Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stensler 09-20-04, 07:50 PM	Yesterday in our game session two of the party members were turned to stone by a cockatrice. The trouble started when the two surviving members went back to town to get help (ECL 3 party). They brought a cleric back some 14 miles to the site of the petrifaction. This is when I tried to figure out what spell he needed to cast, I know I should have thought about that before the 14-mile journey... Anyway I couldn't find a spell that the Cleric could cast that cures a Supernatural Petrifaction effect. It seems to me in old campaigns we would have a cleric cast Dispel magic or Break Enchantment, but the wording of those spells seems to imply that they only apply to spells and spell-like abilities. I even looked in the old 3.0 PHB and found that these spells haven't changed much. So I guess we were doing it wrong all this time, never taking the time to fully read Break Enchantment or Dispel Magic. Rather than read every spell that clerics have the option to cast I had him tell the party he could do nothing for them, after trying those two spells, and recommend a wizard they could hire to cast Stone to Flesh on them. My question is this am I right in thinking that Stone to Flesh is the only spell that can cure (SU) Petrifaction or have I missed something. Sorry for the longish rant but this episode started a little argument last night and I would like to know if I did the right thing or not.
Heron_Marked_Blade 09-20-04, 09:03 PM	From the 3.5 Player's Handbook Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect, such as flesh to stone. The cleric could have changed the petrified PCs back to normal.
Stensler 09-20-04, 11:56 PM	I have come to understand that when something is in italics in the PHB it is refering to a spell or spell-like ability. If you read further in that spell it says "For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect." A Cockatrice's Supernatural petrification ability doesn't have a caster level. No supernatural effect has an effective caster level as far as I know. Same story more or less with Dispel Magic.
Goreg Skullcrusher 09-21-04, 01:22 AM	Break Enchantment Abjuration Level: Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: Up to one creature per level, all within 30 ft. of each other Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: No This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25. If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower. If the effect comes from some permanent magic item break enchantment does not remove the curse from the item, but it does frees the victim from the item’s effects. A little something the errata team missed. The example used in the PHB is indeed Flesh to Stone. You'll note, however, that that's a 6th level spell. So yeah, ask your DM how it should actually work.
Stensler 09-21-04, 02:29 AM	Thanks for posting the whole spell, I couldn't get the SRD to load earlier. Well ok... I am the DM and the whole point of the initial post was that the petrifaction ability of the Cockatrice is not a spell or spell-like ability, it is a Supernatural ability and therefore has no caster level. I have already decided that, therefore Dispel Magic and Break Enchantment will not work to cure it. I was asking if I missed a spell that would work on it, or was I correct in thinking that only a Wiz/Sorc that can cast 6th level spells be able to cure the bite of a Cockatrice? Sorry if I was a bit ambiguous.
Mr.Waesel 09-21-04, 06:29 AM	Barring Wish and the like, yeah.
flex 09-21-04, 12:15 PM	god i hate those creatures, they did the same thing to one of my older partys after we had just killed cr 7 dragon and rested... on our way back to town we sees these cocatricies, wich should have been a very easy encounter for a lvl 5 party (4 party members, 4 cocatrice) but they turn to of us into stone the first turn with that ****, we both rolled 1 on the save as far as i remember... :(
Shadowfax7 09-21-04, 12:43 PM	As Goreg pointed out, there is definitely an error with Break Enchantment. The spell description basically states that it only works on spells with instantaneous effects (those Dispel magic can't dispel) if they are 5th level or less. However, the example given in the PHB description is of Flesh to Stone, a 6th level spell. I disagree with the ruling that a SU ability not having a caster level prohibits Break Enchantment from working on an instantaneous transmutation like the Cockatrice's petrification ability. An effect having a caster level is not a requirement for the spell to work as per the spell description. It is only used for the opposed roll. I would assign a "caster level" = to the HD of the creature (Cockatrice = 5 HD), thus the opposed roll would be against a DC of 16.
