Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sooperspook 03-15-05, 07:45 AM	I'm trying to design a stronger version of the Permanency spell. Mainly to get rid of the possibility that someone can just permanently dispel your suposedly Permanent spells. the problem is i don't want it to overstep into magic items area. here , let me know what you think. Imbue Universal Level: Sor/Wiz 7 ... As Permanency except as follows. When affected by a Dispel Magic ,or similar spell , The Imbued spell is only suppressed for 1d4 rounds +1 round per caster level of the Dispelling caster. Any spell that can be made permanent on creature or object can be Imbue'd in this manner. The XP cost is double that given in the Permnency spell description. Would this be too powerful? should i add more components?
VolkorTheRed 03-15-05, 07:58 AM	Its a nice idea. I like it! :) The fear for dispelling is what makes most wizards or sorcerers reconsider the notion of making spells permanent on themselves. (the same goes for spells with the Craft Contingent Spell feat) Adding that double xp cost makes certainly up for the more powefull version of permanency, IMHO. And the fact that an imbued spell(effect) is suppressed 1d4 + 1 round per caster level of the dispelling caster, also makes that your permanent spells are pretty much useless for the rest of the combat. Maybe a 1d4 rounds duration is enough for this suppressing effect? Maybe its necessary to add to the description that imbued spells are also suppressed in an Anti magic field? Like regular spell effects.
Seeker95 03-15-05, 08:53 AM	Rather than double, I would suggest triple. Doubling the experience still keeps it very affordable. The ONLY risk to permanency is its dispelability. Allowing it to be permanent with no real risk should cost considerably more.
runestar 03-15-05, 09:01 AM	Great idea, but why bother dispelling those buffs when the incantatrix BBEG can just steal them for himself? Now he has those undispellable buffs. Mwahahah!!!
VolkorTheRed 03-15-05, 09:14 AM	Great idea, but why bother dispelling those buffs when the incantatrix BBEG can just steal them for himself? Now he has those undispellable buffs. Mwahahah!!! Devious idea indeed, but it don't think it will work. :) with the seize concentration ability, you can only steal spells or effects who need concentration, and with the snatch spell ability, you can only steal spells or effects that are persistent and doesn not require concentrating upon, but still relies on or responds to the caster's control. As buff spells don't rely on responds or control from the caster, i don't think they can be snatched away. It would work for a spell like detect magic, as you need to concentrate if you want to use it properly, but it won't work on spells like bull's strength, cat's grace , protection from arrows etc. I'm playing an abjurer/incantatar myself and he rocks. Hopefully he'll survive until i can completely take the Incantatrix PrC :D Its a nice idea to wrest control away from thingies like Detect magic etc. :cool:
VolkorTheRed 03-15-05, 09:17 AM	Rather than double, I would suggest triple. Doubling the experience still keeps it very affordable. The ONLY risk to permanency is its dispelability. Allowing it to be permanent with no real risk should cost considerably more. You're right, i just checked the xp cost, and for the bonusses as imbued spells, its better to increase the xp cost for imbueing them. Triple or even quadruple seems more like it...
sooperspook 03-15-05, 06:24 PM	so, triple the xp cost then? what about an expensive material component as well? say ... 100 gp per level of the spell to be imbue'd? would allowing location imbue's be too much or just keep it to creature and object only? thanks for all the help guys :)
Seeker95 03-15-05, 09:20 PM	would allowing location imbue's be too much or just keep it to creature and object only?I'd say it should work exactly like permanency except... 1. dispel magic merely suppresses the effect. 2. Experience point costs are tripled. 3. break enchantment can dispel the effect.* *This last one is because there should be a way to end the effect. No magic is (should be) eternally permanent.
Pennarin 03-17-05, 12:55 AM	I'd like to see the finished product, sooperspook! :)
questionc 03-17-05, 05:02 AM	Seeker95 is really dead on with his suggestions. I'd just like to pipe in that Mage's Disjunction really should also be able to dispel effects, and would be neccisary for the area permanencies.
