Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ApocalypseRat 12-16-06, 02:53 PM	ok i read this somwhere and i cant find the guy to ask him so i ask the wizboards your self.... if you use the spell animate dead with the spell general of undeath and use the zombie dragon template from Draconomicom and liberal use of the stone to flesh spell along with a wizard whom can cast the spell Major creation... would that make 8 Great Wyrm Silver Dragon Zombies? and if so how? im a little lost Thanks
Keterys 12-16-06, 03:20 PM	Not as far as I could tell, no. But, if you take out the part about stone to flesh and major creation, you're at least going to get a lot closer to something that _could_ happen.
Osedox 12-16-06, 03:26 PM	ok i read this somwhere and i cant find the guy to ask him so i ask the wizboards your self.... if you use the spell animate dead with the spell general of undeath and use the zombie dragon template from Draconomicom and liberal use of the stone to flesh spell along with a wizard whom can cast the spell Major creation... would that make 8 Great Wyrm Silver Dragon Zombies? and if so how? im a little lost ThanksI think what you are refering to is that some DM's might allow you to make suitable corpses by making a good enough statue of the creature you wanted, then turning it into flesh via stone to flesh. I however wouldnt allow this for zombies because you are merely crafting a statue that represents a dragon superficialy on the outside, not accounting for the "true anatomy" required to make a Zombie. With some decent craft stoneworking checks and a very high Knowledge arcana check (to get the anatomy right) I might allow someone to make a skeleton of a great wyrm via this method though.
DarknessEternal 12-17-06, 02:21 PM	You didn't do anything to ignore the HD limit of a single zombie imposed by Animate Dead, that is: no creature with more than 10 HD can be animated as a zombie.
Ovistavin 12-17-06, 03:12 PM	You didn't do anything to ignore the HD limit of a single zombie imposed by Animate Dead, that is: no creature with more than 10 HD can be animated as a zombie. ApocalypseRat is using the Zombie Dragon Template out of the Draconomicon. This template doesn't double the HD of a dragon corpse, so a dragon of up to 20 HD can be used.
ApocalypseRat 12-20-06, 09:16 AM	What if i could, at level 20, rebuke as a 48th level Cleric how would that work out?
Osedox 12-20-06, 09:29 AM	how would that work out?Im not sure, why dont you tell me?
ApocalypseRat 12-20-06, 09:34 AM	Lets Remember The Title I Would Get and i quote... 8 Great Wyrm Silver Dragon Zombies! :evillaugh :dancin: :evillaugh
Osedox 12-20-06, 09:42 AM	Yea, No. I ment how do you get the rebuking of a 48th level cleric at 20th?
ApocalypseRat 12-20-06, 10:05 AM	19 base +2 sacred buckler +2 sacred armor +2 sacred bracers +4 phylactery of undead turning +4 rod of authority +4 greater holy symbol +3 scepter of the Netherworld +4 rod of defiance(-4turn resistance) +4 rod of the dead =48th rebuke level see...:D
Osedox 12-20-06, 11:04 AM	Sacred doesent stack with itself (and im sure alot of those other bonuses dont stack either), and where is the greater Holy symbol from?
