A couple of spell questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

A couple of spell questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
melanikus
12-22-05, 08:13 AM Hiya, I just thought I'd pop a couple of questions here that have been plaguing my group for a session or two. I have tried checking the FAQ and some of the other sources available on the Wizards website, but can find no suitable answer.:

1: Dispel Magic and Counterspelling

When using Dispel Magic as a counterspell are you able to dispel instant spells such as fireball? Under the description of DM it specifically states that it cannot be used against instant spells such as fireball, but if it is used as a counterspell surely it unweaves the magic as it is cast, and therefore can effect an instant spell.

2: How does the Desecrate and Consecrate spells effect Rebuking undead? The spell descriptions only lists the effects on Turning undead. Will desecrate (as it uses negative energy as rebuke does) give a bonus to rebuking undead? And will Consecrate do the reverse?

If anyone knows if there is an official answer to these questions I would dearly like to know.

Thanks,
Chris.
Seeker95
12-22-05, 08:27 AM 1. Yes, it can counterspell instantaneous spells. Counterspelling is duration independent. Dispelling requires that there actually be a spell effect "in effect".

2. Although not explicitly stated, these spells affect all forms of turning. "Turn undead" is the generic term for both applications of this cleric ability - rebuking and turning. Apply a bonus or penalty in keeping with the stereotypical alignment categories for these abilities.
melanikus
12-22-05, 09:28 AM Thank you very much for your quick reply.

1: Excellent, I thought that this might be the case.

2: Right, so a cleric would recieve a -3 penalty to rebuking within a consecrate effect (-6 with an alter in place) and a +3 bonus to rebuking within a desecrate effect (+6 with an alter in place).

Thanks again.

Chris.
runestar
12-22-05, 11:13 AM When using Dispel Magic as a counterspell are you able to dispel instant spells such as fireball? Under the description of DM it specifically states that it cannot be used against instant spells such as fireball, but if it is used as a counterspell surely it unweaves the magic as it is cast, and therefore can effect an instant spell.

I think you are confusing countering a spell with countering a SLA. Dispel magic can be used to counter any spell, provided you successfully make the dispel check. You aren't dispelling an effect, you are unweaving the magic as it is being channelled. :)
As for SLAs, they can only be countered with dispel magic, provided said SLA can normally be dispelled. Thus, fireball as a SLA cannot be countered, since it cannot be dispelled. This is due to a specific application of dispel magic being used to dispel the spell as it is being cast.
melanikus
12-22-05, 01:11 PM Sorry, but I don't know what SLA means.

However I am refering to a situation that came up in the game where one party seeks to cast an instant spell, in this case fireball, and the other party had prepared a counterspell action and cast Dispel Magic as their counter. They passed the dispel check and the fireball was countered.

Now, dispel magic states that "Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled ..."

So the first party agued that the use of dispel magic in this case would not work, whereas the second party argued that it was used to unweave the spell as it was cast and therefore would have worked.

I hope that this makes my situation clearer.

As for the second issue, one of my players, knowing he was to be facing undead and being able to rebuke undead, wanted to know if a desecrate spell would help him or not in this situation, as it made the undead tougher. I thought that it may make rebuking easier, but neither Consecrate or Desecrate had any specific information on penalties or bonuses to rebuking.

Chris.
Dragonsblood
12-22-05, 01:35 PM Sorry, but I don't know what SLA means.

Spell Like Ability.

However I am refering to a situation that came up in the game where one party seeks to cast an instant spell, in this case fireball, and the other party had prepared a counterspell action and cast Dispel Magic as their counter. They passed the dispel check and the fireball was countered.

Now, dispel magic states that "Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled ..."

Used in this way, you are counterspelling, not dispelling. That last line was added so that munchkins don't try to use Dispel Magic to heal damage better than a cure spell, or other similar cheesy effects.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
melanikus 12-22-05, 08:13 AM	Hiya, I just thought I'd pop a couple of questions here that have been plaguing my group for a session or two. I have tried checking the FAQ and some of the other sources available on the Wizards website, but can find no suitable answer.: 1: Dispel Magic and Counterspelling When using Dispel Magic as a counterspell are you able to dispel instant spells such as fireball? Under the description of DM it specifically states that it cannot be used against instant spells such as fireball, but if it is used as a counterspell surely it unweaves the magic as it is cast, and therefore can effect an instant spell. 2: How does the Desecrate and Consecrate spells effect Rebuking undead? The spell descriptions only lists the effects on Turning undead. Will desecrate (as it uses negative energy as rebuke does) give a bonus to rebuking undead? And will Consecrate do the reverse? If anyone knows if there is an official answer to these questions I would dearly like to know. Thanks, Chris.
Seeker95 12-22-05, 08:27 AM	1. Yes, it can counterspell instantaneous spells. Counterspelling is duration independent. Dispelling requires that there actually be a spell effect "in effect". 2. Although not explicitly stated, these spells affect all forms of turning. "Turn undead" is the generic term for both applications of this cleric ability - rebuking and turning. Apply a bonus or penalty in keeping with the stereotypical alignment categories for these abilities.
melanikus 12-22-05, 09:28 AM	Thank you very much for your quick reply. 1: Excellent, I thought that this might be the case. 2: Right, so a cleric would recieve a -3 penalty to rebuking within a consecrate effect (-6 with an alter in place) and a +3 bonus to rebuking within a desecrate effect (+6 with an alter in place). Thanks again. Chris.
runestar 12-22-05, 11:13 AM	When using Dispel Magic as a counterspell are you able to dispel instant spells such as fireball? Under the description of DM it specifically states that it cannot be used against instant spells such as fireball, but if it is used as a counterspell surely it unweaves the magic as it is cast, and therefore can effect an instant spell. I think you are confusing countering a spell with countering a SLA. Dispel magic can be used to counter any spell, provided you successfully make the dispel check. You aren't dispelling an effect, you are unweaving the magic as it is being channelled. :) As for SLAs, they can only be countered with dispel magic, provided said SLA can normally be dispelled. Thus, fireball as a SLA cannot be countered, since it cannot be dispelled. This is due to a specific application of dispel magic being used to dispel the spell as it is being cast.
melanikus 12-22-05, 01:11 PM	Sorry, but I don't know what SLA means. However I am refering to a situation that came up in the game where one party seeks to cast an instant spell, in this case fireball, and the other party had prepared a counterspell action and cast Dispel Magic as their counter. They passed the dispel check and the fireball was countered. Now, dispel magic states that "Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled ..." So the first party agued that the use of dispel magic in this case would not work, whereas the second party argued that it was used to unweave the spell as it was cast and therefore would have worked. I hope that this makes my situation clearer. As for the second issue, one of my players, knowing he was to be facing undead and being able to rebuke undead, wanted to know if a desecrate spell would help him or not in this situation, as it made the undead tougher. I thought that it may make rebuking easier, but neither Consecrate or Desecrate had any specific information on penalties or bonuses to rebuking. Chris.
Dragonsblood 12-22-05, 01:35 PM	Sorry, but I don't know what SLA means. Spell Like Ability. However I am refering to a situation that came up in the game where one party seeks to cast an instant spell, in this case fireball, and the other party had prepared a counterspell action and cast Dispel Magic as their counter. They passed the dispel check and the fireball was countered. Now, dispel magic states that "Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled ..." Used in this way, you are counterspelling, not dispelling. That last line was added so that munchkins don't try to use Dispel Magic to heal damage better than a cure spell, or other similar cheesy effects.