Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arminel 01-15-08, 08:06 PM	Trying to have some variety in spells, and I'm taking Spell Focus: Conjuration, Sudden Widen, and Sculpt Spell to make the most of the spells chosen. 1st Color Spray, Grease, Lesser Orb of Sound, Protection from Evil 2nd Web, Glitterdust 3rd Ice Lance Any suggestions? Lesser Orb of Sound is to have a damage spell that won't be nailed by energy resistance and having something that'll get around SR at the cost of making a ranged touch seems like a good choice. One of my first level spells could be dropped for Benign Transposition, probably Color Spray at this level. Wall of Smoke from the SC also seems like an excellent choice.
nightwyrm 01-15-08, 08:29 PM	Some comments on the feats first, you're a sorc, sudden metamagics are useless for you. Also, widen is terrible, especially when you're taking sculpt spell. Take empower instead. The spell list looks ok, although you might want to take haste as your third level spell instead.
Wind of Darkness 01-15-08, 09:26 PM	Second haste as your 3rd level spell; it's an amazing spell. Ice lance really isn't very good, all told. Yeah, there's no reason to spam haste, but you can use your 3rd level slots for metamagic, too. I wouldn't recommend taking it now, but you'll want to grab dispel magic at some point, too.
Someone 01-16-08, 01:30 AM	I was under the impression that the sudden metas were useful to a sorc because they didn't affect casting times... Anyway, I would suggest dispel magic or fly, just for the utility of those spells. Given your feats, I would also recommend stinking cloud- you could use sculpt spell to keep your friends from puking, and its a conjuration spell with a save, so spell focus applies. It might even be a spread, so it could be widened.
nightwyrm 01-16-08, 01:40 AM	I was under the impression that the sudden metas were useful to a sorc because they didn't affect casting times... But sudden metas are only once (or was it 3x) per day. Sorcs have much better options. There are alternative class features that allows meta without increase casting time. But even if you have to increase the casting time, a normal meta is still better due to the daily limits on suddens. He can't sculpt a stinking cloud yet, but it's still a pretty good spell option, although he already does have quite a few battlefield controls already. It would really depend on what his other party members are playing to determine the best spells at this point.
narack 01-16-08, 08:17 AM	Ray of Exhaustion is really good when you have a good fighter party against a big monster. Shrink Item, i don't know how many time it help my players and even myself. Deep Slumber is nice Sleep spell, something like putting 10-12HD into sleep. Water breating is good but can easily gained from item effect, else there is Haste but there also, boots of haste are pretty good price for 6th level characters 12,000 gp each pair. good investment for the extra action of attack it gives. 10 round charges.
CantripN 01-16-08, 09:01 AM	I'd suggest trading that Sudden feat for Greater Spell Focus, with your spell list, or take Spell Focus (Evocation/Transmutation) and aim for Archmage later on. For your 3rd level spell, take Haste (because that's something you alone can do). For 2nd level, add Frost Breath, perhaps, instead of Web. Drop Color Spray for Benign Transposition.
solbergb 01-16-08, 06:14 PM	Trying to have some variety in spells, and I'm taking Spell Focus: Conjuration, Sudden Widen, and Sculpt Spell to make the most of the spells chosen. 1st Color Spray, Grease, Lesser Orb of Sound, Protection from Evil 2nd Web, Glitterdust 3rd Ice Lance What is your ranged touch roll? I suspect you will find that not having to roll to hit at this level is superior to defeating SR but having to roll dice. I think magic missile is the stronger pick for your direct damage spell, especially as spell focus conjuration doesn't do much to lesser orbs. If you are typical your ranged touch attack is only about +5 or +6 by now. That will miss anybody in cover or in melee or prone half the time, one with two of those conditions most of the time and with all 3 of those conditions all the time. The transition to ray spells and orbs from magic missile is a few levels in the future, where it fades in power, SR is more common and your attack mods and improved mobility allow better placement of shots. Magic missile is also medium range. Short range is often too close if you are resorting to direct damage. Color spray is a bit redundant with glitterdust at this point. You probably don't want to be that close to enemies and you have a DC advantage with glitterdust lacking with color spray. I would recommend some other kind of spell in this slot (see below) I suspect you will get more out of boring old fireball than you do out of ice lance too. Same reflex mechanic, much larger area (and sculptable and widenable for future), huge range advantage, both SR=yes. The only advantage of ice lance is slightly more damage on the first target, and maybe additional targets if the first fails save. I would recommend taking as your one party buff (prot evil) something that the divine caster can't do. Enlarge person is a popular choice, and gives you something to do after you've debuffed your enemies with grease, glitterdust and web or something to do before a fight. From a spell breakdown, here's what you're looking at. There are some notable gaps. single target damage: medeocre. Better against more targets with magic missile but neither is a powerhouse. This is a "mop up" spell. area damage: good at very short ranges, nonexistant beyond those. I recommend