Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darien_Ashoka 11-18-07, 12:08 AM	So, I was thinking about the collateral damage for a Fireball spell. I know that the falme is magically created and takes a split second to arrive and dissapear. But, the book mentions that it will burn through objects if it can deal enough damage (such as a simple wooden door), so does that count all combustable objects? The SRD says that it will set all combustible objects alight - does that call for a save? What I'm asking is: if a wizard casts fireball, would the fighter's bowstring be incinerated? And would the bow catch on fire? If the cleric makes his reflex save for half damage, do his scrolls still catch on fire? Do I need to make saving throws for EVERY SINGLE combustable item on the players? I never have in the past, but I have been thinking about it, and it makes sense.....
PhaedrusXY 11-18-07, 12:17 AM	Attended items only have a chance of being destroyed by an area affect if their possessor rolls a natural 1 on his saving throw. Even then, they get a saving throw themselves to avoid being damaged, and only 1 item is actually damaged. Items Surviving after a Saving Throw Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal. If an item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage. From here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#itemsSurvivingafte raSavingThrow
Salla 11-18-07, 12:21 AM	Attended items only have a chance of being destroyed by an area affect if their possessor rolls a natural 1 on his saving throw. Even then, they get a saving throw themselves to avoid being damaged. Correct. However, in 1st Edition (and possibly in 2nd), you DID have to stop and roll saving throws for every single item in the blast radius, referencing a table that listed material type against a variety of attack types. In other words, the game came to an abrupt stop so hard that the players would get whiplash.
PhaedrusXY 11-18-07, 12:22 AM	Yeah... I lost tons of magic items to "friendly fire" in earlier editions of the game. ;)
blade265 11-18-07, 01:25 AM	What I'm asking is: if a wizard casts fireball, would the fighter's bowstring be incinerated? And would the bow catch on fire? If the cleric makes his reflex save for half damage, do his scrolls still catch on fire? Do I need to make saving throws for EVERY SINGLE combustable item on the players? I never have in the past, but I have been thinking about it, and it makes sense..... I think that you should also look at where the item's are at the time of detonation. Take the cleric for example he would have maybe 1 scroll in his hands and the rest should be tucked away, maybe in a scroll case. I think that the 1 in his hand would maybe catch fire but the rest would be protected from the blast. The same for the bow is it in his hand or in a quiver. Fireball is fairly hot, hot enough to melt gold and silver, so I suppose that everything combustible is in danger of catching fire.
strenoth 11-18-07, 12:11 PM	I think that you should also look at where the item's are at the time of detonation. Take the cleric for example he would have maybe 1 scroll in his hands and the rest should be tucked away, maybe in a scroll case. I think that the 1 in his hand would maybe catch fire but the rest would be protected from the blast. The same for the bow is it in his hand or in a quiver. Fireball is fairly hot, hot enough to melt gold and silver, so I suppose that everything combustible is in danger of catching fire. you forgot the rule already mentioned above. Attended items are NOT damaged unless the owner fails with a natural 1, and even then they get their own saving throw.
VulcanStormwrath 11-18-07, 02:29 PM	Just don't cast it in a library. Or a textile shop. Or a barn.
Radiun 11-18-07, 02:45 PM	Just don't cast it in a library. Or a textile shop. Or a barn. Unless you're destroying evidence >.>
Pitiless_Interfector 11-18-07, 06:15 PM	What happens if you cast it in a sawmill? Does the whole mill go up, like in Michael Crichton's Timeline?
VulcanStormwrath 11-18-07, 06:27 PM	What happens if you cast it in a sawmill? Does the whole mill go up, like in Michael Crichton's Timeline? Or a flour mill. Ugh.
Someone 11-19-07, 01:19 AM	Or a flour mill. Ugh.Or a cave filled with methane.
ArcTan 11-19-07, 01:33 AM	I think that you should also look at where the item's are at the time of detonation. Take the cleric for example he would have maybe 1 scroll in his hands and the rest should be tucked away, maybe in a scroll case. I think that the 1 in his hand would maybe catch fire but the rest would be protected from the blast. The same for the bow is it in his hand or in a quiver. Fireball is fairly hot, hot enough to melt gold and silver, so I suppose that everything combustible is in danger of catching fire. That would be the case, yes, if we didn't have a convenient rule simply making that impossible in most cases for the sake of the game not sucking. (And if you have a problem with the "realism" of that, try addressing the "realism" of a level 20 Fighter being impossible to kill with a mundane arrow even if it happens to pierce him in the heart first.)
ArcTan 11-19-07, 01:52 AM	So, I was thinking about the collateral damage for a Fireball spell. I know that the falme is magically created and takes a split second to arrive and dissapear. But, the book mentions that it will burn through objects if it can deal enough damage (such as a simple wooden door), so does that count all combustable objects? Yes. The SRD says that it will set all combustible objects alight - does that call for a save? Normal, unattended objects never get a save of any kind. Unattended magic items get to make a Reflex save, same as creatures. No, don't ask me how it works. It's magic. And yes, magic items somehow basically have all good saves, like Outsiders. It's actually pretty likely that a Wizard who writes a scroll and leaves it unattended is *less* likely to save against a fireball than the scroll is. (I picture this as magic somehow making the item "lucky" and having things miss it, rather than the item somehow diving out of the way.)
