Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Serow Darkstar 10-05-05, 11:48 PM	Hey there. I was doing some work on some custom effects, and ran into a bit of a problem... I've never seen a template for a 10' Cone effect, and I'm not quite sure how it would shape... My best bet would be something like: XOX XOO XXX XXX OOO XOX Where the O's represent spell area, and the X's represent uneffected squares. Would that be right?
green_yawgmoth 10-05-05, 11:52 PM	The second one. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Serow Darkstar 10-05-05, 11:57 PM	Ah... But, a Cone can go in diagonal as well... So, would the Diagonal cone go like this: XXOX XXOO XCXX XXXX C = Caster O = Area of Effect X = Null
smrtgmp 10-06-05, 12:16 AM	So, would the Diagonal cone go like thisI believe so.
Traevanon 10-06-05, 12:25 AM	I would be nice and give it 4 squares of effect in both cases so XXXX XOOX XOOX CXXX or XXXXX XOOOX XXOXX XXCXX Where C is the caster and O is the affected squares. But I'm just interpreting fairness off-the-cuff. I'm not sure if the RaW have any battle grid rules for cones, except I have heard that a template must cover at least half of a figure's base... so maybe you could make an actual paper template and compare it to the grid. I think you can begin the area at any point in your 5 foot square, so you can stretch it a bit (by starting at the forward corner) or widen it a bit (by beginning more to the rear). This might require some more investigation... I'll have to get back with you.
Nom 10-06-05, 12:28 AM	Remember, cones (like almost all spell area effects) go from point to point rather than centre to centre. So, you are correct for the first cone. The second cone would be: XOOX XOOX XCXX Assuming the origin is the top-right of the caster. Those are all the squares within a 90 degree arc like so \/ that can be crossed with 10 ft. distance. They both look a little funny, but then 10 ft. is a rather small distance relative to the grid scale.
tarkin 10-06-05, 01:11 PM	I would do it like this: A 10ft cone (90' degree), occupies an area 1/4 the size of a circle, or pi r *r /4 = 78 square feet. That should be exactly 3 5ft squares. I would therfore allow people to pick any of the following: X0X C00 XXX X00 C0X XXX I would not allow a 100 square foot shape, such as: X00 X00 CXX or 000 X0X XCX
Nom 10-06-05, 05:39 PM	I would do it like this: A 10ft cone (90' degree), occupies an area 1/4 the size of a circle, or pi r *r /4 = 78 square feet. That should be exactly 3 5ft squares.Well, it's "exactly" 3 and a little bit grid squares. However, the trouble with that number is that you're using cartesian geometry. D&D distance measurements (mostly) use a modified form of manhattan fistance, with an additional diagonal distance metric of 1.5 FRU. As such, the number of squares in a quarter of a circle varies by whether you're operating on the orthogonal or diagonal axes.
TheGogmagog 10-06-05, 08:47 PM	Well, it's "exactly" 3 and a little bit grid squares. However, the trouble with that number is that you're using cartesian geometry. D&D distance measurements (mostly) use a modified form of manhattan fistance, with an additional diagonal distance metric of 1.5 FRU. As such, the number of squares in a quarter of a circle varies by whether you're operating on the orthogonal or diagonal axes. Reminds me of the application of physics to D&D, never thought of Geometry rules being non-conventional. I probably would have allowed the two options with four squares each, before I saw the geometry calculation.
tarkin 10-07-05, 11:48 AM	The squares are supposed to be game aids, not game rules. If you use Hexes, this problem goes away entirely, as it is much better designed to deal with circles. xxxxxxx. .xxxxxxx xxxxxxx. .xxxCxx xx00xx. .xx0xxx xxxxxxx. Which can be turned in any direction. See how it takes up only 3 hexes? (Note, each Hex takes up a about 21.65 square ft, for a total of about 65 square ft). While not perfect, this looks closer to what people want. Hexes make circles and cones much easier to deal with.
IMarvinTPA 10-07-05, 12:05 PM	I support the 4 space "square" cone for the diagonal. Why? Who said it affects the entire space of all the squares involved? You only need to affect enough of the squares to get a good enough coverage on the targets. The 100 sft that the four squares share 22 sft of unaffected area. So, you have 5ish square foot areas in each square not really affected, which is not easy to get to fast enough not to get splashed. (Where they go for their reflex save!) IMarv
SALDAR 10-07-05, 01:18 PM	If a medium creature with a reach weapon can attack two squares diagonally, why would a 10' cone not be able to do so as well? You would affect 4 squares either straight or diagonal. Diagonal xxxxx xxoox xxoox xcxxx xxxxx Straight xxxxx xooox xxoxx xxcxx xxxxx
tarkin 10-07-05, 04:39 PM	Because you are not allowing a cone to reach two squares, you are allowing a cone to reach two squares TWICE. I am perfectly willing to let you do it to one side, but not both. One side results in almost exactly the area it is supposed to fill. You are trying to put the cone in 1/2 a square on either side and giving no benefit to the save. What it comes down to is the cone is not supposed to be that big, you are making it extra wide, and then by pointing to a game aid, claiming that it gets full effect. Grids are supposed to be game aids, not things that increase the area of a spell.
