A curious divination [Archive] - Wizards Community

A curious divination [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Norseman
12-03-04, 12:44 AM I've given my players a quest; to find some cultists before their Epic leader develops an armageddon spell (we don't know what it does yet, but it's not good). I told them the spell would probably take a long time to develop (on the order of months) and that the last known location of the leader (as per a few divinations by the group's wizard) was a particular metropolis. A lawful good metropolis.

My players tried at first going to the rulers of the city and asking them to rally up the garrison and the militia and search every nook and cranny to find the people and I decided (because that would make things too easy) that the city had a law about not infringing upon the privacy of its citizens, and that without good reason to suspect a house was holding a criminal, they would not be able to search it. So the leaders said they'd keep their eye out but couldn't help much.

Now the wizard in my group has noticed that his divinations aren't revealing anything anymore. So he got an idea. Make a divination which makes everything that it can affect invisible to the caster's eye, except for anything the caster holds (like a map of the city). Obviously, this would make it possible to locate the outer edge of anything that blocks divinations, and would make finding the cultists a very very easy task.

Now under normal circumstances this spell is almost useless, it's extremely specialized to do almost nothing, so I'm wondering if I should let him do it or not? They still have an Epic spellcaster to defeat, and plenty of cultists, so there will be no shortage of a challenge, but it still seems too easy. Also, what level should he make the spell? He's presently level 15 and I think if he wants to make them so easy to find, it should be harder to fight them because he's short on high-end spells, but it doesn't seem right to make such a weak spell take so much to cast.

What should I do?
Dalton Onestone
12-03-04, 01:05 AM Why can't you just limit its range and duration? It seems as if he wants to equate the map of the city to the city. Absent that, the spell isn't necessarily overpowered.

Letting him substitute the map for the real thing should be very costly.

What's more -- since when did casting Invisibility on a door, for instance, let you see through the door into the other room? You seem to be assuming that too. (Actually, if it DOES do that, it's a pretty cool effect ...)

And for that matter -- how do we know that the scrying shields on the bad guy's rooms keep them from being turned invisibile?
SphericalTime
12-03-04, 01:08 AM He's a wizard, it's not filling an all important spells known slot. I'd allow him to do it based on the creativity alone, and it'd make it a 5th or 6th level spell, just because it feels about right.
Norseman
12-03-04, 01:13 AM Why can't you just limit its range and duration? It seems as if he wants to equate the map of the city to the city. Absent that, the spell isn't necessarily overpowered.

Letting him substitute the map for the real thing should be very costly.

What's more -- since when did casting Invisibility on a door, for instance, let you see through the door into the other room? You seem to be assuming that too. (Actually, if it DOES do that, it's a pretty cool effect ...)

And for that matter -- how do we know that the scrying shields on the bad guy's rooms keep them from being turned invisibile?

Because anything which blocks divinations doesn't go invisible for him. In the case of that door, both the door and the rest of the room go invisible unless there's something present which blocks divinations. If it does, the invisibility stops at the edge of that effect, and whatever is inside that area is easily noticeable. In effect he'd see a big empty globe except for anything which is anti-divination, which would stick out like a sore thumb.
SphericalTime
12-03-04, 01:13 AM What's more -- since when did casting Invisibility on a door, for instance, let you see through the door into the other room? You seem to be assuming that too. (Actually, if it DOES do that, it's a pretty cool effect ...)

And for that matter -- how do we know that the scrying shields on the bad guy's rooms keep them from being turned invisibile?Well, I don't think this is actually an invisibility spell, but rather it's a divination (it's cast on you, and allows you to perceive things as invisible to you.

And your last point doesn't seem to matter, because if they block divination spells they can walk around until they find a place that they can see (because the divination spell is being blocked), which is the point.

EDIT: Wow, I keep being way behind. I'll be quiet now.
Keenath
12-03-04, 11:11 AM I rather like this idea. They used a similar trick in the novel "Silver Gryphon" to find an area where the magic was being consumed -- they plotted on a map all the places the divination vanished, which provided a rough search area.

