Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darkwin6 05-22-04, 10:38 PM	and as a standard action. How? Book of Vile Darkness Dancing Chains spell 7 (or more later) 5ft long chains Broken?
Sancus 05-22-04, 11:03 PM	with a wizard's normal ranged attack bonus, and no str bonus to damage? Not that impressive, really, for a 4th level spell. Max 14d4 damage per round assuming each attack hits, which isn't too likely with a wizard's BAB.. more like 5d4 or 7d4 at best. It's a good spell, but definitely not broken.
Moonstonedragon 05-23-04, 02:50 AM	Yeap, one of them sounds way nicer then it is spells, unless of course the players cheat rollin hehe
Bloodtide_the_Red 05-23-04, 03:03 AM	Wow, a 7th level caster can control seven chains within spell range and have them make ranged attacks every round. Note that first of all that's control chains, this spell does not make or create chains in any way..you have to cast the spell on some chains. Then there is the ranged attack. A 7th levelish Wiz/Sor without a Archer-type bulid will have a ranged attack of +5 or so. Well, good luck hitting anything.....let along getting a grapple on anything tough. The chains are not very moble, going a whole 40 feet from or 7th level caster....bad guys can simply back up. The chains can be attacked and hacked apart or blasted with area attack spells.(note they only move as the caster wishes, on his turn during his standard action. They don't fling around wildly, as the description does not say they do. So they are nice and easy to hit.). The Sor/Wiz can't cast any other spells while controling the chains and has to concentrate on doing so. Not to say the spell is not useful, or that you can't fill in some of theas gaps(Cat's Grace would help for example, as would quickened spells to set off while concentrating)...but it's not a broken spell. BT
Darkwin6 05-23-04, 10:07 AM	Yes it may need some work to be broken. Some sort of fighter/wizard with high dex maybe. And don't forget that it's a chain per caster level, not just 7. At 20th level there's 20 chains. and then you start applying poison to them :) It may not be very broken normally, but it does give the wizard ALOT more attacks and reach. And sure you might not be able to grapple a Brown Bear, but someone who's not much of a grappler will probably be clapped in chains. Four of the chains grapple and the other 3 tear him apart. :) The chains can be attacked and hacked apart or blasted with area attack spells.(note they only move as the caster wishes, on his turn during his standard action. They don't fling around wildly, as the description does not say they do. So they are nice and easy to hit.). You mean to say that even if I use the standard action to animate them each turn, they all lie limply on the ground when it's not my turn? They obviously can be used for grappling and this would make them kinda useless for that. Destroying them is gonna be pretty useless since what's left is probably still gonna count as a chain and can be lenghtened 15ft :)
Bloodtide_the_Red 05-23-04, 01:23 PM	........Yes it may need some work to be broken. Anything that takes work to be broken, is not broken at all. The 'work' of using items, skills, class features, magic and such is all part of the game. There is nothing wrong about buliding a character around this spell, same way it's not wrong to do it for anything else. Just remember the cost. You could take point black shot for example that will help you hit..but it costs a feat slot. ....but it does give the wizard ALOT more attacks and reach This is true of all the summoning spells too, that basicaly do the same thing. Your 7th level wizard could get 2-5 medium feindish scorpions, each with three attacks(so that's 6 to 15 attacks)..that 'range' out from the caster. ..........You mean to say that even if I use the standard action to animate them each turn, they all lie limply on the ground when it's not my turn? They obviously can be used for grappling and this would make them kinda useless for that. The important note is the spell description says the caster must control and move the chains as a standard action, note that you are not Animating the chains. So yes if you don't control a chain it just lays there. The are not uless for grapple, because you can comand them to grapple. You don't control the chain until it grabs someone and then let it go from control thinking it will just hold the creature. Every round you must control the chain and give it the grapple command. ..................Destroying them is gonna be pretty useless since what's left is probably still gonna count as a chain and can be lenghtened 15ft Depends. Area attacks, nice spells like Shatter and such will destroy the whole chain. Also the spell does not let you control every chain in an area for the duration. You cast the spell on the chains you want to move, you can't change chains after you have cast the spell. So the 'new' broken chain would count as a diffrent chain. BT
Darkwin6 05-23-04, 02:14 PM	Alrighty then. Maybe it's not broken. The are not uless for grapple, because you can comand them to grapple. You don't control the chain until it grabs someone and then let it go from control thinking it will just hold the creature. Every round you must control the chain and give it the grapple command. So... On my turn I command the chains to grapple. They get the intended victim and maintain the grapple. My turn ends. Do the chains fall limply to the floor? It's gonna be the victims turn next and is he still grappled? Is it possible to hold someone for several rounds of concentration with this spell? (remember the move equivalent action can be used to move a flaming sphere or something.)