Legdiwena 11-19-07, 02:26 PM	IIRC, attended magic items take better of possessor or item's saves.
Jackmojo 11-19-07, 03:24 PM	No, don't ask me how it works. It's magic. And yes, magic items somehow basically have all good saves, like Outsiders. It's actually pretty likely that a Wizard who writes a scroll and leaves it unattended is *less* likely to save against a fireball than the scroll is. (I picture this as magic somehow making the item "lucky" and having things miss it, rather than the item somehow diving out of the way.) Well keep in mind its entirely invulnerable unless he happens to roll a natural 1, and then it still gets its own save... Jack Edit: I misread what you meant there, yeah it is funny that the unattended scroll is likely to be more resistant then the mage who made it.
Pitiless_Interfector 11-19-07, 07:24 PM	Well keep in mind its entirely invulnerable unless he happens to roll a natural 1, and then it still gets its own save... Jack Edit: I misread what you meant there, yeah it is funny that the unattended scroll is likely to be more resistant then the mage who made it. Yeah, it's also funny how the mage can cast elemental immunity, whereas an *unattended* scroll can't.
Suspect_Unusual 11-19-07, 07:41 PM	No, don't ask me how it works. It's magic. And yes, magic items somehow basically have all good saves, like Outsiders. It's actually pretty likely that a Wizard who writes a scroll and leaves it unattended is *less* likely to save against a fireball than the scroll is. (I picture this as magic somehow making the item "lucky" and having things miss it, rather than the item somehow diving out of the way.) Lacking a dex score, an unattended magic item will automatically have a -5 to Reflex saves, will it not? It appears to me that an unattended magic object is going to need to be at least 6th caster level before the Reflex save it gets is no longer negative.
Robotic_Christmass_Elf 11-19-07, 10:54 PM	Lacking a dex score, an unattended magic item will automatically have a -5 to Reflex saves, will it not? It appears to me that an unattended magic object is going to need to be at least 6th caster level before the Reflex save it gets is no longer negative. It's not a "base saving throw of" it's just a "saving throw of" (it specifically states that intelligent items getting they're wisdom to will saves is an exception to this rule). It's not moving or anything, it's just using it's innate magic to not get burnt, or something.
PhaedrusXY 11-19-07, 10:57 PM	no, things with a "-" ability score get no bonus or penalty.Paralyzed characters are considered to have a Dex score of 0, and get a -5 Dex mod. I am fairly certain that I've seen it stated in the rules that inanimate objects are treated in the same way, but I don't remember where it was, or care enough to look it up. :P
ArcTan 11-19-07, 11:00 PM	Nope. Sorry. These are the rules for unattended magic items' saving throws, in their entirety: Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + one-half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
Suspect_Unusual 11-19-07, 11:01 PM	Last i checked, objects are considered to have a 0 dex for AC, meaning a -5 penalty to AC. It'd be a bit wierd if the rules worked in that manner for objects, but not for reflex saves... Which doesn't mean, of course, it isn't true. :D
Robotic_Christmass_Elf 11-19-07, 11:03 PM	Paralyzed characters are considered to have a Dex score of 0, and get a -5 Dex mod. I am fairly certain that I've seen it stated in the rules that inanimate objects are treated in the same way, but I don't remember where it was, or care enough to look it up. :P Sorry for editing while you were posting, my bad :bigeyes:
Realms of Chaos 11-20-07, 12:39 AM	Wait a moment, someone will have to explain this to me as well. Let's say that fred the fighter is wearing a straw has, has a keg of ale on his back, and a couple pints of oil on his pocket. Oops, Fred is caught in a fireball. Poor Fred. Fred succeeds on a reflex save, taking a mere 30 fire damage. And yet, somehow, despite the fact that everything within a 30 foot spread took a uniform blast of flame, including Fred, neither his hat, keg, nor oil has been even scorched. The same goes for his clothes as well, which are somehow not lit on fire, even though his flesh was. Of course, this is completely ignoring the fact that Fred somehow managed to duck out of the way of a 30-foot spread fireball without jumping, falling prone, or moving even 5 feet (which really raises the question of what a successful reflex save really does), but that is a problem for another time. :D Oh, look, the wizard had another fireball prepared. Poor Fred. Fred fails of his new reflex save with a natural 2, taking a whopping 60 fire damage (Relax, folks. Fred has a high Constitution). Now, Fred has just been burnt from every possible angle in the center of a 30-foot spread of raw inferno, against which he could not even hope to move against in time. Don't worry folks. Just because Fred's wearing it, his incredibly flamable straw hat again survives, along with the many other flamable substances he's collected over his travels. How in the world could this possibly work?
ArcTan 11-20-07, 12:41 AM	Last i checked, objects are considered to have a 0 dex for AC, meaning a -5 penalty to AC. It'd be a bit wierd if the rules worked in that manner for objects, but not for reflex saves... Which doesn't mean, of course, it isn't true. :D It is true. Like I said. It's magic.