As for your player....
First, I assume you didn't mean to say he sees invisible things, but rather, he can spot areas of the city where divination spells bounce off. It's like sending out a Locate Object spell to everything in the city, and checking where it DIDN'T come back.

I can see two problems with that method. First, that would take an enormous amount of power. I'd suggest, rather than letting him create a spell, that he has to construct a ritual, or "Incantation" (see Unearthed Arcana, D20 Modern Urban Arcana, or the Urban Arcana SRD on Incantations HERE (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaIncantations.rtf).) This would be appropriate for a spell that requires a large expenditure of energy and time, but whose actual spellcasting requirements are not so overwhelming. I would say part of the incantation would involve a very detailed map or model of the city, which you run some sensor over (a pendulum, beam of light, stream of sand or water, etc), and whose movement would indicate the 'dead zone' -- by pushing away and refusing to fall in that area, for instance.

Second issue: While this technique might work against Nondetection, I'm not sure it would have any affect against Misdirection, which just makes you scan the same area twice.
Keenath
12-03-04, 11:43 AM In fact, on further reflection, this may be a perfect way to deal with the player's idea. Allow the player to build his incantation of hideout finding, and let him execute the idea. If and when he succeeds, they move in on the evil guy's lair. They find it hastily abandoned -- the bad guy probably had some sort of divination detector, which should've been silent inside a huge nondetection field, so when it went off, he grabbed what he could and ran. And of course, he left behind something critical (such as a cog that he needs for his Evil Machine (TM), something of great value (such as a couple minor magic items or jewels), or something the PCs can use as a clue to find his new hideout (such as a note with three numbers on it, or a name, or whatnot). Or any combination of the above. Some magic items and XP would be nice, as a reward for messing up the guy's plan. :D

You've got a creative PC there -- encourage it!
Kyy'Dakh
12-03-04, 12:01 PM That last suggestion sounds good to me. Maybe he could also leave something behind to cause a bit of trouble, like a monster/construct/undead, whatever fits his flavor. Maybe some object that triggers a Summon Monster spell when the PCs get to it.
SphericalTime
12-03-04, 01:05 PM I rather like this idea. They used a similar trick in the novel "Silver Gryphon" to find an area where the magic was being consumed -- they plotted on a map all the places the divination vanished, which provided a rough search area.Actually, it also appeared almost by accident five years earlier in Searching for Dragons (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0152045651/qid=1102097023/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-4359947-7539217?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Wrede. That was a good series.

They find it hastily abandoned -- the bad guy probably had some sort of divination detector, which should've been silent inside a huge nondetection field, so when it went off, he grabbed what he could and ran.I don't understand, why would the divination detector go off inside the nondetection field? The divination spell still wouldn't penetrate it. I can't imagine that he doesn't have other defense, but I don't think a divination detector (it would have to be a divination tool, and therefore moot in the nondetection field anyway) makes sense.
PhaedrusXY
12-03-04, 03:38 PM The idea is basically to try Scrying (or divining in some way) every location in the city, and mapping those that block you. Correct? I agree that this would take an enormous amount of either magical energy and/or time.

If you made one spell to do it all at once, it should be a tremendous ordeal that is a very high level spell with a hefty XP cost, or a ritual, or maybe even an Epic spell.

You could instead literally go around the city with some low level detect spell or other (maybe even make a silly one that should work on every building in town, like Detect Wood) and try Divining or Scrying them all individually. This would take more time, but alot less magical energy, and hence it would be a much lower level spell.

You could also do something in between these two, such as make a spell that "scans" a large area, but not an entire city. Then you could just use it a few times to cover everything.

It's certainly an interesting idea, and I think he should be able to do it in some form or other. Does this remind anyone else of doing a Ping or Traceroute command? :D
Felonious Monk
12-03-04, 03:46 PM So the player wants Detect Everything. Typical...

The incantation sounds about right; otherwise the best thing to do would be get a wand of Detect Magic, have a party member walk 30' in front of him with a Quaal's Feather Token, and run around the city saying, "Can you hear me now? Rats!"
spasheridan
12-03-04, 04:17 PM I think the spell is fairly reasonable. I would change it slightly though. Say like True Seeing.

