Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Malkonnen 10-03-03, 06:03 PM	First off, can specific weapons & armor being further enchanted as per normal rules or do they have special rules of their own? In other words, if I have the Craft Arms & Armor feat and a Sword of Subtletly Sword of Subtlety: A +1 short sword with a thin, dull gray blade, this weapon provides a +4 bonus on its wielder's attack and damage rolls when he is making a sneak attack with it. how much would it cost me to upgrade it to a +2 shortsword or add a +1 special ability? I was under the impression that it would cost 3000 gp and 240 XP (the cost to upgrade a normal +1 to a +2) since the specific ability doesn't have a enhancement bonus equivalent value. But this seems to may the specific weapons & armor extremely value in the long run. It essentially allows items to technically exceed the +10 max bonus, by giving specific weapons & armor separate, specific costs. I can understand why somethings had to be separate (the items made of special materials like adamantite and mithral in particular) but for things like rhino hide or the sword of subtlety why are their powers not simply enhancement abilities like the rest? Malk [Edit accidentally used armor values for the upgrade rather than weapon, i.e. cost was 1/2 what it should have been]
kreynolds 10-03-03, 06:21 PM	Originally posted by Malkonnen First off, can specific weapons & armor being further enchanted as per normal rules... If your DM is ok with it, yes. They follow the standard rules for adding new abilities to magic items. Originally posted by Malkonnen how much would it cost me to upgrade it to a +2 shortsword or add a +1 special ability? You pay the difference in cost of the old and new item. The Sword of Subtlety is 22,310 gp. The cost of a +1 weapon enhancement bonus is 2,000 gp. Thus, everything but the +1 enhancement bonus on this sword is wroth 20,310 gp. A +2 weapon enhancement bonus is 8,000 gp. Adding that to the 20,310 gp, you get 28,310 gp. Subtracting the original value from the new, you get 6,000 gp. That's what you would pay to "upgrade" it to a +2 Sword of Subtlety. Of course, the other easy way to figure out the price difference is to just subtract the cost of a +1 weapon enhancement bonus from the cost of a +2 weapon enhancement bonus, and add that result to the rest of the sword. Originally posted by Malkonnen I was under the impression that it would cost 1,500 gp and 120 XP (the cost to upgrade a normal +1 to a +2) since the specific ability doesn't have a enhancement bonus equivalent value. Nope. Also, whether or not the other abilities have an enhancement bonus equivalent has nothing to do with it. Originally posted by Malkonnen But this seems to may the specific weapons & armor extremely value in the long run. It essentially allows items to technically exceed the +10 max bonus, by giving specific weapons & armor separate, specific costs. Not all functions of a magic item, even weapons and armor, use the "bonus" method for pricing. Originally posted by Malkonnen I can understand why somethings had to be separate (the items made of special materials like adamantite and mithral in particular) but for things like rhino hide or the sword of subtlety why are their powers not simply enhancement abilities like the rest? Cause then you couldn't make as cool stuff. :cool:
Malkonnen 10-06-03, 01:07 PM	Cause then you couldn't make as cool stuff. While I can appreciate your candor, kreynolds, I posed the question due to what i've found to be a serious oversight in game balance regarding the specific weapons/armor. IMHO, if you can improve upon specific items as normal then it makes them the best bang for you buck items in the long run in some cases by a significant margin. For example, why would any rogue not use an upgraded sword of subtlety (if he could get his hands on one of course) for the meer +20,000 gp? If on the other hand, specific items are intended not to be upgradable at all, then they come up short in most cases to customized weapons in the long run. On average a specific weapon would only be worth using for a few levels before it would become obsolete. Personally I think that the specific weapons/armor should be revised into normal special enhancements with appropriate bonus values. For most of them I don't know why they weren't done this way in the first place since most of them simply grant benefits along the same lines as other preexisting enhancements. My best guess is that it was simply to accomodate the descriptive text listed for each specific weapon (the dull gray blade, etc.).