Stensler 09-21-04, 02:08 PM	I disagree with the ruling that a SU ability not having a caster level prohibits Break Enchantment from working on an instantaneous transmutation like the Cockatrice's petrification ability. An effect having a caster level is not a requirement for the spell to work as per the spell description. It is only used for the opposed roll. I would assign a "caster level" = to the HD of the creature (Cockatrice = 5 HD), thus the opposed roll would be against a DC of 16. As far as I know Supernatural abilities not haveing a caster level isn't a "ruling" on my part but an actual rule. Considering no where does it say that they have an effective caster level in any of the core books.
Stensler 09-21-04, 02:33 PM	SPECIAL ABILITIES A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature. Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are spells and magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See the table below for a summary of the types of special abilities. Table: Special Ability Types Extraordinary - Spell-Like - Supernatural Dispel No - Yes - No Spell resistance No - Yes - No Antimagic field No - Yes - Yes Attack of opportunity No - Yes - No Dispel: Can dispel magic and similar spells dispel the effects of abilities of that type? Spell Resistance: Does spell resistance protect a creature from these abilities? Antimagic Field: Does an antimagic field or similar magic suppress the ability? Attack of Opportunity: Does using the ability provoke attacks of opportunity the way that casting a spell does? I just found this in the DMG page 290. So that explains it as far as I am concerned. Only Flesh to Stone, a sixth level Wiz/sor spell, care save you from the Cockatrices bite.
Shadowfax7 09-21-04, 03:36 PM	I understand what you are saying, but a "rule" would actually be something like "SU abilities don't have caster levels" being listed in the RAW. Otherwise I would say it is a ruling based on an interpretation. I am not saying that I also am not interpreting the spell. However, the point I was making in my previous post was that an effect with a caster level is not a requirement of the spell.
Stensler 09-21-04, 04:07 PM	However, the point I was making in my previous post was that an effect with a caster level is not a requirement of the spell. Yes it is. Break Enchantment Abjuration Level: Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: Up to one creature per level, all within 30 ft. of each other Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: No This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25. If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower. If the effect comes from some permanent magic item break enchantment does not remove the curse from the item, but it does frees the victim from the item’s effects. Dispel Magic Abjuration Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells. Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect. You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell: Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect. If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature. If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this. You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself. Area Dispel: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius. For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected. For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel. For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell. For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area. If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object. You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast. Counterspell: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell. Both Dispel Magic and Break Enchantment require a caster level check against a DC that is comprised of the effective caster level of the spell or spell-like ability. And the DMG clearly states that Supernatural abilities can not be dispeled.
Shadowfax7 09-21-04, 06:53 PM	The part that you bolded only proves that Break Enchantment requires a caster level check, not that an enchentment, transmutation or curse must have a caster level to be affected by the spell. In lieu of a caster level, you either don't use one or use HD which equate to levels. Again the requirements do not state that an effect requires a caster level. Also, the part you bolded in Dispel Magic, doesn't apply to Su effects as they can't be dispelled. It only applies to spells which Break Enchantment could affect.
Stensler 09-21-04, 07:09 PM	The point I was trying to make was that neither of these spells work to cure a Cockatrice's petrification. I can't find anywhere in the books that it says to substitute HD for caster level when making a caster level check, which both spells require.
Shadowfax7 09-21-04, 08:13 PM	You wont find where it says that you replace caster level with HD, as that was my suggestion. It isn't stated in the rules. I did check the wizards.com site under Rules of the Game, but didn't see this particular subject handled (SP abilities where handled in Rules of the Game, but not SU abilities yet). However, it is normally accepted to replace level with HD where a level is required. This doesn't mean that level necessarily equates to caster level. As DM you aren't wrong, I merely disagree with your interpretation. My view is a DM interpretation as well. I do believe that Break Enchantment can affect SU effects as I have stated. I would also equate caster level to HD, but can't say that is in the rules. My second suggestion was not to use a caster level at all, since SU abilities don't have them. This would make it a DC 11 for any SU effect and goes with the interpretation that SU abilities don't have caster levels. I will actually search further as there must be something on this somewhere.