Range: Long
Duration: 10 min/level (d)
Effect: Divines possibility of divining the nature of objects in range. Objects that could be divined "glow". Any object or area that is protected from detection spells will not glow.

The result is similar but requires the party to walk around and check stuff out instead of getting an "all seeing eye".

Another way around an aurau of non-divination is to divine about specific areas. "If I walk into the house on Baker street what will I find inside". If the house on baker street is protected then the spell will fail. Kind of proving a negative thing but would definitly take longer than a divination blocking detection spell.
SphericalTime
12-03-04, 04:38 PM Effect: Divines possibility of divining the nature of objects in range. Objects that could be divined "glow". Any object or area that is protected from detection spells will not glow.Or you could say: The caster of the spell sees all objects inside the radius of the spell as glowing.

Since it's a divination, and divinations fail in the nondetection field, you don't have to worry about specifying that the spell doesn't make objects protected by the non-detection field not glow.

Unfortunately, in that case, if the BBEG in the nondetection field has put the field just inside a building, the building will still glow, foiling the adventurers.
alecthemad
12-03-04, 04:39 PM Realistically speaking (for the campaign world) how many people might be interested in privacy against scrying?

Even good clerics would want to avoid the scrying of evil foes. Same with city officials maybe. The amount of locations that are somehow protected from scrying in a large city in a magical realm could be quite significant. And after all whose to say that his layer is not underneath the good temple or the mayor's house?

You could distract them with a few well developed thieves dens, other generic evil wizards. Make it a fun thing instead of a frustrating thing. Let the baby have his milk and then play it out to its conclusion.
Dalton Onestone
12-04-04, 12:34 AM Because anything which blocks divinations doesn't go invisible for him. In the case of that door, both the door and the rest of the room go invisible unless there's something present which blocks divinations. If it does, the invisibility stops at the edge of that effect, and whatever is inside that area is easily noticeable. In effect he'd see a big empty globe except for anything which is anti-divination, which would stick out like a sore thumb.

My point, better expressed by other folks in this thread, is that he's asking for a whole lot of unusual effects, so you're entitled to make the spell as limited or costly as you choose.
Keenath
12-04-04, 02:29 AM I don't understand, why would the divination detector go off inside the nondetection field? The divination spell still wouldn't penetrate it. I can't imagine that he doesn't have other defense, but I don't think a divination detector (it would have to be a divination tool, and therefore moot in the nondetection field anyway) makes sense.
Um... er... LOOK! A three-headed monkey! <runs away>

I swear, it made sense when I thought of it at work. Bleh.

Let me see... If the officials are in on it, you could have a bribery/blackmail situation, with an official tipping off the bad guy. Orrrr, if the BBEG is high enough level, he uses Time Stop when the good guys enter, and uses the half-minute or so to grab his important documents and teleport away. Or perhaps there is no real explanation given, but somehow he knew they were coming, and the room just shows signs of a hasty retreat.
[GSV] Kirstar
12-04-04, 06:20 AM look at the spell discern location.
SphericalTime
12-05-04, 01:44 PM Well, I looked at discern location.

Perhaps the party doesn't have 8th level spells available to them.

Perhaps their enemy used a wish spell, which is not short of a mindblank spell and therefore relavent to the discern location description. If he wants to be clever about it he can simply rename the place where he lives "nowhere." That adequately stumps the discern location spell.

Or perhaps the PC's have never seen the BBEG, which also stumps the discern location spell.
[GSV] Kirstar
12-06-04, 06:22 PM i meant use it as a guideline for anyother spell you make
SphericalTime
12-06-04, 08:19 PM Kirstar']i meant use it as a guideline for anyother spell you makeOh, never mind then.