ApocalypseRat 12-20-06, 11:22 AM	ill double check and i think its from the DoTF
ninja1 12-21-06, 04:22 PM	ApocalypseRat, The first person that posted the Stone to Flesh to create a corpse to animate to my knowledge was R.M.G.C.L.F. At least, that is who I will always give credit to. I had a link to where he posted a "Custom Horrors" thread in the Monster Manual board, but unfortunately the link is no longer valid. The thread may have been lost. A domain restricted google search did not turn up anything either. What Osedox posted is correct, but If I may elaborate further, the general notion is this: 1. Obtain a large solid piece of rock... either through mundane means or via several Wall of Stone spells. 2. Create a statue of the corpse you desire... either through craft or several castings of Fabricate each time sculpting whatever portion of the statue you are able to. 3. Stone to Flesh has a smaller limit to how much stone it can affect, however Polymorph any Object can reproduce the effects of Stone to Flesh but has a much larger limit to the size of the statue.... still, you may need to sculpt a statue in a crunched or fetal position to get within the size constraints. 4. the Stone to Flesh effect on a statue creates a corpse. 5. animate the corpse provided. wash, rinse, repeat. Are you using the version of the General of Undeath spell that was nerfed in the Spell Compendium? Major Creation has a duration, how do you see it fitting in with any attempt to create undead? 8 Great Wyrm Silver Dragon Zombies is certainly possible... but at what Character Level? That would take some more info to figure out... also what +Caster Level domains/spells/items do you have access to? Also, if you can rebuke as a 48th level Cleric (Long Live the Lich King?)... then you can control two 24 HD undead via your rebuke quota. ApocalypseRat is using the Zombie Dragon Template out of the Draconomicon. This template doesn't double the HD of a dragon corpse, so a dragon of up to 20 HD can be used. Don't forget that the Draconomicaon Zombie Dragon template also does not have an upper limit. There is no HD cap, so a dragon of any HD can be used.
ApocalypseRat 12-22-06, 01:28 PM	Yes after a little searching i found the thread and yes ninja you are correct but to elabroate more heres the link.. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690724 ...no one argued with his but. Sacred doestnt state any specific bonus type (ex.enchantment bonus) and also theres nothing in there to say it doent stack.also it only works for armor and sheilds i can understand the rod stacking problem, but if you use rod of defiance first, then hold the other two that will work.but unless the staff is that way too then the staff wouldnt be added The greater holy symbol doesnt give to the turn lvl all it does it grant you the 'empored turning' feat i think so the new one will look somthing like this... 19 base +4 rod of defiance(-4turn resistance)(used First) +2 sacred buckler +2 sacred armor +4 phylactery of undead turning +4 rod of authority(left hand) +4 rod of the dead(right hand) =39th rebuke level if there a link saying this wont work i would like to have it bc ive been trying to improve on Warlord Griffin's design What do nightsticks do exactly???
Osedox 12-22-06, 02:23 PM	increase your CL, they are in the Lib Mort
Radijs 12-22-06, 02:36 PM	No nightsticks grant you extra turning attempts
ApocalypseRat 12-22-06, 02:43 PM	how many per stick?
PhaedrusXY 12-22-06, 02:56 PM	Four
mathiu 12-22-06, 03:10 PM	The issue is that the thing is still not a corpse. It is an amalgam of flesh that resembles a corpse. You can only make undead out of that which was once living. The flesh so created by the stone to flesh spell is already dead. Thus the best you can hope for is to animate it into a construct.
PhaedrusXY 12-22-06, 03:53 PM	The issue is that the thing is still not a corpse. It is an amalgam of flesh that resembles a corpse. You can only make undead out of that which was once living. The flesh so created by the stone to flesh spell is already dead. Thus the best you can hope for is to animate it into a construct.Although what you say would make more sense, that is not what the rules say. Stone to Flesh Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 6 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Target: One petrified creature or a cylinder of stone from 1 ft. to 3 ft. in diameter and up to 10 ft. long Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object); see text Spell Resistance: Yes This spell restores a petrified creature to its normal state, restoring life and goods. The creature must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to survive the process. Any petrified creature, regardless of size, can be restored. The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.) You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone. Material Component A pinch of earth and a drop of blood. The spell is very explicit in saying an ordinary statue would become a corpse.
ronyon 12-22-06, 05:20 PM	If yah got acess to Polymorph Any Object, then who cares about the Flesh to Stone? Couldnt you just get some dead lizards and get the same effect? -Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5:Animal? Mineral?Either way, a corpse is a corpse Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2: Hmm. Amimals/Dead or Minerals/Organic?Again, works both ways. Same size +2: skip this, unless you want to use a pile of lizard corpses...nah, that wouldnt work. Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.) +2: If you dont think a lizard corpse is like a dragon corpes, well you may be right. Same or lower Intelligence +2: Nuf said. This gets us 9 points and the permanent status easily. There is a reason to use the Stone to Flesh option, and thats custom made monsters.I dont like the customs to much since they depend on DM fiat. Something occures to me. Could a creature be temporarily turned into a corpse, Animated, and allowed to return to life? Sure, the Animate Dead spell would stop working at that point, but would it start again if that same creature later becme a corpse via the convential means?