fireball, especially as you have web and clearing it quickly while adding 2d4 damage to anyone in it is handy at times. It's also a good pick going forward, at L8 the ability to sculpt or widen it can add significantly to its impact especially in open area fighting. battlefield control: excellent (sculpted grease and web/sculpted web with decent DC). You will want something better eventually, especially against fliers but at level 6 it's quite strong. When you get something better, swap out web. It loses its punch later on. debuff: excellent (glitterdust with sculpted DC+secondary web/grease effects). color spray is redundant arcane buffing: not very good (prot evil - redundant with divine casters). Prot evil and color spray could be swapped for better arcane-only options mobility: none. (mount, haste, fly, levitate and feather fall are the typical ones that might be on a L6 caster. At L8, dim door enters the picture. With splatbooks, benign transposition would be a fantastic alternative to color spray, for example divinations: none (barring cantrips - detect magic is likely all you've got) utility: none (barring cantrips) Self defense: none, aside from the impact of your battlefield control and debuff spells. you can't have everything at level 6, but you should at least be picking cantrips to help with some "nones" (eg, message or open/close for utility) and scrolls or wands to cover some other bases. In the areas you have chosen, sculpted (and possibly widened) grease and glitterdust are excellent choices but your other choices risk being redundant or just not as effective as you'd like versus most opponents compared to the boring PHB staples. As a side note guys...to take sculpt spell he has to take some other metamagic. Widen is something you usually only really want to do 1/day, and it is in fact sometimes useful to have 40' radius sculpted grease or glitterdust (or 8 shapeable cubes, or a 80' cone, etc) It's not a fantastic choice on all sorcerers but it is actually a fairly good pick for this one, especially if he goes with an area direct damage spell other than ice lance that has a sculptable area for his first or second L3 spell pick. If I was playing the character the OP describes, with those feats this would likely be my spell setup assuming just PHB and Spell Compendium to work with and trying for a similar "mix" of spells cantrips: prestidigitation, read magic, detect magic, message, open-close, dancing lights, launch item L1: grease, magic missile, benign transposition, enlarge person L2: glitterdust, Web L3: fireball Very solid on battlefield control, debuffs, area damage, has some cheap "mop up" direct damage, enlarge person will help your party members hit enemies trapped in your grease/webs (have your melees carry reach weapons) and benign transposition is offense (swap BDF or rogue into full attack), defense (swap yourself or injured guy away) and movement (swap two individuals at medium range - especially handy if your familiar is mobile, like a hawk or bat so there is always a transposition buddy somewhere useful) While recognizably the same character, his list is now like this: single target damage: medeocre but reliable area damage: fireball is as good as it gets at level 6 and web adds a bit more sometimes. battlefield control: excellent (grease, web, enlarge person+sculpting) debuff: excellent- (glitterdust+sculpt. Grease and web also have secondary debuff effects) arcane buffing: fair - enlarge person is almost always handy for a party mobility: fair - benign transposition isn't haste, but it's flexible and useful divinations: poor (cantrips) utility: fair (enlarge person and benign transposition+flying familiar cover a lot of ground+cantrips) Self defense: fair - battlefield control+transposition. Weakness is no passive defenses (AC/hitpoint/save boosters)
Arminel 01-16-08, 06:39 PM	Thanks for the advice everyone, especially solbergb with his indepth analysis. My DM is allowing me to take Spontaneous Metamagic, but since he has a soft spot for Sorcerers it will be (3+Cha) times per day instead of (3+Int). @_@ In any case, with the exception of our Druid/MoMF, I'm the only caster. I know Sorcerer might seem like a bad pick, but with some field control and Spontaneous Metamagic, I think I'll fare pretty well. cantrips: prestidigitation, read magic, detect magic, message, open-close, dancing lights, launch item L1: grease, magic missile, benign transposition, enlarge person L2: glitterdust, Web L3: fireball Magic Missile you are right about, perhaps I'll switch it for an Orb later. Benign over Color Spray is good, but fireball I'm tempted to say no to. I've already got something for the high AC (Magic Missile), low Reflex (Web), low Will (Glitterdust). Ice Lance, in addition to being a ranged attack with a +4 on the attack and 6d6 damage, offers a Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds and is Conjuration, giving me the DC boost. Considering the other party members (Monk, MoMF, Barb/Rogue/Fighter, Rogue), Haste could also be a very good option. Then again, it could be better as a scroll, though they run at about 375gp a pop in what is looking like a low-wealth game with no item creation feats allowed. Sudden Widen was taken over other options because I didn't see myself getting a lot of use out of the normal metamagic feats at this point, not to mention the 3-level adj for free once a day, especially with large area spells like a sculpted glitterdust or web. My DM might allow me to take a flaw, in which I might just go for Iron Will and prestige into Incantrix next level. The last feat I really wanted to take was Cloudy Conjuration which will help my personal defenses.
