? permanent invisibility [Archive] - Wizards Community

? permanent invisibility [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
[GSV] Kirstar
12-01-04, 03:57 AM got some questions about the mechanics of this one.

are you permanently invisible, until you attack ?

can you turn visible and invisible at will ?

if you break the invisibility does it appear again in 10 minutes ?

anyway you get the idea.
Seeker95
12-01-04, 09:07 AM I would rule that the spell keeps you invisible at all times. Period.
Suffer the consequences. (Like trying to order food, etc.)

Invisibility the spell *ends* when you attack.
Permanency makes a spell never end.
So attacking would not turn you visible.
Nor could the target choose to be visible.

I think making invisibility permanent is best left for objects, etc.

A ring of invisibility it probably the better way to go for a creature.
[GSV] Kirstar
12-01-04, 09:12 AM ok, what about adding to your equipment ?
Seeker95
12-01-04, 09:16 AM Kirstar']ok, what about adding to your equipment ?What do you mean by this? If you mean making equipment permanently invisible, I think it's fine. As long as you have see invisibility it is a very wise move!
Nimrud
12-01-04, 09:21 AM I think he means "what happens if you add to your equipment while invisible?" Does the equipment also become invisible? I'd say yes, as per invisibility spell.
Derren S.
12-01-04, 09:28 AM Invisibility the spell *ends* when you attack.
Permanency makes a spell never end.
So attacking would not turn you visible.
Nor could the target choose to be visible.

I disagree.
Permanency changes the duration to permanent.
Attacking causes invisibility to end regardless of duration
So when you attack the invisibility ends and you wasted a lot XP for permanency.
Addi83
12-01-04, 09:32 AM It's a good thing they don't allow you to make a permanent greater invisibility.

Obviously, permanency changes duration to permanent. Invisibility is still ended, regardless of duration, when you attack.

As has been said.
IMarvinTPA
12-01-04, 11:26 AM You can only permanency invisibility if invis is cast on an object. The only time this becomes an issue is if you made your dead friend invisibile and permanencied it and then he was raised. Or any other object->creature conversion.

IMarv
Nom
12-01-04, 05:21 PM Kirstar']ok, what about adding to your equipment ?Well, since it's just invisibility with a duration of permanent, see the invisibility spell in the PH and "Rules of the Game: There, not There" on the WotC web site.

As to duration, regular invisibility lasts 1 min/lvl (or until an act breaks the spell), so permanent invisibility lasts Permanent (or until an act breaks the spell).
MachinaDeus
12-01-04, 05:37 PM Although for some of the spells that are listed in the PHB as eligible to be permanent, such as some of the Fog spells, reform after a given time, so I'd maybe look into something similar to that. I.E. you are invisible, you attack, you become visible. You take no hostile actions for X amount of time, you become invisible again.
IMarvinTPA
12-01-04, 05:48 PM Hmm,
If that's the case, the next time the party rogue dies, I'll have to cast invis and permanency on her. I'll let the cleric know she needs to prep invisibility purge so she can res the rogue though.

Fun fun fun. :devil:

IMarv
Melpomene
12-01-04, 05:55 PM You know, a cloak of invisabilty would go great with a sword of true strike...
Bane
12-01-04, 10:55 PM I want to know if your opponents should take any penalties if you are visible, but your sword isn't.
caeruleus
12-02-04, 12:25 AM If you want to be able to become invisible at will, just play a pixie. You also get to fly.
[GSV] Kirstar
12-02-04, 03:51 AM people definatly misunderstand.

no munchkin invilved here.

some people understood my logic though.

permanent effects that are disrupted for some reason usually return after 10 minutes. I was thinking that invisibility would also return after 10 minutes if its disrupted.
Seeker95
12-02-04, 10:13 AM Kirstar']permanent effects that are disrupted for some reason usually return after 10 minutes. I was thinking that invisibility would also return after 10 minutes if its disrupted.I think this is fair. However, the "drawback" I would install is that the target cannot turn off the invisibility. Only actions that would normally cancel it will trigger visibility. Getting a room at the inn will be easy (just find an empty room) but ordering a meal could be more troublesome. Attacking the waiter just so he knows you are ready to order is not the best way to get good customer service! :devil:
Derren S.
12-02-04, 10:24 AM Kirstar']people definatly misunderstand.

permanent effects that are disrupted for some reason usually return after 10 minutes. I was thinking that invisibility would also return after 10 minutes if its disrupted.