Edymnion 12-22-06, 06:32 PM	I think what you are refering to is that some DM's might allow you to make suitable corpses by making a good enough statue of the creature you wanted, then turning it into flesh via stone to flesh. I however wouldnt allow this for zombies because you are merely crafting a statue that represents a dragon superficialy on the outside, not accounting for the "true anatomy" required to make a Zombie. The issue is that the thing is still not a corpse. It is an amalgam of flesh that resembles a corpse. You can only make undead out of that which was once living.Actually, nowhere in the spell does it say the target has to have ever been alive. All it requires is a corpse. The spell is very explicit in saying an ordinary statue would become a corpse.Yes, the very wording of the spell specifically says you get a corpse. Animate Dead specifically says that it requires a corpse. The two work together quite well, and is actually a lynchpin in the non-evil necromancer, in that they can get their bodies from statues, hence they are not violating any moral or spiritual taboos.
Osedox 12-23-06, 12:06 AM	Huh my bad twice, on the first one I didnt actualy bother to read the spell description for Stone to flesh, and on the second I apparently took leave of my mind.
xTimx 12-23-06, 12:17 AM	correct me if i'm wrong but. as far as i know, the stone to flesh spell can only be used when the "statue" has been casted from flesh to stone.
ninja1 12-26-06, 09:52 AM	If yah got acess to Polymorph Any Object, then who cares about the Flesh to Stone? Couldnt you just get some dead lizards and get the same effect? (errr, you mean Stone to Flesh) Not exactly... PaO can alter one corpse into another like a dead horse into a dead Fire Giant. However, the duration is now Permanent and is thus dispellable. Stone to Flesh is instantaneous making it not dispellable. About your second question, how would you "temporarily" turn a creature into a corpse... If it is dead, it's dead. Also, if it becomes animated and is destroyed, then it's destroyed. I would think one would need a Raise Dead (or similar) to recover. correct me if i'm wrong but. as far as i know, the stone to flesh spell can only be used when the "statue" has been casted from flesh to stone. Ok, you are corrected. :) I will not repost the entire spell description that PhaedrusXY so kindly posted for us, but if I might direct you to the body of the spell... You'll notice that the first paragraph does describe restoring a petrified creature, while the second paragraph describes converting original stone into flesh (and contains the bit about turning ordinary statues into corpses). Edit: Yes after a little searching i found the thread and yes ninja you are correct but to elabroate more heres the link.. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690724 Nah, I got that thread subscribed... and I like it.. kinda. ;) I was referring to the thread created by R.M.G.C.L.F. and titled something like: "Custom Horrors" which was located in the Monster Manual board. That was where the Stone to Flesh-corpse supply originated from.
ronyon 12-28-06, 02:14 AM	Um yeah, I did mean Stone to Flesh...oops. Stone to Flesh cant be dispelled? Even if it is cast using PAO?Cool. Anyway, I would use PAO to make a person temporarily a corpse. It can be dispelled, as you point out.PAO into corpse, Animate as a Zombi,Dispell or Dimiss the PAO. Now, what happen when this chump takes an arrow through the head? If he dies, does he become an instant Zombi, under your control? If so, cool. Not optimized but cool. Btw, to make a Zombi "The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy." A Stone To Flesh statue isnt the corpse of a creature at all.Its a corpse, but it isnt that of a creature. To make a skeleton, the corpse must have bones. GMs fiat here. Nothing in the Stone to Flesh spell description mentions bones. Also from Animate Dead:"This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands." Dispellable or not Ill stick with PAO.Couldnt one start with a fairly formidable animal Skeleton and PAO it into a powerful undead?