I'm still just a little surprised that you can . . . uh, damage . . . the ability of discern location to find you by renaming your building and street names.
Ghich
12-07-04, 01:04 AM Locate Object would be a good spell to base this on. Instead of locating an object have it locate an area shielded from divination. This would cover large areas of the city at once but not tell them exactly where the lair is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Norseman 12-03-04, 12:44 AM	I've given my players a quest; to find some cultists before their Epic leader develops an armageddon spell (we don't know what it does yet, but it's not good). I told them the spell would probably take a long time to develop (on the order of months) and that the last known location of the leader (as per a few divinations by the group's wizard) was a particular metropolis. A lawful good metropolis. My players tried at first going to the rulers of the city and asking them to rally up the garrison and the militia and search every nook and cranny to find the people and I decided (because that would make things too easy) that the city had a law about not infringing upon the privacy of its citizens, and that without good reason to suspect a house was holding a criminal, they would not be able to search it. So the leaders said they'd keep their eye out but couldn't help much. Now the wizard in my group has noticed that his divinations aren't revealing anything anymore. So he got an idea. Make a divination which makes everything that it can affect invisible to the caster's eye, except for anything the caster holds (like a map of the city). Obviously, this would make it possible to locate the outer edge of anything that blocks divinations, and would make finding the cultists a very very easy task. Now under normal circumstances this spell is almost useless, it's extremely specialized to do almost nothing, so I'm wondering if I should let him do it or not? They still have an Epic spellcaster to defeat, and plenty of cultists, so there will be no shortage of a challenge, but it still seems too easy. Also, what level should he make the spell? He's presently level 15 and I think if he wants to make them so easy to find, it should be harder to fight them because he's short on high-end spells, but it doesn't seem right to make such a weak spell take so much to cast. What should I do?
Dalton Onestone 12-03-04, 01:05 AM	Why can't you just limit its range and duration? It seems as if he wants to equate the map of the city to the city. Absent that, the spell isn't necessarily overpowered. Letting him substitute the map for the real thing should be very costly. What's more -- since when did casting Invisibility on a door, for instance, let you see through the door into the other room? You seem to be assuming that too. (Actually, if it DOES do that, it's a pretty cool effect ...) And for that matter -- how do we know that the scrying shields on the bad guy's rooms keep them from being turned invisibile?
SphericalTime 12-03-04, 01:08 AM	He's a wizard, it's not filling an all important spells known slot. I'd allow him to do it based on the creativity alone, and it'd make it a 5th or 6th level spell, just because it feels about right.
Norseman 12-03-04, 01:13 AM	Why can't you just limit its range and duration? It seems as if he wants to equate the map of the city to the city. Absent that, the spell isn't necessarily overpowered. Letting him substitute the map for the real thing should be very costly. What's more -- since when did casting Invisibility on a door, for instance, let you see through the door into the other room? You seem to be assuming that too. (Actually, if it DOES do that, it's a pretty cool effect ...) And for that matter -- how do we know that the scrying shields on the bad guy's rooms keep them from being turned invisibile? Because anything which blocks divinations doesn't go invisible for him. In the case of that door, both the door and the rest of the room go invisible unless there's something present which blocks divinations. If it does, the invisibility stops at the edge of that effect, and whatever is inside that area is easily noticeable. In effect he'd see a big empty globe except for anything which is anti-divination, which would stick out like a sore thumb.
SphericalTime 12-03-04, 01:13 AM	What's more -- since when did casting Invisibility on a door, for instance, let you see through the door into the other room? You seem to be assuming that too. (Actually, if it DOES do that, it's a pretty cool effect ...) And for that matter -- how do we know that the scrying shields on the bad guy's rooms keep them from being turned invisibile?Well, I don't think this is actually an invisibility spell, but rather it's a divination (it's cast on you, and allows you to perceive things as invisible to you. And your last point doesn't seem to matter, because if they block divination spells they can walk around until they find a place that they can see (because the divination spell is being blocked), which is the point. EDIT: Wow, I keep being way behind. I'll be quiet now.
