, costing 20,000, cheaper by reducing it to two uses per day, I'd do the following: 20,000 / (5 / 2 = 2.5) = 8000 If it's reduced to five uses per day, then there's no change, since 5 / 5 = 1. But what if I want an item with six uses per day? Ring of Invisibility again: 20,000 / (5 / 6 = 0.83) = 24,096 So in reducing it from unlimited use to six charges per day, I have actually increased the item's price. :looloo: Has anybody else come up against this foible of the magic item costs table? Any suggestions as to how to deal with it? Any explanation that can justify it as something other than the biggest number-spill since Y2K? Your input is appreciated.
olshanski_home 03-10-04, 05:55 PM	Anything that is activated 5 or more times a day costs the same as unlimited uses... it is just a less useful version of the same thing. It is easier to enchant magic that works unlimited than it does to make things that work 6, 8, or 15 times per day.
Ascian 03-10-04, 07:23 PM	That's what I was thinking. Thanks for confirming.
Arbitrary Aardvark 03-11-04, 09:40 AM	Originally posted by olshanski_home Anything that is activated 5 or more times a day costs the same as unlimited uses... it is just a less useful version of the same thing. It is easier to enchant magic that works unlimited than it does to make things that work 6, 8, or 15 times per day. And, in general, six or more times per day is effectively the same as unlimited. For a spell that persists (for example bull's strenght), thats six combats, which is probably more than a character would ever see in a single day (since each one should use up 20% of the parties resources on the average.) For attack spells, thats more (or close to the same number) that a spellcaster gets per day. About the only time there might be a difference is on short duration or instantaneous spells where there might be an occasion to use it a lot. (Cure disease during a plague, create water during a drought.)
TheGogmagog 03-11-04, 09:51 AM	I considered placing a restriction on the unlimited use items to 5 or 10 uses a day. It would rarely come up, but then decided to stck with the RAW to avoid an argument. This is definitly how I would handle any spells whose benifits stack with themselves.
Dartanel 03-11-04, 12:55 PM	The only real point to having 5+ use/day items is for instantaneous spells, which it is recommended (by other DMs if not by the book) to never, ever be unlimted use/day.
IceFractal 03-11-04, 04:48 PM	The only real point to having 5+ use/day items is for instantaneous spells, which it is recommended (by other DMs if not by the book) to never, ever be unlimted use/day. I guess you'd call a decanter of endless water broken then, as it is basically Create Water an unlimited number of times per day. ;) But in general yes, 5/day is for things that would be broken if they were unlimited, like a ring of CLW: 5/day would be fine, unlimited would be basically granting Fast Healing 1d8+1. By that rule, 6 or more/day would make sense for items like that.
Loren Pechtel 03-11-04, 10:59 PM	Originally posted by IceFractal I guess you'd call a decanter of endless water broken then, as it is basically Create Water an unlimited number of times per day. ;) But in general yes, 5/day is for things that would be broken if they were unlimited, like a ring of CLW: 5/day would be fine, unlimited would be basically granting Fast Healing 1d8+1. By that rule, 6 or more/day would make sense for items like that. Yeah, that's how I see it--instants are by default always x/day, not unlimited. Most 0-levels are ok as unlimited (the only one that comes to mind as a problem is cure minor wounds), a few others are ok because they are limited by the environment.
Dartanel 03-12-04, 12:46 AM	Originally posted by IceFractal I guess you'd call a decanter of endless water broken then, as it is basically Create Water an unlimited number of times per day. ;) Considering that I would never pass up a decanter of endless water for any of my PCs... probably yeah.