But that is not the case with permanency. When it ends (for example dispelled) it ends and doesn't come back. The only protection is that it can only be diespelled by a higher caster level.
Seeker95
12-02-04, 10:58 AM But that is not the case with permanency. When it ends (for example dispelled) it ends and doesn't come back. The only protection is that it can only be diespelled by a higher caster level.You're mixing up surpression of permancency with the suppression of the spell it is making permanent.
Derren S.
12-02-04, 11:20 AM Invisibility can't be surpressed (except by AMFs). When you attack, invisibility ends. It doesn't get surpressed, it ends totally.

And permanency doesn't change that. It only changes the duration of the spell to permanent. When the permanent spell ends somehow, permanency ends with it and doesn't reactivate the spell after 10 minutes.
Seeker95
12-02-04, 01:42 PM Invisibility can't be surpressed (except by AMFs). When you attack, invisibility ends. It doesn't get surpressed, it ends totally.So now that we have that out of the way, consider the intent of the request. Assuming invisibility is made permanent...
what happens when you attack.

I like [GSV]'s suggestion of the invisibility being suppressed for ten minutes. My only addition is that the invisible person must deal with being invisible all the time. None of this "permanent invisibility at will."

But in fairness... let's acknowledge that Derren said it can't be done.
Derren S.
12-02-04, 02:41 PM That would be a cheap ring of invisibility.

Always invisible and when you want to become visible just stomp on the ground (Attack against the ground).

Not really a downside.
Seeker95
12-02-04, 03:59 PM Always invisible and when you want to become visible just stomp on the ground (Attack against the ground).Your objection has been noted, but now you're just being silly
(in the way that makes your comments irrelevant rather than amusing).
Derren S.
12-02-04, 04:23 PM Why irrelevant?

You can attack object and become visible. So when you want to be visible, just kick a tree.
That you can't turn off invisibility isn't much of a hindrance, but the 10 minute recharge time is a huge power boost of permanency and makes a ring of invisibility nearly useless.

And please show me some of those 10 minutes surpression itmes as I haven't seen them when I read the PHB/DMG.
Seeker95
12-02-04, 08:27 PM Why irrelevant? You can attack object and become visible. So when you want to be visible, just kick a tree. That you can't turn off invisibility isn't much of a hindrance, but the 10 minute recharge time is a huge power boost of permanency and makes a ring of invisibility nearly useless.

And please show me some of those 10 minutes surpression itmes as I haven't seen them when I read the PHB/DMG.1. It has already been acknowledged how the rules say it *technically* would play out.
2. We've already acknowledged that we want to make one a little more permanent.
3. We are now discussing ways to balance a more permanent version.

**********

And seriously.. hit the floor? Kick a tree? Come on.
[GSV] Kirstar
12-03-04, 03:26 AM i cant remember where the 10 minutes is listed now, it used to be a 2bd ed thing.

i know in symbol spells it mentions that it return after 10 minutes still

I must admit I had the idea of attacking the ground to break invisibility.
Derren S.
12-03-04, 04:34 AM And seriously.. hit the floor? Kick a tree? Come on.

I define attacking as making an attack roll, or using a spell which directly damages another creature (or has the ability to).
Kicking a tree fits into this as you make an attack roll.

What is your definition of an attack?
When you say that kicking a tree is not an attack, what about a monk kicking a tree? And what if the tree is animated? (Or otherwise a plant creature)
Seeker95
12-03-04, 10:41 AM What is your definition of an attack?
When you say that kicking a tree is not an attack, what about a monk kicking a tree? And what if the tree is animated? (Or otherwise a plant creature)My definition of making an attack would not include kicking the floor.
Nor would it include kicking a tree. Not even if you're a monk.
Slamming your fist on the desk in anger would not count either.
Nor would it include shooting an arrow at an archery target.

Kicking a plant creature is an attack. The creature has an armor class, and you must make an attack roll. Making an attack against an animated object (even an animated tree) is just that -- an attack.

Now that you have an idea of what I would consider an attack, you're still missing the point. But I am also quite confident that you will continue missing the point. Your agenda is clearly something other than what I have said I am actually discussing. Which is not to say that your agenda is clear. Just clearly something else.