VulcanStormwrath 01-16-08, 06:57 PM	Invisibility, Fly for 3rd Regroup for 2nd Zip around the battle feild teleporting the party to key spots and flanking positions. And since it's not an attack spell it won't drop your Invisibility. You become the battlefield Commander but no one knows you're there until it's too late.
Arminel 01-16-08, 09:08 PM	Regroup, assuming this is the PHBII spell I'm thinking about, has too small of a range to be effective in my opinion. At my level, I've got a range of... 40ft? Invisibility is an excellent spell for many different reasons, but since caster level isn't as much of a big deal (at minute/level), I see it being a good choice for having a scroll on hand with, or a wand with 5-10 charges.
VulcanStormwrath 01-16-08, 10:39 PM	Regroup, assuming this is the PHBII spell I'm thinking about, has too small of a range to be effective in my opinion. At my level, I've got a range of... 40ft? Invisibility is an excellent spell for many different reasons, but since caster level isn't as much of a big deal (at minute/level), I see it being a good choice for having a scroll on hand with, or a wand with 5-10 charges. You could use Benign Transposition instead. Get into flamking position, switch with the rogue, fly up to a caster into melee range and switch with the raging Barb.
JamesMaissen 01-16-08, 10:47 PM	2nd Web, Glitterdust I'm curious why web and glitterdust? Web seems a reasonable choice for a scroll spell. The failed save is normally not needed. Are you imagining being able to cast it a significant amount? It just seems like there are a lot of other choices out there. -James
tyrecian 01-16-08, 11:18 PM	1st Color Spray, Grease, Lesser Orb of Sound, Protection from Evil 2nd Web, Glitterdust 3rd Ice Lance For first level, i would lose lesser orb of sound. The damage never really screams out to be effective compared to other spells, and it also requires you to hit something. Instead use non-magical tanglefoot bags for a touch attack that will ensure your party's melee damage can get into range. Color spray also tends to be less effective at your level and beyond than many other spells, it is great at 1-5th lvls, but not so at your levels. there are a variety of spells that would be better for a sorc, just given that you can really open up with your choice. Ray of enfeeblement (also a touch attack) is a great debuff that improves noticabely as you level. Silent Image is a nice battlefield control spell (can be a number of walls for cover and to have creatures avoid you or terrain you need protected), they only get a save when they interact :D. There is also Exped Retreat, to give you some mobility, which is helpful since you are forsaking mage armor and shield for personal protections. Enlarge person can be very helpful for a tank around 6-12th levels, especially if they are themed for battlefield control. Obscuring Mist is also a very very helpful first level spell for BC and allows a sorc to make a very good retreat point (20% conceal at edges, 50% inside the cloud). Your second levels are nice, but at 6th level, you might want to think about giving up web for something that doesnt allow for easily getting out of and also doesnt have such a nasty requisite that there be walls around. Glitterdust is nice for revelation, but bags of flour could be just as good, and see invisibility, or even invisibility for yoruself might be a better choice. Scorching ray is a nice damage spell (although i can see you not wanting to use that cause of SR later on). Fog Cloud is a nice BC spell in conj. For third level i would not choose ice lance, neither haste, as some have mentioned. I usually choose Dispel Magic myself, but have also found Slow to be a great spell for 3rd level. It can affect multiples, and it essentially takes combatants out of combat. For conjuration sleet storm, stinking cloud, and MS3 are all nice spells. Still Slow for the money, can affect 1creature/level and take away their actions. If you need one spell to spam, and its not going to be Fireball, then slow makes grade, as it can make or break a fight that would normally totally wipe the party's resources. 1 action a round means no 5' steps, no move and attack, no full attack actions... It really makes a nice defensive/offensive spell. :D Especially for a sorcerer who can cast it anytime Trying to have some variety in spells, and I'm taking Spell Focus: Conjuration, Sudden Widen, and Sculpt Spell to make the most of the spells chosen. Sadly sorcs dont get much variety, tis the nature of the beast. Also unless you are going Therm later on, why take SF:Conj? It adds to DCs, but conj. is notably one of the least DC heavy schools... Might want to rethink that... Unless you are thinking augment summonning for bigger mosnters from your MS's later on :) which i think is endlessly fun... Also you need a full round to apply sculpt spell, and really dont need it that much, insofar as metamagics go, sorcs really get the bad end. Not to mention that Widen and Sculpt are very specific abilities that will rarely enter into use. They are more for war wizards who know they will be on battlefields, like a general's aid, or specialist that has a very specific task (much like a warmage class structured NPC). The sudden metas are once per day, and can be a real drag. Plus it seems that