Vatras 03-17-05, 05:40 AM	I think game balance will be ok if: - this spell costs double the XP of permanency - dispelling suppresses them for 1 round per caster level (this keeps dispelling valuable but doesnt take out the spells beyond the encounter; remember you will face the same kind of opponent) - the various dispel effects work as Dispel Magic would, should they be applicable (dispel good, break enchantment, etc.) - Mordenkainens Disjunction has the same chance to kill them as it would for artefacts, and failing that is like Dispel Magic This assumes the DM wishes for "immortal" buffs in his game (there is the small loophole for Mordenkainen). (I dont care for unbreakable buffs/spells in my game and dont allow spells of this nature in the first place.)
God of Slivers 03-17-05, 10:42 AM	I really like this idea. Get some playtesting done on it and let us know how it turns out. If it works out I'd love to adopt it. Personally I think double the XP just feels right, but I'm not sure. I do believe that a Mord's Disjunction should have a chance to end it like it was a magic item, but otherwise just suppresses it. Anything short of a Wish or MDJ should only be allowed to suppress it. You are after all making a pseudomagic-item. Maybe triple the XP woudn't hurt after all? Anyway, test it out and let us know.
Mediator 03-17-05, 10:52 AM	Looking at the XP costs of Permanency it is questionable that the spells should be dispelled at all with dispel magic. Just compare it to non sloted magic items and their costs. Only Greater Magic Fang (for use on animal companions and Monks) would overpowered when treating permanency like being a magic item (and this can be handled with increased XP costs depending on effect). Maybe the surpression time can be doubled when dispel magic is used, but apart from that I would handle permanency on objects/people like magic items when it comes to dispelling (the invested XP should make some considerable difference).
sooperspook 03-17-05, 06:28 PM	Ok here it is. Thanks for the help everyone. hope you like it. :) Imbue Universal Level: Sor/Wiz 7 Components: V, S, XP Casting Time: 2 rounds Range: See text Target, Effect, or Area: See text Duration: Permanent; see text Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell makes certain other spells permanent. Depending on the spell, you must be of a minimum caster level and must expend a number of XP. You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself. Spell Minimum Caster Level XP Cost Arcane sight 13th 3,000 XP Comprehend languages 11th 1000 XP Darkvision 12th 2,000 XP Detect magic 11th 1000 XP Read magic 12th 1000 XP See invisibility 12th 2,000 XP Tongues 13th 3,000 XP You cast the desired spell and then follow it with the Imbue spell. You cannot cast these spells on other creatures. In addition to personal use, Imbue can be used to make the following spells permanent on yourself, another creature, or an object (as appropriate). Spell Minimum Caster Level XP Cost Enlarge person 11th 1000 XP Magic fang 11th 1000 XP Magic fang, greater 13th 3,000 XP Reduce person 11th 1000 XP Resistance 11th 1000 XP Telepathic bond1 15th 5,000 XP 1 Only bonds two creatures per casting of Imbue. Additionally, the following spells can be cast upon objects or areas only and rendered permanent. Spell Minimum Caster Level XP Cost Alarm 11th 1000 XP Animate objects 16th 6,000 XP Dancing lights 11th 1000 XP Ghost sound 11th 1000 XP Gust of wind 13th 3,000 XP Invisibility 12th 2,000 XP Mage’s private sanctum 15th 5,000 XP Magic mouth 12th 2,000 XP Phase door 17th 7,000 XP Prismatic sphere 19th 9,000 XP Prismatic wall 18th 8,000 XP Shrink item 13th 3,000 XP Solid fog 14th 4,000 XP Stinking cloud 13th 3,000 XP Symbol of death 18th 8,000 XP Symbol of fear 16th 6,000 XP Symbol of insanity 18th 8,000 XP Symbol of pain 15th 5,000 XP Symbol of persuasion 16th 6,000 XP Symbol of sleep 18th 8,000 XP Symbol of stunning 17th 7,000 XP Symbol of weakness 17th 7,000 XP Teleportation circle 19th 9,000 XP Wall of fire 14th 4,000 XP Wall of force 15th 4,000 XP Web 12th 2,000 XP Imbued spells are suppressed for 1 round per caster level if targeted by a Dispel Magic or similar effect. Disjunction, Wish or Miracle can permanently dispel an Imbued spell as though it were a magic item or instantaneous effect. XP Cost: See tables above.