To the rest of you
We now return to the original question of How would you adjudicate the mechanics of a permanent invisibility, assuming you were to allow it to work in the first place?

Acknowledgment: We already know Derren would not allow it to work.
Derren S.
12-03-04, 11:07 AM You are missing the point. Nowhere in the whole thread Kirstar asked how he should houserule this. He asked what would happen when he does this and you started with confusing him with your houserules.

Kirstar asked if
you are invisible until you attack (Yes)
you can turn visible and invisible at will (No)
If the invisibility returns after 10 minutes (No)

Nothing more.

And inanimate object also have an AC you have to hit (5), so you must make an attack roll which makes you visible.
What permanent invisibility does is clearly defined. Why do you want to change this?
Seeker95
12-03-04, 11:29 AM [GSV] initially asked:
are you permanently invisible, until you attack ?
can you turn visible and invisible at will ?
if you break the invisibility does it appear again in 10 minutes ?

It was acknowledged (more than once) that you (and others) said how the RAW would adjudicate this. But the tone of the thread moved from that by many different posters. Almost all of the suggestions were opinions identified (in most cases) as house rulings.

Threads can evolve. It appears to be your intent to prevent that evolution. Keeping a thread "on track" is admirable. But we've already passed the station of "the RAW". No amount of exploration of houserules on the topic at hand undermine the existence of the RAW. No amount of houserule proposals will require you to change how you adjudicate. There is no threat to your game (or mine -- I already know I won't allow permanency to be applied to invisibility on a person) in exploring this.

And in case you need it said yet again:
Derren has noted that by the RAW, permancency will not last long for invisibility.
He is right.

So, if you were to make it work, what would you do to keep it balanced?*

*The thread was started by [GSV]. If he wants a RAW answer, it has already been provided. If he wants to go beyond the RAW, this helps. If he doesn't, our further discussion does not change the answer he has already received.
Derren S.
12-03-04, 11:32 AM Then you are talking with yourself, as no one asked for a houserule except you.

But ok. I suggest that the invisibility kicks in after 8 hours of rest. So, the permainvis can be used for scouting and to avoid ambushes but has no combat value except getting surprise.
Seeker95
12-03-04, 11:45 AM Then you are talking with yourself, as no one asked for a houserule except you.Yeah.... riiiighht.

[GSV] Kirstar: ok, what about adding to your equipment ?

MachinaDeus: Although for some of the spells that are listed in the PHB as eligible to be permanent, such as some of the Fog spells, reform after a given time, so I'd maybe look into something similar to that. I.E. you are invisible, you attack, you become visible. You take no hostile actions for X amount of time, you become invisible again.

Bane: I want to know if your opponents should take any penalties if you are visible, but your sword isn't.

caeruleus: If you want to be able to become invisible at will, just play a pixie. You also get to fly.

[GSV] Kirstar: people definatly misunderstand. no munchkin invilved here. some people understood my logic though. permanent effects that are disrupted for some reason usually return after 10 minutes. I was thinking that invisibility would also return after 10 minutes if its disrupted.

Not all on the same exact topic, but definitely evidence of the evolution of the thread away from the initial set of questions.

However, the thread has been derailed by both Derren and Myself at this time. I apologize for my contribution to that derailment. [GSV], if you do want to explore non-RAW options, I'll rejoin the thread, but I'm checking out with regard to any further comments Derren may make in response to this post.
mercurial67
12-03-04, 01:51 PM Couple of points on this entire thread.

1) You can only make invisibility permanent on objects. Based on this, once you brought your "object" friend back to life, he/she would no longer be an object & the permanancy would no longer apply.

2) There is no 10 minute rule for permanency. It changes the duration of the spell to permanent. As soon as the suppression effect ends or is moved out of (such as with an anti-magic field) the spell is back in effect. If you dispell it, then the spell is gone.