Sancus 05-23-04, 04:33 PM	Carrying around 20 poisoned chains and then somehow getting them out of whatever you're carrying them in without wasting a full round action or two would be a real nuisance :P
Veneficus 05-23-04, 08:20 PM	Originally posted by Sancus Carrying around 20 poisoned chains and then somehow getting them out of whatever you're carrying them in without wasting a full round action or two would be a real nuisance :P I would get around that with either of two techniques... 1. Talk every member of the party into carrying two 5-ft. lengths of chain, one looped over each shoulder. When they go into combat, they drop the chains as they draw their own weapons. - - or - - 2. Animate Dead: Make a couple of skeleton servants that continuously remain within 5 ft. of you, each skeleton has several lengths of chain draped over its body. Better yet, before animating the skeleton, bolt several lengths of chain to its ribs, shoulders, arms, and even head. Then your skeleton servant would be similar to a Kyton, with you controlling the chains.
Loren Pechtel 05-24-04, 12:18 AM	Some more ways to carry chains: Tenser's floating disk. Thread the chains onto a rope. When the strongman drops the rope the chains are all there for animation. Pick them up in order and they'll peel off the rope fine. If you don't think they will, drop one end of the rope and then move far enough that the rope pulls free. If the rope is short that's not much of a move.
Gandilas 05-24-04, 12:32 AM	Hello. Uh, just BoH them. When you want to cast the spell, open the BoH, cast and then "animate" them out of the bag.
Bloodtide_the_Red 05-24-04, 09:23 PM	So...On my turn I command the chains to grapple. They get the intended victim and maintain the grapple. My turn ends. Do the chains fall limply to the floor? No, not at all. Remember we are talking about six seconds. So on your action you command the chian to grapple...that command last until your action in the next round. It's only if you don't concentrate would the chains fall to the floor. It's gonna be the victims turn next and is he still grappled? Yes, he would still be grappled. Note on your action you can command the grappling chain to take lots of actions(as per page 156 of the PH). On their turn they are 'free' to act while grappled, just like any other normal grapple. Is it possible to hold someone for several rounds of concentration with this spell? Yes. BT
Darkwin6 05-25-04, 04:45 PM	Thx for the answers and ideas guys. PS. I have a cape/cloak made out of mostly chains now. Had it made last session. Not sure if it's gonna work when I get closer to 20 chains though.
Veneficus 05-26-04, 06:05 AM	Originally posted by Darkwin6 I have a cape/cloak made out of mostly chains now. Had it made last session. Not sure if it's gonna work when I get closer to 20 chains though. Either that is one extremely heavy cloak, or your chains will suffer major damage penalties.
Darkwin6 05-26-04, 10:34 AM	5 ft of chain - 1 lb. 7 chains - 7 lb. No problem.
Bloodtide_the_Red 05-26-04, 11:19 PM	Remember this spell transforms chains in to spiked chains....but does not realy say what a 'chain' is as defined by the spell. So you could have 20 small foot long chains, for example. At 4th level it's just a level under Fabricate after all....and look what that spell can do. BT