8 fireballs in 2 rounds? [Archive] - Wizards Community

8 fireballs in 2 rounds? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wizard of Newfoundland
10-23-06, 02:31 PM in a camp i'm playing i'm a 4th level beguiler/1st level Evocer ( my DM let me switch the preqs to spontanious 2nd level spells and prepare 1st level spells) planning to take Ultimate Magus (CM). If I calculated this right by 11th level i could cast 8 firballs in 2 rounds using the Augmented casting special ability

Round 1: Quicken,Twin,Repeat a fireball from wiz slot = 2 fireballs
Twin Repeat another fireball = 2 fireballs

Round 2: Repeat spell comes into play bringing in 4 fireballs under the same casting conditions

If i made a mistake please point it out
Seerow
10-23-06, 02:38 PM The only mistake you made was chosing to go into blasting as a specialty.
elondir
10-23-06, 02:41 PM In what way is blasting a mistake? Sure save or die is the fad of the day, but 8 fireballs in two rounds, especially 8 energy substituted (sonic) fireballs, sounds pretty impressive to me.
Seerow
10-23-06, 02:44 PM Energy Substituted may be reasonable.

8 normal fireballs at level 11 is just asking for any enemy with Fire Resist30. ("Lol you waste 8 spellslots and two feats... I take 10 damage")
Limousine_Liberal
10-23-06, 03:02 PM I thought they eliminated Energy Substitution (sonic) when they rewrote the feat for Complete Arcane (unless you are an archmage).
LiamDeclan
10-23-06, 03:09 PM I thought they eliminated Energy Substitution (sonic) when they rewrote the feat for Complete Arcane (unless you are an archmage).

Yes they did.
BW0222
10-23-06, 03:29 PM wizard of Newfoundland,

Lets get serious about what an APL 11 group would be facing.

First, a 10hd fireball does 35hp of damage on average. Add the relax save (DC 20 vs. +10 average reflex save) and folks take maybe 26hp on average. Your average APL 11+ monster likely has 125+ hit points.

Second, many creatures have fire resistance by APL 12. Demons, devils, elementals, etc. spells which provide it, magical items, etc. Rogues or monks, etc. with evasion. Against many that might do nothing, or next to nothing. Spell resistance, etc. Average damage is likely in the 15hp range when you add all this together.

Third, you need to win initative. If you don't you likely won't be around long enough at APL 11 to actually get to cast. Creature will have closed, be threatening, grappling, casting spells at you, etc.

Forth, you need them in fireball formation. 20' radius isn't that big -- especially at APL 11 where large and huge creatures are common. Hallways, outdoors, large rooms, etc. you might not be able to get more than one or two creatures. There are few opportunities in 3.x to fireball folks.

Fifth, in general, D&D encounters rarely rely on large numbers of heavily reduced APL creatures. If you are at APL 11, it is more likely you will run into 3 CR 9 creatures than 15 CR 5 creatures waiting to be fireballed.

Sixth, after the first round, you are toast. A wizard with three slightly burned hill giant barbarians next to him isn't going to be around on the next round. Either will direct attacks, grapples, or just a few readying actions... the wizard is highly unlikely to get another spell off.

Seven, the process takes two rounds. They are almost certain to close, scatter, or take cover, heal, etc. based on being blasted for the first round.

Eight, it is a major expenditure of resources.

I randomly opened the SRD to K-L. Appropriate combat encounters for an APL 11 party might consists of...

* Kraken... 290hp. Water. (CR 12)

* Golden Golden Protector (Celestial Half-Dragon Lammasu) 125hp, SR 15 (CR 13)

* Leonal... 114hp, SR 28 (CR 12)

* Hill giant, wereboar ... 185hp (CR 11)

None of which would likely be killed in the first round. All of which would likely turn the wizard to a smear by the end of their initative. Many of these encounters would barely be affected.
Thiez
10-23-06, 03:50 PM BW0222, why do you assume that the wizard will get killed if he fires a few fireballs, and somehow he doesn't get killed when he does something else, like normal level 11 spellcasting? If fireball is as weak as you would make us believe, why would the creatures bother to attack the wizard when there are much more dangerous enemies nearby, such as the wizard's familiar?

Sure, wizards are unlikely to live through a Full Attack at level 11, but I don't think the kind of spellcasting you do has any influence on that (Unless you buff yourself).
CantripN
10-23-06, 05:07 PM You've made an Error(s?)...
You can only apply the Ultimate Magus' metamagic capacity to spells with no other Metamgic already attached and you can only add one Meta to a spell...
texanhick20
10-23-06, 05:48 PM Level 13 wizard, Sudden Quickened Greater Arcane Fusion :D atleast get four out in one round..

my personal favorite though is Spellsword Channel Spell

The level 10 ability Double Channel..