3) Based on the invisibility spell, if you set an object down it will become visible. If you pick an object up, it only becomes invisible if you hide it under part of your clothing/body/gear which is invisible. Eventually everything you are carrying will become visible unless you never bath/change clothes/drop an item.
glowworm
12-03-04, 02:22 PM dosent it say under the spells that can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent spell that is damaged regrows in 10 minutes?
like it does with the spell web and such? I think once again WoTC wrote something once and expected us to read it and then use common logic to apply it to all other situations. like if you were to make a Pri Sphere permanent and someone used the spells to try and tear it down after 10 mins it would resume. it is not listed under the spell permanency but if you cross check over to the spell in question there is a 10 min rule sorry try again and read the book one more time thank you. :D
IMarvinTPA
12-03-04, 02:48 PM Q1) Are you permanently invisible, until you attack?
Q1AQ) How did yo accomplish this, you can only make invisibility permanent on objects?

Q2) can you turn visible and invisible at will?
A1) No, you can't normally make yourself visible and invisible at will with invisibility.

Q3) If you break the invisibility does it appear again in 10 minutes?
A3) The spell description does not mention what happens if the invisibility effect gets disrupted on an object.

Mercurial:
1) You can only make invisibility permanent on objects. Based on this, once you brought your "object" friend back to life, he/she would no longer be an object & the permanancy would no longer apply.

The target is tested only at casting time, otherwise death and raise dead would destroy your permanencied See Invisibility. I believe it has been proven that the effect remains with the body, it just doesn't do it any good.

Q4) What about Equipment?
If you have your money pouch permanently invisible, it probably won't be stolen by a sleight of hand by a rogue.
Armor would proably surprise your foe.
A Weapon should probably get a +4 circumstance bonus to hit and maybe negate dodge bonuses unless the target can see invisible. You would get a -4 competency penalty if you can't see invisible. But I'm making this part up as I go.

IMarv
Seeker95
12-03-04, 03:05 PM Q4) What about Equipment?
A4) Armor would proably surprise your foe.
A Weapon should probably get a +4 circumstance bonus to hit and maybe negate dodge bonuses unless the target can see invisible. You would get a -4 competency penalty if you can't see invisible. But I'm making this part up as I go.I would not give you a better chance to hit with an invisible weapon than you get by being invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible).

The best I would do is grant a +1 circumstance bonus on all attacks; or
grant a +2 circumstance bonus to only the first attack.

As for armor, while it might surprise them, I wouldn't let it grant any AC bonuses, nor any penalties for your opponents.
IMarvinTPA
12-03-04, 03:14 PM I did not take away their dex bonus which means the rogue won't get a sneak attack with an invisible weapon. Still, I agree and would limit it to a +2 bonus.
I gave no bonuses or penalties to Armor. It would just be a flavor thing. And if the foe has the invisible armor, the party might not loot it, slight but possible chance.

The problem is, there are no rules on invisible weapons, armor, or gear.

Perhaps we e-mail the sage and look for a Dragon Magazine answer.

IMarv
Seeker95
12-03-04, 07:35 PM The problem is, there are no rules on invisible weapons, armor, or gear.
Perhaps we e-mail the sage and look for a Dragon Magazine answer.Much as I respect the Sage, I think your first sentence in the quote is quite accurate. There are no rules. As such, any answer we might get from the Sage would be his suggested house rule. I've spoen with enough of you on these boards to know that when it comes to designing house rules, you're the best resource on the block!

Now, as to some of the existing rules on invisibility, and how they might apply to invisible equipment...

Sundering an Invisible Weapon
I think trying to sunder an invisible weapon would be the same as trying to hit an invisible opponent when you know what square he is in. The weapon would not only be harder to hit (a -2 penalty to attack) but it would also have concealment, creating a 50% miss chance if you do "hit".

Returning Enhancment Weapons
If you can't see invisible, I bet the thrower has a chance of getting hit by his own weapons when they return!

Invisible Arrows
Those with deflect arrows abilities would probably not be able to use them.
Nom
12-04-04, 12:33 AM Assuming the 'subject attacks any creature' clause doesn't meaningfully apply to objects, I'd assign the following bonuses for an Invisible weapon.

+1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls, not cumulative with any bonuses for blinded defenders or invisible attackers.

+4 circumstance bonus on Feint attempts.
Total concealment (50% miss chance) against Sunder or Disarm attempts.

The +1 on attack rolls is half what is gained if the attacker is completely invisible. Total concealment vs Sunder and Disarm is perhaps a bit generous, but I don't think it's overpowering. Note that there is no to-hit penalty against an invisible opponent, thus why I don't allocate the -2 like Seeker did.