Stensler 09-21-04, 08:40 PM	I will actually search further as there must be something on this somewhere. I look foward to anything you can find.
Ghich 09-21-04, 10:24 PM	I suggest you simply change Stone to flesh from 6th level to 2nd level. The cockatrice is really a poorly designed monster in that it has a effectively lethal ability with no counter at the levels when one would be a challenge.
Stensler 09-22-04, 01:52 AM	The cockatrice is really a poorly designed monster in that it has a effectively lethal ability with no counter at the levels when one would be a challenge. That is another thing that this encounter made me think of. Cockatrice's are damn powerful! The only reason a DM would throw one of these things at a party is because a]you are one of those bad DM's who think it's funny to always be trying to kill the PC's, instead of just running a good game for them. b]you want to see how well your Players will roleplay their PC's having never seen one of the things before, and at the same time knowing that melee is the last thing they should be doing with it. c]you hate them and never, never more than one at a time.
SphericalTime 09-22-04, 02:08 AM	Look, why is this being dragged this out? The players aren't trying to heal another player, an NPC is trying to heal a player. Why can't you bump the cleric up a couple of levels till he can cast the spell. If you can't change his level, why don't you give him a scroll of whatever sixth level spell works. Or, because you obviously are extremely well versed in the rules, you should write a spell that is specifically designed to counteract the supernatural abilities of magical beasts to change characters to stone. Such a narrow focus would probably decrease the level of the spell, and your NPC characters should be able to cast it. I mean, you rule it one way, and I rule it another. I don't think that should mean you get to spend a lot of time arguing that you placed your characters in a situation that you apparently aren't willing to get them out of.
MageofMyth 09-22-04, 02:52 PM	Why did they bring a cleric, instead of a mage, back with them? The Cleric should have known that he didn't have a way of turning them back and told the party of a friendly mage that might help.
Stensler 09-22-04, 05:58 PM	Why did they bring a cleric, instead of a mage, back with them? The Cleric should have known that he didn't have a way of turning them back and told the party of a friendly mage that might help. Yes I know, I explained that it was my fault in the first post. I didn't realize that he couldn't do it until they had traveled the whole 14 miles to the statues... I realize that the NPC Cleric would have known better but I hate saying to my players things like "whoops pretend the last 6 hours of your characters lives didn't happen and you are suddenly back in town." It insults everyone’s intelligence. Really the only thing I was looking for when I posted this thread was an alternative to the 6th level wiz/sor spell Stone to Flesh (which I ended up figuring out for myself) but instead I got a lot of unfounded commentary and people trying to tell me how to run my game...
mbfu3k 09-22-04, 06:27 PM	Stone Salve: This ointment has two uses. If an ounce of it is applied to the flesh of a petrified creature, it returns the creature to flesh as the stone to flesh spell. If an ounce of it is applied to the flesh of a nonpetrified creature, it protects the creature as a stoneskin spell. Strong abjuration and transmutation; CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item, flesh to stone, stoneskin; Price 4,000 gp per ounce. Just say the cleric had dose or two of this stuff on him / her. And just hope that the player makes his Fort. save to NOT DIE. As if being turned to stone in the first place wasn't bad enough... Heaven forbid that the party wizard ever get turned to stone. StF sucks. :rant:
MageofMyth 09-22-04, 07:32 PM	If they don't know what diety the cleric worships you could give him the magic domain and some mage scrolls.
Stensler 09-22-04, 07:59 PM	I wish I had thought of some of this stuff, but even if I had I would feel silly saying "hmmm my spells aren't working... but oh wait I just happen to have this salve on me!" The cleric already took his horse back to town after telling the party of a mage school in the middle of nowhere south of where the 2 party members got pertrified. It's going to end up costing the party 900 gold for the NPC wizard to cast the spell. That is if they survive the journey without the party Barbarian and Fighter (the stone ones are the party tanks).