Keenath 12-03-04, 11:11 AM	I rather like this idea. They used a similar trick in the novel "Silver Gryphon" to find an area where the magic was being consumed -- they plotted on a map all the places the divination vanished, which provided a rough search area. As for your player.... First, I assume you didn't mean to say he sees invisible things, but rather, he can spot areas of the city where divination spells bounce off. It's like sending out a Locate Object spell to everything in the city, and checking where it DIDN'T come back. I can see two problems with that method. First, that would take an enormous amount of power. I'd suggest, rather than letting him create a spell, that he has to construct a ritual, or "Incantation" (see Unearthed Arcana, D20 Modern Urban Arcana, or the Urban Arcana SRD on Incantations HERE (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaIncantations.rtf).) This would be appropriate for a spell that requires a large expenditure of energy and time, but whose actual spellcasting requirements are not so overwhelming. I would say part of the incantation would involve a very detailed map or model of the city, which you run some sensor over (a pendulum, beam of light, stream of sand or water, etc), and whose movement would indicate the 'dead zone' -- by pushing away and refusing to fall in that area, for instance. Second issue: While this technique might work against Nondetection, I'm not sure it would have any affect against Misdirection, which just makes you scan the same area twice.
Keenath 12-03-04, 11:43 AM	In fact, on further reflection, this may be a perfect way to deal with the player's idea. Allow the player to build his incantation of hideout finding, and let him execute the idea. If and when he succeeds, they move in on the evil guy's lair. They find it hastily abandoned -- the bad guy probably had some sort of divination detector, which should've been silent inside a huge nondetection field, so when it went off, he grabbed what he could and ran. And of course, he left behind something critical (such as a cog that he needs for his Evil Machine (TM), something of great value (such as a couple minor magic items or jewels), or something the PCs can use as a clue to find his new hideout (such as a note with three numbers on it, or a name, or whatnot). Or any combination of the above. Some magic items and XP would be nice, as a reward for messing up the guy's plan. :D You've got a creative PC there -- encourage it!
Kyy'Dakh 12-03-04, 12:01 PM	That last suggestion sounds good to me. Maybe he could also leave something behind to cause a bit of trouble, like a monster/construct/undead, whatever fits his flavor. Maybe some object that triggers a Summon Monster spell when the PCs get to it.
SphericalTime 12-03-04, 01:05 PM	I rather like this idea. They used a similar trick in the novel "Silver Gryphon" to find an area where the magic was being consumed -- they plotted on a map all the places the divination vanished, which provided a rough search area.Actually, it also appeared almost by accident five years earlier in Searching for Dragons (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0152045651/qid=1102097023/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-4359947-7539217?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Wrede. That was a good series. They find it hastily abandoned -- the bad guy probably had some sort of divination detector, which should've been silent inside a huge nondetection field, so when it went off, he grabbed what he could and ran.I don't understand, why would the divination detector go off inside the nondetection field? The divination spell still wouldn't penetrate it. I can't imagine that he doesn't have other defense, but I don't think a divination detector (it would have to be a divination tool, and therefore moot in the nondetection field anyway) makes sense.
PhaedrusXY 12-03-04, 03:38 PM	The idea is basically to try Scrying (or divining in some way) every location in the city, and mapping those that block you. Correct? I agree that this would take an enormous amount of either magical energy and/or time. If you made one spell to do it all at once, it should be a tremendous ordeal that is a very high level spell with a hefty XP cost, or a ritual, or maybe even an Epic spell. You could instead literally go around the city with some low level detect spell or other (maybe even make a silly one that should work on every building in town, like Detect Wood) and try Divining or Scrying them all individually. This would take more time, but alot less magical energy, and hence it would be a much lower level spell. You could also do something in between these two, such as make a spell that "scans" a large area, but not an entire city. Then you could just use it a few times to cover everything. It's certainly an interesting idea, and I think he should be able to do it in some form or other. Does this remind anyone else of doing a Ping or Traceroute command? :D