I double Channel two greater arcane fusions! BLAM! 40d6 + weapon damage+strength damage +what ever else!
Cherubaddon
10-23-06, 06:14 PM BW0222, why do you assume that the wizard will get killed if he fires a few fireballs, and somehow he doesn't get killed when he does something else, like normal level 11 spellcasting? If fireball is as weak as you would make us believe, why would the creatures bother to attack the wizard when there are much more dangerous enemies nearby, such as the wizard's familiar?

Sure, wizards are unlikely to live through a Full Attack at level 11, but I don't think the kind of spellcasting you do has any influence on that (Unless you buff yourself).

Good Point. Agree.
Second: What are your friends for? I mean, what wizard would [I]not[I] get killed in one round without a fighter defending him, a rogue to distract his enemies, and a cleric to heal him? And while the wizard might not survive the full attack of a Golden Protector, I can almost guarantee you that your mate's crazed barbarian/fighter/frenzied berserker will.
I think that's a pretty cool idea for a combo. I gotta try that one day (except that I usually forego evocation...hmm...).
wizard of Newfoundland
10-23-06, 06:19 PM Level 13 wizard, Sudden Quickened Greater Arcane Fusion :D atleast get four out in one round..

my personal favorite though is Spellsword Channel Spell

The level 10 ability Double Channel..

I double Channel two greater arcane fusions! BLAM! 40d6 + weapon damage+strength damage +what ever else!

Isn't Greater Arcane Fusion a Sorc only spell? and isn't it 8th level
wizard of Newfoundland
10-23-06, 06:24 PM [/QUOTE] I think that's a pretty cool idea for a combo. I gotta try that one day (except that I usually forego evocation...hmm...).[/QUOTE]

I usually do too but this party needs some damage cuz some players dropped out and it is now me, a rogue and a cleric of pelor. I figured why not drop ench/illusion since i get that from beguiler.

On a side note I can't believe that it actually works!
wizard of Newfoundland
10-23-06, 06:28 PM You've made an Error(s?)...
You can only apply the Ultimate Magus' metamagic capacity to spells with no other Metamgic already attached and you can only add one Meta to a spell...

Small Post, never saw it. Crappy:weep:
User5127
10-23-06, 06:34 PM but fret not! at epic you can actually lay off almost 200 spells in a round, if you build your character around doing that lol