ninja1 12-28-06, 10:53 AM	Howdy ronyon! When it comes to spells that change the target, I tend to run with the idea that the target still has its base (true) form. When it comes to "stacking" some type of effect on a polymorphed object/creature, I use the base form to determine what happens. For example, I wouldn't allow multiple castings of Alter Self/Enlarge by the same creature to progressively increase it's size to Collossal. I'd check any subsequent spell against the target's true from to see if the desired end result is legal. If a creature was PaO'ed into a corpse and targeted with Animate Dead, I'd rule that the Animate wouldn't work because the target's base form wasn't a corpse. There are spells though that get the effect you describe.. when killed they become animated under your controll... I forget where, probably Libris Mortis or BoVD I think... The Stone to Flesh corpse thing has been debated, but I'm not too invested in it to want one side or another to win. I think the key thing to watch for is using the phrase "GMs fiat" If something is House Ruled, or depends upon DM's discretion, then it pretty much is not good to toss around the Forum (except in Unearthed Arcana and House Rules or the What's a Player/DM to do? boards). If it is not usefull by a vast majority of forum users (RAW), then it is useless to post here... we could just as well start a thread titled "I like tan dogs" and talk about the Eukanuba dog show or something... If I might play devil's advocate for you a little, I would say this: If we use the spell description of Animate Dead, we could pretty much say that: Targets: One or more corpses touched -Equals- This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands. Or... corpses equals bones or bodies of dead creatures bones or bodies of dead creatures equals corpses Since Stone to Flesh creates a corpse, there's no reason for me to think that it is not equivalent to the body of a dead creature... anatomy and all. All the above is just from a literary standpoint; the letter of the law. If I were asked to make a judgement for my game and house rule one direction or another, I'd have no qualms about allowing Stone to Flesh to create bones... or the rest of the true anatomy. Stone to Flesh is magic... magic is Huge! Changing stone material into a completely different substance is incredible! Magic allows our fantasy characters to do the impossible by our real-life standards. That being said, it's not a huge hurdle for me to overcome to see Stone to Flesh creating a corpse (with a true anatomy) as opposed to just a corpse looking/shaped lump of flesh. If you stick with PaO, that's cool. I would recommend though, that you manipulate your Caster Level a bit, and then cast Magic Mouth a few times upon your creation at a Caster Level of 1 level higher than that used for PaO (and Awaken Undead if you can manage that as well). Give the Magic Mouth some highly improbable trigger. I suggest this because if the PaO'ed undead is affected by an area dispel, the Magic Mouth will pop before the PaO and end the dispel as far as your creature is concerned. To protect against a targeted dispel, you just have to cross your fingers and hope your caster level for the PaO +11 is high enough. (there is a cool thread in Character Optimization for optimizing Caster Level). And yes, you can PaO a weaker undead into a stronger one... another reason to love Nerull and the Trickery Domain.
ronyon 12-28-06, 04:41 PM	I was saying GM Fiat as a way of saying the RAW doesnt say either way, so it really up to the GM. My point is that there is plenty of non-abitrary reasons for your GM to say no to this trick. I never worry much about dispels. The point of undead for me, however enhanced ,is expendability. I do like the ideas to slow down the dispels, but recall that evey round that thine enemy is dispelling is another round that most of your minions and you are womping on them. The spell that continues control past death(dont rember its name either) is cool, and would rule if your DM decides it works with Necrotic Tumor as well as the Geas. There is a precident for this withen the spell description, I think. What forms do you like to make out of a simple skeleton, for example?
forrestfire15 12-28-06, 09:42 PM	one of my favorite tricks is to use polymorph any object on any corpse (rat, orc, goblin, dog, donsnt matter) into a 12 head hidra, or the tarrasque
ninja1 12-29-06, 01:10 PM	I will still insist that RAW does specify, but I'd rather agree to disagree. :) For skeletons, I prefer dragons, pit fiends, or gating in titans. I also like the Pale Master's level 10 ability on Ghaeles (eladrans) via planar binding.