I'd apply the same 50% miss chance against deflecting an invisible arrow, assuming you saw it being fired. It's pretty much a reflex thing anyway.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
[GSV] Kirstar 12-01-04, 03:57 AM	got some questions about the mechanics of this one. are you permanently invisible, until you attack ? can you turn visible and invisible at will ? if you break the invisibility does it appear again in 10 minutes ? anyway you get the idea.
Seeker95 12-01-04, 09:07 AM	I would rule that the spell keeps you invisible at all times. Period. Suffer the consequences. (Like trying to order food, etc.) Invisibility the spell ends when you attack. Permanency makes a spell never end. So attacking would not turn you visible. Nor could the target choose to be visible. I think making invisibility permanent is best left for objects, etc. A ring of invisibility it probably the better way to go for a creature.
[GSV] Kirstar 12-01-04, 09:12 AM	ok, what about adding to your equipment ?
Seeker95 12-01-04, 09:16 AM	Kirstar']ok, what about adding to your equipment ?What do you mean by this? If you mean making equipment permanently invisible, I think it's fine. As long as you have see invisibility it is a very wise move!
Nimrud 12-01-04, 09:21 AM	I think he means "what happens if you add to your equipment while invisible?" Does the equipment also become invisible? I'd say yes, as per invisibility spell.
Derren S. 12-01-04, 09:28 AM	Invisibility the spell ends when you attack. Permanency makes a spell never end. So attacking would not turn you visible. Nor could the target choose to be visible. I disagree. Permanency changes the duration to permanent. Attacking causes invisibility to end regardless of duration So when you attack the invisibility ends and you wasted a lot XP for permanency.
Addi83 12-01-04, 09:32 AM	It's a good thing they don't allow you to make a permanent greater invisibility. Obviously, permanency changes duration to permanent. Invisibility is still ended, regardless of duration, when you attack. As has been said.
IMarvinTPA 12-01-04, 11:26 AM	You can only permanency invisibility if invis is cast on an object. The only time this becomes an issue is if you made your dead friend invisibile and permanencied it and then he was raised. Or any other object->creature conversion. IMarv
Nom 12-01-04, 05:21 PM	Kirstar']ok, what about adding to your equipment ?Well, since it's just invisibility with a duration of permanent, see the invisibility spell in the PH and "Rules of the Game: There, not There" on the WotC web site. As to duration, regular invisibility lasts 1 min/lvl (or until an act breaks the spell), so permanent invisibility lasts Permanent (or until an act breaks the spell).
MachinaDeus 12-01-04, 05:37 PM	Although for some of the spells that are listed in the PHB as eligible to be permanent, such as some of the Fog spells, reform after a given time, so I'd maybe look into something similar to that. I.E. you are invisible, you attack, you become visible. You take no hostile actions for X amount of time, you become invisible again.
IMarvinTPA 12-01-04, 05:48 PM	Hmm, If that's the case, the next time the party rogue dies, I'll have to cast invis and permanency on her. I'll let the cleric know she needs to prep invisibility purge so she can res the rogue though. Fun fun fun. :devil: IMarv
Melpomene 12-01-04, 05:55 PM	You know, a cloak of invisabilty would go great with a sword of true strike...
Bane 12-01-04, 10:55 PM	I want to know if your opponents should take any penalties if you are visible, but your sword isn't.
caeruleus 12-02-04, 12:25 AM	If you want to be able to become invisible at will, just play a pixie. You also get to fly.
[GSV] Kirstar 12-02-04, 03:51 AM	people definatly misunderstand. no munchkin invilved here. some people understood my logic though. permanent effects that are disrupted for some reason usually return after 10 minutes. I was thinking that invisibility would also return after 10 minutes if its disrupted.
Seeker95 12-02-04, 10:13 AM	Kirstar']permanent effects that are disrupted for some reason usually return after 10 minutes. I was thinking that invisibility would also return after 10 minutes if its disrupted.I think this is fair. However, the "drawback" I would install is that the target cannot turn off the invisibility. Only actions that would normally cancel it will trigger visibility. Getting a room at the inn will be easy (just find an empty room) but ordering a meal could be more troublesome. Attacking the waiter just so he knows you are ready to order is not the best way to get good customer service! :devil:
Derren S. 12-02-04, 10:24 AM	Kirstar']people definatly misunderstand. permanent effects that are disrupted for some reason usually return after 10 minutes. I was thinking that invisibility would also return after 10 minutes if its disrupted. But that is not the case with permanency. When it ends (for example dispelled) it ends and doesn't come back. The only protection is that it can only be diespelled by a higher caster level.