kreynolds 10-06-03, 01:41 PM	Originally posted by Malkonnen While I can appreciate your candor, kreynolds, I posed the question due to what i've found to be a serious oversight in game balance regarding the specific weapons/armor. I know, and I was responding in such a way to illustrate that I don't see any cause for concern. Originally posted by Malkonnen IMHO, if you can improve upon specific items as normal then it makes them the best bang for you buck items in the long run in some cases by a significant margin. It doesn't matter if you use an existing item or build a new one from scratch. They cost the same. Originally posted by Malkonnen For example, why would any rogue not use an upgraded sword of subtlety (if he could get his hands on one of course) for the meer +20,000 gp? Because he'd rather use a different weapon? Originally posted by Malkonnen Personally I think that the specific weapons/armor should be revised into normal special enhancements with appropriate bonus values. You could do that, but either way, there's not much difference. It all costs money in the end. What you're talking about isn't an issue of the system being broken, but rather a _method_ of using the system that works best for you. If you want to convert the specific weapons' powers into standard weapon enhancements, feel free, but I don't see any need to do so to "fix" the system. With all that said, I should mention that I have personally converted abilities from over 30 specific weapons in the A&EG into individual weapon abilities, but I didn't price _all_ of them using straight market price bonuses. Some are priced with flat dollar amounts. Basically, I see it like this; If every single possible ability on a weapon was priced using market price bonuses, then your options in creating new weapons would be severely limited. Market price bonuses are meant to represent the functional scalability of powers on a weapon. If a power isn't very scalable, then a market price bonus isn't appropriate. In the end, it's all about personal preference, really.
Malkonnen 10-06-03, 02:26 PM	Ok, I can respect your position, kreynolds. I understand that its not a big problem for the majority of players who don't number crunch, min/max, powergame or whatever you want to call it. But as DM, I've tried my best to hunt down all the loopholes and exploitations and quash them before they can be found and abused. I posted this here on the boards to see if i was alone in thinking that specific weapons/armor weren't balanced with their normal enchanted counterparts. That is they are too cheap in the longrun and have more ultimate potential compared to standard magic weapons & armor. So far, I seem to be. :( I have another question tho, can you change a normal magic item to a specific item in the same way you add a new special ability or do specific items have to be created as such from the beginning? also, kreynolds, what kind of abilities were you referring to from the A&EG, i'm not familiar with that book. Malk
kreynolds 10-06-03, 03:20 PM	Originally posted by Malkonnen Ok, I can respect your position, kreynolds. I understand that its not a big problem for the majority of players who don't number crunch, min/max, powergame or whatever you want to call it. But as DM, I've tried my best to hunt down all the loopholes and exploitations and quash them before they can be found and abused. As a DM, I just quash power gamers. I find that much easier. :) Originally posted by Malkonnen I have another question tho, can you change a normal magic item to a specific item in the same way you add a new special ability or do specific items have to be created as such from the beginning? I'm not sure what you mean. Originally posted by Malkonnen also, kreynolds, what kind of abilities were you referring to from the A&EG, i'm not familiar with that book. The simplest example I can think of would be the Sword of Avoidance. Basically, it's a +3 weapon with a specific ability on it. Reverse engineering the price, I subtracted the cost of the +3 weapon (18,315) from the total cost (38,315), to get the price of the specific ability (20,000). The specific ability doesn't translate to any market price bonus. If you try... As +1, total +4 weapon, 32,000 - not enough As +2, total +5 weapon, 50,000 - too much. Some abilities don't fall into any market price bonus, rather they fall in between. In such cases, you have to decide 1) if you should suck up the expense, 2) if you should suck up the discount, or 3) if you should simply price it as a flat gold piece value. Most specific weapons use the third method. However, an example of a specific weapon that _can_ be translated into a market price bonus would be the Sword of Graceful Strikes, also from the A&EG. It's a +3 weapon with an additional specific ability. If you subtract the cost of the +3 weapon (18,310) from the total cost (72,310), you get 54,000 left over. However, if you figure the specific ability as a +3 bonus, you get a cost of 72,000 for a weapon with a total of +6 worth of enhancements on it. So, in this case, the specific ability could be priced as a +3 bonus, or you could just price it as a flat 54,000 gp, whichever you feel is best.
Malkonnen 10-06-03, 03:43 PM	I'm not sure what you mean. What I meant was, can you take your average everyday shortsword+1 to your wizard friend and have him upgrade it to a sword of subtlety for 20,000gp? or do specific weapons have to be made from plain old MW weapons, then they can be upgraded as normal afterwards? would it matter if the sword was already +2 or more, since it exceeds what a normal sword of subtlety has? BTW thanks for the rapid responses. :)
kreynolds 10-06-03, 03:46 PM	Originally posted by Malkonnen What I meant was, can you take your average everyday shortsword+1 to your wizard friend and have him upgrade it to a sword of subtlety for 20,000gp? If the DM allows it, I don't see why not. There's nothing to suggest such a thing is impossible. But, as a new item, it would require approval from your DM. Originally posted by Malkonnen or do specific weapons have to be made from plain old MW weapons, then they can be upgraded as normal afterwards? I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but the weapon always has to be +1 first. Originally posted by Malkonnen would it matter if the sword was already +2 or more, since it exceeds what a normal sword of subtlety has? Nope. Again, your DM would need to approve it though.