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wizard of Newfoundland 10-23-06, 02:31 PM	in a camp i'm playing i'm a 4th level beguiler/1st level Evocer ( my DM let me switch the preqs to spontanious 2nd level spells and prepare 1st level spells) planning to take Ultimate Magus (CM). If I calculated this right by 11th level i could cast 8 firballs in 2 rounds using the Augmented casting special ability Round 1: Quicken,Twin,Repeat a fireball from wiz slot = 2 fireballs Twin Repeat another fireball = 2 fireballs Round 2: Repeat spell comes into play bringing in 4 fireballs under the same casting conditions If i made a mistake please point it out
Seerow 10-23-06, 02:38 PM	The only mistake you made was chosing to go into blasting as a specialty.
elondir 10-23-06, 02:41 PM	In what way is blasting a mistake? Sure save or die is the fad of the day, but 8 fireballs in two rounds, especially 8 energy substituted (sonic) fireballs, sounds pretty impressive to me.
Seerow 10-23-06, 02:44 PM	Energy Substituted may be reasonable. 8 normal fireballs at level 11 is just asking for any enemy with Fire Resist30. ("Lol you waste 8 spellslots and two feats... I take 10 damage")
Limousine_Liberal 10-23-06, 03:02 PM	I thought they eliminated Energy Substitution (sonic) when they rewrote the feat for Complete Arcane (unless you are an archmage).
LiamDeclan 10-23-06, 03:09 PM	I thought they eliminated Energy Substitution (sonic) when they rewrote the feat for Complete Arcane (unless you are an archmage). Yes they did.
BW0222 10-23-06, 03:29 PM	wizard of Newfoundland, Lets get serious about what an APL 11 group would be facing. First, a 10hd fireball does 35hp of damage on average. Add the relax save (DC 20 vs. +10 average reflex save) and folks take maybe 26hp on average. Your average APL 11+ monster likely has 125+ hit points. Second, many creatures have fire resistance by APL 12. Demons, devils, elementals, etc. spells which provide it, magical items, etc. Rogues or monks, etc. with evasion. Against many that might do nothing, or next to nothing. Spell resistance, etc. Average damage is likely in the 15hp range when you add all this together. Third, you need to win initative. If you don't you likely won't be around long enough at APL 11 to actually get to cast. Creature will have closed, be threatening, grappling, casting spells at you, etc. Forth, you need them in fireball formation. 20' radius isn't that big -- especially at APL 11 where large and huge creatures are common. Hallways, outdoors, large rooms, etc. you might not be able to get more than one or two creatures. There are few opportunities in 3.x to fireball folks. Fifth, in general, D&D encounters rarely rely on large numbers of heavily reduced APL creatures. If you are at APL 11, it is more likely you will run into 3 CR 9 creatures than 15 CR 5 creatures waiting to be fireballed. Sixth, after the first round, you are toast. A wizard with three slightly burned hill giant barbarians next to him isn't going to be around on the next round. Either will direct attacks, grapples, or just a few readying actions... the wizard is highly unlikely to get another spell off. Seven, the process takes two rounds. They are almost certain to close, scatter, or take cover, heal, etc. based on being blasted for the first round. Eight, it is a major expenditure of resources. I randomly opened the SRD to K-L. Appropriate combat encounters for an APL 11 party might consists of... * Kraken... 290hp. Water. (CR 12) * Golden Golden Protector (Celestial Half-Dragon Lammasu) 125hp, SR 15 (CR 13) * Leonal... 114hp, SR 28 (CR 12) * Hill giant, wereboar ... 185hp (CR 11) None of which would likely be killed in the first round. All of which would likely turn the wizard to a smear by the end of their initative. Many of these encounters would barely be affected.
Thiez 10-23-06, 03:50 PM	BW0222, why do you assume that the wizard will get killed if he fires a few fireballs, and somehow he doesn't get killed when he does something else, like normal level 11 spellcasting? If fireball is as weak as you would make us believe, why would the creatures bother to attack the wizard when there are much more dangerous enemies nearby, such as the wizard's familiar? Sure, wizards are unlikely to live through a Full Attack at level 11, but I don't think the kind of spellcasting you do has any influence on that (Unless you buff yourself).
CantripN 10-23-06, 05:07 PM	You've made an Error(s?)... You can only apply the Ultimate Magus' metamagic capacity to spells with no other Metamgic already attached and you can only add one Meta to a spell...
texanhick20 10-23-06, 05:48 PM	Level 13 wizard, Sudden Quickened Greater Arcane Fusion :D atleast get four out in one round.. my personal favorite though is Spellsword Channel Spell The level 10 ability Double Channel.. I double Channel two greater arcane fusions! BLAM! 40d6 + weapon damage+strength damage +what ever else!
Cherubaddon 10-23-06, 06:14 PM	BW0222, why do you assume that the wizard will get killed if he fires a few fireballs, and somehow he doesn't get killed when he does something else, like normal level 11 spellcasting? If fireball is as weak as you would make us believe, why would the creatures bother to attack the wizard when there are much more dangerous enemies nearby, such as the wizard's familiar? Sure, wizards are unlikely to live through a Full Attack at level 11, but I don't think the kind of spellcasting you do has any influence on that (Unless you buff yourself). Good Point. Agree. Second: What are your friends for? I mean, what wizard would [I]not[I] get killed in one round without a fighter defending him, a rogue to distract his enemies, and a cleric to heal him? And while the wizard might not survive the full attack of a Golden Protector, I can almost guarantee you that your mate's crazed barbarian/fighter/frenzied berserker will. I think that's a pretty cool idea for a combo. I gotta try that one day (except that I usually forego evocation...hmm...).
wizard of Newfoundland 10-23-06, 06:19 PM	Level 13 wizard, Sudden Quickened Greater Arcane Fusion :D atleast get four out in one round.. my personal favorite though is Spellsword Channel Spell The level 10 ability Double Channel.. I double Channel two greater arcane fusions! BLAM! 40d6 + weapon damage+strength damage +what ever else! Isn't Greater Arcane Fusion a Sorc only spell? and isn't it 8th level
wizard of Newfoundland 10-23-06, 06:24 PM	[/QUOTE] I think that's a pretty cool idea for a combo. I gotta try that one day (except that I usually forego evocation...hmm...).[/QUOTE] I usually do too but this party needs some damage cuz some players dropped out and it is now me, a rogue and a cleric of pelor. I figured why not drop ench/illusion since i get that from beguiler. On a side note I can't believe that it actually works!
wizard of Newfoundland 10-23-06, 06:28 PM	You've made an Error(s?)... You can only apply the Ultimate Magus' metamagic capacity to spells with no other Metamgic already attached and you can only add one Meta to a spell... Small Post, never saw it. Crappy:weep:
User5127 10-23-06, 06:34 PM	but fret not! at epic you can actually lay off almost 200 spells in a round, if you build your character around doing that lol