Seeker95 12-02-04, 10:58 AM	But that is not the case with permanency. When it ends (for example dispelled) it ends and doesn't come back. The only protection is that it can only be diespelled by a higher caster level.You're mixing up surpression of permancency with the suppression of the spell it is making permanent.
Derren S. 12-02-04, 11:20 AM	Invisibility can't be surpressed (except by AMFs). When you attack, invisibility ends. It doesn't get surpressed, it ends totally. And permanency doesn't change that. It only changes the duration of the spell to permanent. When the permanent spell ends somehow, permanency ends with it and doesn't reactivate the spell after 10 minutes.
Seeker95 12-02-04, 01:42 PM	Invisibility can't be surpressed (except by AMFs). When you attack, invisibility ends. It doesn't get surpressed, it ends totally.So now that we have that out of the way, consider the intent of the request. Assuming invisibility is made permanent... what happens when you attack. I like [GSV]'s suggestion of the invisibility being suppressed for ten minutes. My only addition is that the invisible person must deal with being invisible all the time. None of this "permanent invisibility at will." But in fairness... let's acknowledge that Derren said it can't be done.
Derren S. 12-02-04, 02:41 PM	That would be a cheap ring of invisibility. Always invisible and when you want to become visible just stomp on the ground (Attack against the ground). Not really a downside.
Seeker95 12-02-04, 03:59 PM	Always invisible and when you want to become visible just stomp on the ground (Attack against the ground).Your objection has been noted, but now you're just being silly (in the way that makes your comments irrelevant rather than amusing).
Derren S. 12-02-04, 04:23 PM	Why irrelevant? You can attack object and become visible. So when you want to be visible, just kick a tree. That you can't turn off invisibility isn't much of a hindrance, but the 10 minute recharge time is a huge power boost of permanency and makes a ring of invisibility nearly useless. And please show me some of those 10 minutes surpression itmes as I haven't seen them when I read the PHB/DMG.
Seeker95 12-02-04, 08:27 PM	Why irrelevant? You can attack object and become visible. So when you want to be visible, just kick a tree. That you can't turn off invisibility isn't much of a hindrance, but the 10 minute recharge time is a huge power boost of permanency and makes a ring of invisibility nearly useless. And please show me some of those 10 minutes surpression itmes as I haven't seen them when I read the PHB/DMG.1. It has already been acknowledged how the rules say it technically would play out. 2. We've already acknowledged that we want to make one a little more permanent. 3. We are now discussing ways to balance a more permanent version. ********** And seriously.. hit the floor? Kick a tree? Come on.
[GSV] Kirstar 12-03-04, 03:26 AM	i cant remember where the 10 minutes is listed now, it used to be a 2bd ed thing. i know in symbol spells it mentions that it return after 10 minutes still I must admit I had the idea of attacking the ground to break invisibility.
Derren S. 12-03-04, 04:34 AM	And seriously.. hit the floor? Kick a tree? Come on. I define attacking as making an attack roll, or using a spell which directly damages another creature (or has the ability to). Kicking a tree fits into this as you make an attack roll. What is your definition of an attack? When you say that kicking a tree is not an attack, what about a monk kicking a tree? And what if the tree is animated? (Or otherwise a plant creature)
Seeker95 12-03-04, 10:41 AM	What is your definition of an attack? When you say that kicking a tree is not an attack, what about a monk kicking a tree? And what if the tree is animated? (Or otherwise a plant creature)My definition of making an attack would not include kicking the floor. Nor would it include kicking a tree. Not even if you're a monk. Slamming your fist on the desk in anger would not count either. Nor would it include shooting an arrow at an archery target. Kicking a plant creature is an attack. The creature has an armor class, and you must make an attack roll. Making an attack against an animated object (even an animated tree) is just that -- an attack. Now that you have an idea of what I would consider an attack, you're still missing the point. But I am also quite confident that you will continue missing the point. Your agenda is clearly something other than what I have said I am actually discussing. Which is not to say that your agenda is clear. Just clearly something else. To the rest of you We now return to the original question of How would you adjudicate the mechanics of a permanent invisibility, assuming you were to allow it to work in the first place? Acknowledgment: We already know Derren would not allow it to work.