Heron_Marked_Blade 09-22-04, 08:37 PM	IMO (and not to criticize your DMing ability) it's more acceptable for a DM to look silly than it is for players to be punished for following the DM's clues and/or advice....particularly if the remaining players don't survive the trip to the Wizard school. If your players are cool with being sent to get help from someone who can't help them (in-game, the Cleric would probably have known he couldn't help anyone petrified by a cockatrice) and with then having to traverse deadly territory to elicit the aid of someone who can help, than that's cool. Go with it. But I'm always leery of causing PCs to suffer through unneccessarily hazardous situations due to an error on my part. Now might be a good time to fudge your rolls on the random encounter chart (perhaps give them some close escapes, if necessary for realism) in order to allow the PCs to arrive at the Wizard School safely....particularly if there was a wizard in town who could have helped them originally. All they need is to randomly run into a challenge and have this turn into a TPK. Meanwhile, the players of the petrified characters are sitting there twiddling their thumbs. All this to say that, IMO, the DM needs to be able to admit to a mistake and then fix it.
Heron_Marked_Blade 09-22-04, 08:49 PM	Incidentally, and in regard to the discussion on the cockatrice's caster level, check out the definition of "Caster Level" on p. 181, 3.5 Player's Handbook (italics mine): Caster Level: A spell's power often depends on caster level, which is defined as the caster's class level for the purpose of casting a particular spell. A creature with no classes has a caster level equal to its Hit Dice unless otherwise specified. ...
smrtgmp 09-22-04, 08:51 PM	All this to say that, IMO, the DM needs to be able to admit to a mistake and then fix it. I feel this is an integral part of DMing. Everybody makes mistakes, and in my experience people are appreciative when one is reposible enough to own up to that. That being said, I like Heron's proposed solution to this problem. Let the PC's think they are in danger, but allow them to arive at the Mage school unmolested. That way it makes things more exciting while maintaining your position as the infallible god figure of the universe. ;)
Stensler 09-22-04, 08:56 PM	Now might be a good time to fudge your rolls on the random encounter chart (perhaps give them some close escapes, if necessary for realism) in order to allow the PCs to arrive at the Wizard School safely....particularly if there was a wizard in town who could have helped them originally. All they need is to randomly run into a challenge and have this turn into a TPK. I agree completely, I would never allow a TPK as a result of my own mistake. And there wasn't an NPC wizard in town that could have helped them. In my world Wizards, Sorcerers and even some overzealous divine spell casters are feared and persecuted by the populace. That is why this particular wizard school is 50 miles from any town. They will make it there, and then be accompanied by a 15th Level Wizard for the return journey, and we can put this little episode behind us and I can start being the good and fair DM that I (usually) am. ;)
Stensler 09-22-04, 09:01 PM	Caster Level: A spell's power often depends on caster level, which is defined as the caster's class level for the purpose of casting a particular spell. A creature with no classes has a caster level equal to its Hit Dice unless otherwise specified. ... heh that resolves a lot of the previous issues we had in this thread. Theres the proof that Break Enchantment would have worked... I feel like kind of an a** now but thanks a lot for the clarification.
Shadowfax7 09-23-04, 08:12 PM	I knew I had seen that somewhere . . . to think it was in the definition of caster level. Sometimes things are located in the easiest place and you specifically look for them in the hardest places. :)
BigNastyMP 09-23-04, 09:04 PM	eh, leave your friends in their petrified state. Cast Shrink Item on them, permanently. Now, you have the start of a most excellent chess set.
Christian Landry 10-11-04, 12:47 AM	heh that resolves a lot of the previous issues we had in this thread. Theres the proof that Break Enchantment would have worked... I feel like kind of an a** now but thanks a lot for the clarification. By reading the description of break enchantment again, I can't help but notice that the effect, if it cannot be dispelled, must be of 5th level or lower. There's no easy way to determine the spell level of a Supernatural ability. As far as I know, there's no such thing. Sorry for bring up an old thread, but one of my friend's PCs was just petrified by a medusa, and I was trying to figure out if my cleric could just cast that spell to cure him. :P Edit: Oops. I posted too quickly. It seems that particular line doesn't apply, since a supernatural effect isn't a spell. D'oh.