sculpt might be more of a nuisance because with your spell list you will grease or web around party members, but they will be unable to move into those areas, such tact can hamper your melee rather than freeing them to move about the enemy slaughterring foes. Depends on how you envision your PC, but you can use your conjurations within their parameters with a little ingenuity and save a crucial feat slot for something much better. Then again, Solbergb makes some good points with grease and your metas. I would still think about taking leadership at 6th level though, since you already (arguably) have special powers (casting spells) and will have a decent charisma since you are a sorc. Adding a lvl 4 PC/Friend to help you along can also take away some of the worries that you are encounterring with your lack of defense (i.e. a lvl 4 buffer priest; SoFaith, bear's endurance, Shield Other, etc.). Using the SC there are also some real nice spells that a priest could bring in. Also you can't go wrong with a druid, who could bring along an animal companion, as well as buffing you. Might not have the healing punch that a cleric does, but the vigor line is nice for a PC who doesnt get into fights alot, and a pet could make your BC much more effective as well as helping out your fighter/rogue in combat. It can also act as a nice meatshield for something coming at YOU... Also, if you arent married to your metamagics, think about taking craft wonderous item, its available at 3rd, and it can make a world of difference in what you can afford in terms of what you can create at 50% rather than buy at full price. A savvy caster with a bit of downtime will win a mirror match every time. Being able to make your own items gives you an impressive edge, and can enable you to make a bit of money in the process (15% profit isnt too much to ask party members since they are getting a 50% discount already :)) Scribe scroll isnt the worst idea either, take Craft WItem and SS, with leadership and voila, completely not what you wanted :P sorry, just my 2cp :D at any rate, good luck with your PC, tell us how it turns out!
Arminel 01-16-08, 11:50 PM	Well, at this point, my spell list will likely look like this: cantrips: prestidigitation, read magic, detect magic, message, open-close, dancing lights, launch item L1: grease, magic missile, benign transposition, enlarge person L2: glitterdust, baleful transposition L3: fireball Other L2 idea: Cloud of Bewilderment Other L3 idea: Acid Breath Tyre, some good suggestions. Maybe I should update my first post though. First off, leadership and item creation feats are banned. Also, I'm using the Spontaneous Metamagic ACF but my DM ruled (3+Cha) instead of (3+Int) for times per day. My DM is contemplating dropping the "other metamagic feat" requirement for Sculpt Spell. If so, I might try replacing Sudden Widen with Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration and taking Acid Breath from the SC, giving me a few sculpted Ld6 conjuration spells per day that get my Spell Focus bonus and something to hit low Reflex people with.
Wellspring 01-17-08, 10:07 AM	I agree with Haste. For immediate gratification, Fireball is a cliche spell for a reason. Eventually, Orb of force is good for generic DD in the long run. The feat Rapid Metamagic allows you to use metamagic without the casting time problem.
Merestil Haye 01-17-08, 12:02 PM	If you may have difficulty with evasive creatures, I recommend Sound Lance (aka I Hate Rogues). Targeted (thus no attack roll) and Fort save (thus no Evasion). Might be a good pick for later levels, rather than 6th. It's in the Spell Compendium. Since you can use metamagic without slowing down some number of times per day, then MM feats are worthwhile, but I would not take Sudden Widen. Instead take Empower Spell. Useful on all sorts of stuff, starting with Ray of Enfeeblement. At your level that's (1d6+3)*1½ or a Strength penalty of 6 to 12 points. Rapid Metamagic has prereqs that can't be met at 6th level, or I'd suggest dropping the alternative class ability and taking the feat instead, simply because there is no daily use limit.
JamesMaissen 01-18-08, 04:37 AM	I would not take Sudden Widen There's a lot of hate for this feat, but I think that you can put it to good use. Empower definitely will be useful to you.. for false life spells, ray of enfeeblements, etc. -James
Pitiless_Interfector 01-19-08, 07:52 PM	What items will you have? Is the game starting at 6th level? And unless you're going to specialize in fire magic, you should take scintillating sphere in preference to fireball. Identical range, components, saves, and casting time, but with a damage type that is much less frequently resisted. Just don't go up against any demons. And if you don't mind dirty looks from your DM, the ray of stupidity spell offers great potential. It's like dire-animal-B-gone; a successful touch attack (the highest touch AC for a dire animal in the MM is 15 for the CR 2 dire bat, the average is around 11) instantly knocks it out, by dealing 1d4+1 (i.e., minimum of 2) Intelligence damage, with no save. This isn't just for animals, either. Anything with a low touch AC, no SR, and an Int of 5 or less is fair game for this mini-finger of death. But tell us more about how your game is being run so we can provide better advice.