Derren S. 12-03-04, 11:07 AM	You are missing the point. Nowhere in the whole thread Kirstar asked how he should houserule this. He asked what would happen when he does this and you started with confusing him with your houserules. Kirstar asked if you are invisible until you attack (Yes) you can turn visible and invisible at will (No) If the invisibility returns after 10 minutes (No) Nothing more. And inanimate object also have an AC you have to hit (5), so you must make an attack roll which makes you visible. What permanent invisibility does is clearly defined. Why do you want to change this?
Seeker95 12-03-04, 11:29 AM	[GSV] initially asked: are you permanently invisible, until you attack ? can you turn visible and invisible at will ? if you break the invisibility does it appear again in 10 minutes ? It was acknowledged (more than once) that you (and others) said how the RAW would adjudicate this. But the tone of the thread moved from that by many different posters. Almost all of the suggestions were opinions identified (in most cases) as house rulings. Threads can evolve. It appears to be your intent to prevent that evolution. Keeping a thread "on track" is admirable. But we've already passed the station of "the RAW". No amount of exploration of houserules on the topic at hand undermine the existence of the RAW. No amount of houserule proposals will require you to change how you adjudicate. There is no threat to your game (or mine -- I already know I won't allow permanency to be applied to invisibility on a person) in exploring this. And in case you need it said yet again: Derren has noted that by the RAW, permancency will not last long for invisibility. He is right. So, if you were to make it work, what would you do to keep it balanced?* *The thread was started by [GSV]. If he wants a RAW answer, it has already been provided. If he wants to go beyond the RAW, this helps. If he doesn't, our further discussion does not change the answer he has already received.
Derren S. 12-03-04, 11:32 AM	Then you are talking with yourself, as no one asked for a houserule except you. But ok. I suggest that the invisibility kicks in after 8 hours of rest. So, the permainvis can be used for scouting and to avoid ambushes but has no combat value except getting surprise.
Seeker95 12-03-04, 11:45 AM	Then you are talking with yourself, as no one asked for a houserule except you.Yeah.... riiiighht. [GSV] Kirstar: ok, what about adding to your equipment ? MachinaDeus: Although for some of the spells that are listed in the PHB as eligible to be permanent, such as some of the Fog spells, reform after a given time, so I'd maybe look into something similar to that. I.E. you are invisible, you attack, you become visible. You take no hostile actions for X amount of time, you become invisible again. Bane: I want to know if your opponents should take any penalties if you are visible, but your sword isn't. caeruleus: If you want to be able to become invisible at will, just play a pixie. You also get to fly. [GSV] Kirstar: people definatly misunderstand. no munchkin invilved here. some people understood my logic though. permanent effects that are disrupted for some reason usually return after 10 minutes. I was thinking that invisibility would also return after 10 minutes if its disrupted. Not all on the same exact topic, but definitely evidence of the evolution of the thread away from the initial set of questions. However, the thread has been derailed by both Derren and Myself at this time. I apologize for my contribution to that derailment. [GSV], if you do want to explore non-RAW options, I'll rejoin the thread, but I'm checking out with regard to any further comments Derren may make in response to this post.
mercurial67 12-03-04, 01:51 PM	Couple of points on this entire thread. 1) You can only make invisibility permanent on objects. Based on this, once you brought your "object" friend back to life, he/she would no longer be an object & the permanancy would no longer apply. 2) There is no 10 minute rule for permanency. It changes the duration of the spell to permanent. As soon as the suppression effect ends or is moved out of (such as with an anti-magic field) the spell is back in effect. If you dispell it, then the spell is gone. 3) Based on the invisibility spell, if you set an object down it will become visible. If you pick an object up, it only becomes invisible if you hide it under part of your clothing/body/gear which is invisible. Eventually everything you are carrying will become visible unless you never bath/change clothes/drop an item.