Felonious Monk 12-03-04, 03:46 PM	So the player wants Detect Everything. Typical... The incantation sounds about right; otherwise the best thing to do would be get a wand of Detect Magic, have a party member walk 30' in front of him with a Quaal's Feather Token, and run around the city saying, "Can you hear me now? Rats!"
spasheridan 12-03-04, 04:17 PM	I think the spell is fairly reasonable. I would change it slightly though. Say like True Seeing. Range: Long Duration: 10 min/level (d) Effect: Divines possibility of divining the nature of objects in range. Objects that could be divined "glow". Any object or area that is protected from detection spells will not glow. The result is similar but requires the party to walk around and check stuff out instead of getting an "all seeing eye". Another way around an aurau of non-divination is to divine about specific areas. "If I walk into the house on Baker street what will I find inside". If the house on baker street is protected then the spell will fail. Kind of proving a negative thing but would definitly take longer than a divination blocking detection spell.
SphericalTime 12-03-04, 04:38 PM	Effect: Divines possibility of divining the nature of objects in range. Objects that could be divined "glow". Any object or area that is protected from detection spells will not glow.Or you could say: The caster of the spell sees all objects inside the radius of the spell as glowing. Since it's a divination, and divinations fail in the nondetection field, you don't have to worry about specifying that the spell doesn't make objects protected by the non-detection field not glow. Unfortunately, in that case, if the BBEG in the nondetection field has put the field just inside a building, the building will still glow, foiling the adventurers.
alecthemad 12-03-04, 04:39 PM	Realistically speaking (for the campaign world) how many people might be interested in privacy against scrying? Even good clerics would want to avoid the scrying of evil foes. Same with city officials maybe. The amount of locations that are somehow protected from scrying in a large city in a magical realm could be quite significant. And after all whose to say that his layer is not underneath the good temple or the mayor's house? You could distract them with a few well developed thieves dens, other generic evil wizards. Make it a fun thing instead of a frustrating thing. Let the baby have his milk and then play it out to its conclusion.
Dalton Onestone 12-04-04, 12:34 AM	Because anything which blocks divinations doesn't go invisible for him. In the case of that door, both the door and the rest of the room go invisible unless there's something present which blocks divinations. If it does, the invisibility stops at the edge of that effect, and whatever is inside that area is easily noticeable. In effect he'd see a big empty globe except for anything which is anti-divination, which would stick out like a sore thumb. My point, better expressed by other folks in this thread, is that he's asking for a whole lot of unusual effects, so you're entitled to make the spell as limited or costly as you choose.
Keenath 12-04-04, 02:29 AM	I don't understand, why would the divination detector go off inside the nondetection field? The divination spell still wouldn't penetrate it. I can't imagine that he doesn't have other defense, but I don't think a divination detector (it would have to be a divination tool, and therefore moot in the nondetection field anyway) makes sense. Um... er... LOOK! A three-headed monkey! <runs away> I swear, it made sense when I thought of it at work. Bleh. Let me see... If the officials are in on it, you could have a bribery/blackmail situation, with an official tipping off the bad guy. Orrrr, if the BBEG is high enough level, he uses Time Stop when the good guys enter, and uses the half-minute or so to grab his important documents and teleport away. Or perhaps there is no real explanation given, but somehow he knew they were coming, and the room just shows signs of a hasty retreat.
[GSV] Kirstar 12-04-04, 06:20 AM	look at the spell discern location.
SphericalTime 12-05-04, 01:44 PM	Well, I looked at discern location. Perhaps the party doesn't have 8th level spells available to them. Perhaps their enemy used a wish spell, which is not short of a mindblank spell and therefore relavent to the discern location description. If he wants to be clever about it he can simply rename the place where he lives "nowhere." That adequately stumps the discern location spell. Or perhaps the PC's have never seen the BBEG, which also stumps the discern location spell.
[GSV] Kirstar 12-06-04, 06:22 PM	i meant use it as a guideline for anyother spell you make
SphericalTime 12-06-04, 08:19 PM	Kirstar']i meant use it as a guideline for anyother spell you makeOh, never mind then. I'm still just a little surprised that you can . . . uh, damage . . . the ability of discern location to find you by renaming your building and street names.
Ghich 12-07-04, 01:04 AM	Locate Object would be a good spell to base this on. Instead of locating an object have it locate an area shielded from divination. This would cover large areas of the city at once but not tell them exactly where the lair is.