Nom 10-07-05, 08:02 PM	If a medium creature with a reach weapon can attack two squares diagonally, why would a 10' cone not be able to do so as well?Because the 10' diagonal reach is explicitly stated as an exception to the normal distance rules. It's treated as 10', even though the actual "distance" is 15. Straight xxxxx xooox xxoxx xxcxx xxxxxThis is incorrect, as the cone's origin is not on a point. RAW it is: xxxxx xxoox xxoox xxcxx xxxxx Notice that the rules allow you to shoot from any corner of your square. If the origin is bottom right and I shoot at 45 degrees off vertical I get: xxxxx xxoxx xcoox xxxxx Hex grids generally provide a more aesthetically pleasing approximation to a circle, though for larger radii a super-hex is actually less accurate than a square grid approximation. You also need to re-jig the rules because you are operating on 3 axes rather than 4 (mainly 90 degees becomes 60 degrees or 120 degrees). For interest, here is a lattice of spell effect distance metrics, measured from the top left corner. Distances are in squares: multiply by 5 to get feet. The other three quadrants are identical to this one.1234567 2345678 3445678 4556789 5667789 6778890 7889900 However, this whole discussion makes me curious: what effect uses a 10 ft. cone? The smallest I am aware of is burning hands, and that is 15 ft.
Serow Darkstar 10-07-05, 08:11 PM	To answer the question of "what effect uses a 10 ft. cone?", it's a custom ability I'm writing up for a d20 based rule set. The effects are similar to spells, but it's a little more free form, and the power curve starts a bit lower but offers more flexibility. It's the new system I have in the works for my "d20 no Jutsu" project. I'm basicly reworking the Jutsu system to better reflect the show. Also, I just noticed... The effect for a 15 foot cone in the DMG is placed as: XXXXX XOOOX XOOOX XXOXX XXCXX So, judging by that, I'd be inclined to say that XXXXX XOOOX XXOXX XXCXX Was proper for a 10-foot Foreward Cone. This is because as far as I can tell, since the origin is a point in the caster's square, it will work the same as movement. Hence... XXXXX XOOOX - 5 more feet Diagonal, 5 more feet Foreward, 5 more feet Diagonal. XXOXX - 5 feet Foreward XXCXX Basicly taking into account all possible movement ranges if you can move 10', going in a certain direction. This is how a 15' Cone works, so why wouldn't a 10' Cone work in the same manner, seeing as they are both Cones with a similar origin, unlike cones of 20' or higher?
Keenath 10-08-05, 02:03 AM	Never mind, see next post...
Keenath 10-08-05, 02:05 AM	Also, I just noticed... The effect for a 15 foot cone in the DMG is placed as: XXXXX XOOOX XOOOX XXOXX XXCXX That's weird. I thought a cone was as wide as its length. Did this change in 3.5?
Serow Darkstar 10-08-05, 04:46 AM	Page... 307 of the DMG, in the section with all the templates, has a 15' Cone like I showed above. This allows for even coverage, and no strange spaces that aren't covered for some reason. Which is what makes me believe the cone would be a T shape...
Tyler Do'Urden 10-08-05, 05:03 AM	This is why we need rules for "edge of the blast." You'd put it in Combat right next to cover and concealment, or maybe in the magic chapter in the explanation of area of effect. When someone is on the edge of the blast, it's because a spell, power, or ability that affects an area has partially covered their space. They're not completely within the effect but not completely out of it. There's any number of ways you could handle it, though. Free evasion/mettle, same save with a bonus, damage halved/effect reduced, etc. etc.
Minias 10-08-05, 06:53 AM	This question just came up last night. We are playing in a Sandstorm campaign and we fought some creatures which had a 10-foot cone breath weapon. We answered the quandry of what a 10-foot cone looks like on a diagonal by looking at the 10-foot burst 10-foot burst: xxxxxx xxooxx xoooox xoooox xxooxx xxxxxx A 10-foot cone on a diagonal will be a just one quarter of the 10-foot burst. 10-foot cone (diagonal) xxxxxx xxxoxx xxxoox xxcxxx You'll note that this only affects 3 squares. A 10-burst affects 12 squares, 1/4 of this area will be 3 squares. It worked for us. [edit: for stupid spelling error]
Nom 10-08-05, 07:53 AM	Don't you love it when the example doesn't follow the rules? The rules for cones are on PH pg 175, and quite well defined. The horizontal 15 ft. cone on DMG pg 307 does not follow those rules. (1) Trace out a 15 ft. cone as given by PH pg 175. You'll see it looks like this:----- --O-- -OOO- COOO- --O-- ----- (2) Trace out a 15 ft. cone by including all the squares on the 30 ft. cone template (DMG pg 306) that are within 15 ft. You'll see it looks the same as above. (3) Compare to the 15 ft. cone template on DMG pg 307.
Serow Darkstar 10-08-05, 06:48 PM	I think it doesn't follow the normal rules because of it's smaller size. Under 20' feet, I believe the rules for a Cone become a bit awkward. You have to admit, that's a pretty big area for a cone to cover... Nearly as big as a 10' burst.