glowworm 12-03-04, 02:22 PM	dosent it say under the spells that can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent spell that is damaged regrows in 10 minutes? like it does with the spell web and such? I think once again WoTC wrote something once and expected us to read it and then use common logic to apply it to all other situations. like if you were to make a Pri Sphere permanent and someone used the spells to try and tear it down after 10 mins it would resume. it is not listed under the spell permanency but if you cross check over to the spell in question there is a 10 min rule sorry try again and read the book one more time thank you. :D
IMarvinTPA 12-03-04, 02:48 PM	Q1) Are you permanently invisible, until you attack? Q1AQ) How did yo accomplish this, you can only make invisibility permanent on objects? Q2) can you turn visible and invisible at will? A1) No, you can't normally make yourself visible and invisible at will with invisibility. Q3) If you break the invisibility does it appear again in 10 minutes? A3) The spell description does not mention what happens if the invisibility effect gets disrupted on an object. Mercurial: 1) You can only make invisibility permanent on objects. Based on this, once you brought your "object" friend back to life, he/she would no longer be an object & the permanancy would no longer apply. The target is tested only at casting time, otherwise death and raise dead would destroy your permanencied See Invisibility. I believe it has been proven that the effect remains with the body, it just doesn't do it any good. Q4) What about Equipment? If you have your money pouch permanently invisible, it probably won't be stolen by a sleight of hand by a rogue. Armor would proably surprise your foe. A Weapon should probably get a +4 circumstance bonus to hit and maybe negate dodge bonuses unless the target can see invisible. You would get a -4 competency penalty if you can't see invisible. But I'm making this part up as I go. IMarv
Seeker95 12-03-04, 03:05 PM	Q4) What about Equipment? A4) Armor would proably surprise your foe. A Weapon should probably get a +4 circumstance bonus to hit and maybe negate dodge bonuses unless the target can see invisible. You would get a -4 competency penalty if you can't see invisible. But I'm making this part up as I go.I would not give you a better chance to hit with an invisible weapon than you get by being invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible). The best I would do is grant a +1 circumstance bonus on all attacks; or grant a +2 circumstance bonus to only the first attack. As for armor, while it might surprise them, I wouldn't let it grant any AC bonuses, nor any penalties for your opponents.
IMarvinTPA 12-03-04, 03:14 PM	I did not take away their dex bonus which means the rogue won't get a sneak attack with an invisible weapon. Still, I agree and would limit it to a +2 bonus. I gave no bonuses or penalties to Armor. It would just be a flavor thing. And if the foe has the invisible armor, the party might not loot it, slight but possible chance. The problem is, there are no rules on invisible weapons, armor, or gear. Perhaps we e-mail the sage and look for a Dragon Magazine answer. IMarv
Seeker95 12-03-04, 07:35 PM	The problem is, there are no rules on invisible weapons, armor, or gear. Perhaps we e-mail the sage and look for a Dragon Magazine answer.Much as I respect the Sage, I think your first sentence in the quote is quite accurate. There are no rules. As such, any answer we might get from the Sage would be his suggested house rule. I've spoen with enough of you on these boards to know that when it comes to designing house rules, you're the best resource on the block! Now, as to some of the existing rules on invisibility, and how they might apply to invisible equipment... Sundering an Invisible Weapon I think trying to sunder an invisible weapon would be the same as trying to hit an invisible opponent when you know what square he is in. The weapon would not only be harder to hit (a -2 penalty to attack) but it would also have concealment, creating a 50% miss chance if you do "hit". Returning Enhancment Weapons If you can't see invisible, I bet the thrower has a chance of getting hit by his own weapons when they return! Invisible Arrows Those with deflect arrows abilities would probably not be able to use them.
Nom 12-04-04, 12:33 AM	Assuming the 'subject attacks any creature' clause doesn't meaningfully apply to objects, I'd assign the following bonuses for an Invisible weapon. +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls, not cumulative with any bonuses for blinded defenders or invisible attackers. +4 circumstance bonus on Feint attempts. Total concealment (50% miss chance) against Sunder or Disarm attempts. The +1 on attack rolls is half what is gained if the attacker is completely invisible. Total concealment vs Sunder and Disarm is perhaps a bit generous, but I don't think it's overpowering. Note that there is no to-hit penalty against an invisible opponent, thus why I don't allocate the -2 like Seeker did. I'd apply the same 50% miss chance against deflecting an invisible arrow, assuming you saw it being fired. It's pretty much a reflex thing anyway.