PhaedrusXY 11-20-07, 12:46 AM	How in the world could this possible work?Because the rules say it does. Just like they say that Frank the wizard could lob some bat crap at Fred and make a giant explosion.
ArcTan 11-20-07, 12:46 AM	Wait a moment, someone will have to explain this to me as well. Let's say that fred the fighter is wearing a straw has, has a keg of ale on his back, and a couple pints of oil on his pocket. Oops, Fred is caught in a fireball. Poor Fred. Fred succeeds on a reflex save, taking a mere 30 fire damage. And yet, somehow, despite the fact that everything within a 30 foot spread took a uniform blast of flame, including Fred, neither his hat, keg, nor oil has been even scorched. The same goes for his clothes as well, which are somehow not lit on fire, even though his flesh was. Of course, this is completely ignoring the fact that Fred somehow managed to duck out of the way of a 30-foot spread fireball without jumping, falling prone, or moving even 5 feet (which really raises the question of what a successful reflex save really does), but that is a problem for another time. :D How in the world could this possible work? If Fred the Fighter is level 10, there is a 0% chance that a single mundane arrow could kill him. Ever. Even if he's not wearing any armor whatsoever or anything. His high HP grant him a 100% chance of *always* being able to survive any arrow he's shot with. This does not mimic the behavior of any real person with real arrows in real life. It is strictly a game convention. As is the idea that Fred the Fighter automatically becomes this powerful after killing a sufficient number of Orcs, whether or not he's specifically training. HP, XP, saves -- they're all game conventions. They're the equivalent of cinematic "plot armor". You have to accept it to play D&D. Fred the Fighter can somehow resist being killed by a dagger even if he's completely unconscious and helpless and if you're stabbing the damn dagger right into his throat. He has enough HP that the auto-crit from a mundane dagger will *never* kill him, and he's very unlikely to fail his CDG Fort save unless he rolls a natural 1. This is really no different from his friend Rodney the Rogue's ability to avoid being hurt by a fireball even though he's just standing there. (Or, indeed, of any character to succeed at a Reflex save on a natural 20 even when unconscious and taking a -5 penalty to their base save.)
Realms of Chaos 11-20-07, 12:53 AM	Yeah, I know. I've actually played DnD for years but pointing out the gigantic holes in its logic never gets old (for me anyways). Still, I wander what a reflex save actually does? The other two saving throws are fairly intuitive but the reflex saving throw never actually implies movement in any way. Hooray for plot armor. :king:
VulcanStormwrath 11-20-07, 11:35 AM	Yeah, I know. I've actually played DnD for years but pointing out the gigantic holes in its logic never gets old (for me anyways). Still, I wander what a reflex save actually does? The other two saving throws are fairly intuitive but the reflex saving throw never actually implies movement in any way. Hooray for plot armor. :king: Holding your breath, closing your eyes and covering your haed and vitals so the fire touches the smallest possible suface area doing less damage.
Someone 11-20-07, 01:19 PM	Holding your breath, closing your eyes and covering your head and vitals so the fire touches the smallest possible suface area doing less damage.That's how I would describe a Ref save too. And I would add that it also includes sheltering whatever small vial/ bit of parchment you happen to have in your hand at the time.
Legdiwena 11-20-07, 01:29 PM	Could also be explained as finding a small safe zone within the blast.
BW0222 11-21-07, 11:16 AM	Darien_Ashoka, In practice fireball isn't that powerful. The fact that it damages objects doesn't really change this significantly. First, as others have pointed out, attended objects are rarely affected. Second, most folks carry their stuff, so typically damaging unattended objects isn't that useful. If you have a group of sleeping folks with bows next to them, yes... it could cause havock in that their bows might be destroyed even if they survived. However, most commonly, you encounter folks awake with the bows in their hands. Third, most objects which you might wish destroyed in typical adventuring typically aren't destroyed by fireballs. A door takes half damage from fire and has hardness (say 20hp, hardness 5). A fireball (10th-level) only does 35hp of damage or 17hp or 12hp against the door. Most weapons, boxes, chests, furnature, etc. happily survive a fireball. Anything metal is rarely affected at all. Standard methods -- fighter with an axe, a crowbar, etc. -- can get one through the door in about the same time. Forth, setting stuff on fire doesn't typically do much. You will of course start a fire in a stables -- but so what? It takes several minutes to do much, even folks standing in it are only taking a 1d3 damage per round (burn), and you could get the same effect (burning down the building given time) with a torch or tinderbox if you wanted to. Fifth, often you don't want to destroy unattended objective or light fires. Burning scrolls, maps, letters, spellbooks, cloaks, etc. lying around the room typically just means that you destroyed treasure, evidence, or information. Burning down the house typically means that you don't get all the treasure the BBEG had. Lighting a fire in a cavern might produce thick smoke preventing you from adventuring while the BBEG gets away. Fireballing an orc guard post at night might alert the main orc encampment miles away. Starting a forest fire to kill some goblins might get a treant to come over and explain the "No burning my forest down" rule.