smrtgmp 03-17-05, 06:32 PM	I don't think this spell should be affected by Break Enchantment. Break Enchantment <snip> This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25. If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower. If the effect comes from some permanent magic item break enchantment does not remove the curse from the item, but it does frees the victim from the item’s effects.Dispel Magic can't dispel this spell, and its higher than 5th level. Therefore, Break Enchantment shouldn't be able to permanently dispel it. I posted something similar to this a while back (mine was 8th level but more powerful). I can PM you a copy if you are interested.
God of Slivers 03-17-05, 06:46 PM	Also, please change the duration from permanent to instantaneous. This spell should modify the duration of another spell. As written you could dispel 'Imbue' and then just let the duration of the 'permanent' spell expire.
sooperspook 03-17-05, 06:53 PM	smrtgmp: oops. didn't see that. editing on the way. GoS: well , i copied the Duration straight from the Permanency spell descrp. The Permanent duration means that it can be detected by Detect Magic while and Instantaneous can't. so i left it as is.
God of Slivers 03-17-05, 07:07 PM	It also means they have two spells to dispel. IMC permanency has a duration of instantaneos. It can still be detected with detect magic because the other "permanent" spell is in effect, just not "Imbue." Permanency modifies the duration of a spell to that of "Permanent" yet it itself has a duration of "Permanent," this means that for every dispel check against you they have two shots to kill the permanency. If you change it to Instantaneous then this isnt a problem as there will only be the permanent spell in affect on you. This means that they only get one shot at dispel and they still light up on the 'ole detect magic radar.
stamhaven 03-17-05, 07:15 PM	If you take away the big downside of permanency over magic items (dispellable) you have to tread very carefully and balance the cost to the benefit. Permanancy does not require money just xp (indicating the xp cost should be higher than for the corresponding magic item). Second, permenancy does not require any feats to exicute making it superior (possibly mediated with the finite list of effects which can be made peranent). Third is that cost is fixed for each spell and does not scale by effect (for instance high level greater magic fang vs an amulet of mighty fists or a magic weapon). Last a "permanent" can't be sundered or stolen and doesn't need to be wielded (a big deal to wildshapers). Perhaps a better system would be to create an alternate use item creation system making use of the standard feats (or make a seprate single feat, "imbue spell" to make effects permanet on yourself only) and use the standard caster level and required spell prerequisites for creating magic items but use a formula to pay the cost in xp only (perhaps 1xp per 5gp in item creation cost). that would open a much greater variety of effects to be made permanent but would limit it to effects you could generate yourself (not restricted to wiz/sorcerer).
Bramir 03-17-05, 07:31 PM	Coming from someone who just lost about 5k xp in permanency spells due to death and dismemberment, I like it. ;)
Seeker95 03-18-05, 02:31 PM	Minor nitpick... If this is a 7th level spell, how could any caster have less than a CL of 13? :D
Gnarl 03-18-05, 03:16 PM	I'll give a shot at this thread. Why don't you consider the imbued spells as magic items for the purpose of being the target of spells like greater dispel magic, mage's disjunction and the like. Your caster level would of course be your caster level. As for the xp cost, I'd go for a "simple" rule: the xp cost of making the magic item item + 100% for being slotless magic items and not needing any money. Alternatively, you could pay half the market price of the magic item (including a 50% increase for slotless magic items) as material components. You might even make a feat instead, craft permanent spells.
sooperspook 03-18-05, 05:50 PM	Minor nitpick... If this is a 7th level spell, how could any caster have less than a CL of 13? :D The one casting Imbue doesnt have to be the one casting the desired spell, just like permanency. anyway i just upped the caster level requirements because its a higher level spell.
Seeker95 03-19-05, 01:07 PM	The one casting Imbue doesnt have to be the one casting the desired spell, just like permanency.The caster level is not the minimum caster level of the desired spell. It is the minimum caster level of the one casting permanency.