Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cthulhu42 04-07-04, 02:22 AM	Ok, heres the deal: Currently my party is holed up in a diamond mine with a little bit of time to kill. The walls of the mine contain diamonds, but we have no way to get them out short of digging, which we really don't have the time, tools or man power to do. My character is a 13th level wizard, we also have a 13th level cleric with us, as well as a 12th level sorcerer. My first thought was to summon a couple of big earth elementals to go in and get the diamonds, but our DM ruled that that wouldn't work since when they move through stone they sort of become part of it, and can't just scoop whatever they want to out of it. OK, makes sense to me. My second idea was Transmute Rock to Mud, figureing I'd turn a huge section of the mine into mud, after which it would just be a matter of sifting through it for the diamonds. But this brought up the question: Is a diamond considered rock? The spell does state that it turns any unworked stone/rock into mud, and these diamonds are certainly unworked. Still, it seems a bit powerful to me to allow a 5th level spell to melt diamonds into mud. In the end (after looking up "diamond" and "rock" in the dictionary, plus about 30 minutes of discussion) she ruled that the spell would indeed transmute even unworked diamonds into mud. However, she agreed that I should post this question here and would be just as interested as I in any light shed by the experts. So what do you think? On a further note, I've also thought about Stone to Flesh. A bit more icky, and not as big an area of effect, and then theres still the question of, will the diamonds simply be turned to flesh as well? Theres got to be a way to get at these bloody diamonds! Help!
Sheer_FALACY 04-07-04, 02:26 AM	I think that the easiest solution would be an adamantine light pick. You could carve the rock off like a hot knife through butter. Depending on how high the DM rules the hardness of the diamonds to be, you could just have the wizard do it, confident that they can only damage the rock and not the diamond.
lanilifar 04-07-04, 02:44 AM	My first thought was to summon a couple of big earth elementals to go in and get the diamonds, but our DM ruled that that wouldn't work since when they move through stone they sort of become part of it, and can't just scoop whatever they want to out of it. Try a Xorn instead (although an earth elemental really out to be able to do it as well, but your DM is always right).
Orcish Fury 04-07-04, 02:45 AM	Technically, all precious gems are rocks. However, I think the designers had "regular" rock in mind when they made the spell.
Lina_Inverse 04-07-04, 03:07 AM	you have a cleric,blow a few stone shapes.
Lord Nat 04-07-04, 03:25 AM	ok I see 3 things that are bad about rock to mud in somthing like this. 1. if you take out a good chunk of the mine with out setting up rails you have a really good chance of a cave in. 2. Mud is not a good thing in a mine. if you have a lot of it you might make some kind of blast from the gases it gives off. 3. Gases in the cave walls. Hit the wrong place and BAM all PCs dead as dust. Being into Urban Exploration can really pay off at times like this. I know a lot about going into caves ^_^
was_fired 04-07-04, 03:52 AM	I would assume it isn't a rock since rocks for the most part seem to be associated with metals of some sort or some general mix of elements arranged in a semi-regular structure while diamond is a pure carbon crystal in theory at least.
[GSV] Kirstar 04-07-04, 04:12 AM	I would consider gemstones as crystals. as such when you cast rock to mud you would have mud + gemstones. you shovel the mud out, wash away the deiment to find the gemstones left over. in a magical world this the probably the way all gems are mined. Transmute Rock to Mud Transmutation [Earth] Level: Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Area: Up to two 10-ft. cubes/level (S) Duration: Permanent; see text Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: No This spell turns natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of mud. Magical stone is not affected by the spell. The depth of the mud created cannot exceed 10 feet. A creature unable to levitate, fly, or otherwise free itself from the mud sinks until hip- or chest-deep, reducing its speed to 5 feet and causing a –2 penalty on attack rolls and AC. Brush thrown atop the mud can support creatures able to climb on top of it. Creatures large enough to walk on the bottom can wade through the area at a speed of 5 feet. If transmute rock to mud is cast upon the ceiling of a cavern or tunnel, the mud falls to the floor and spreads out in a pool at a depth of 5 feet. The falling mud and the ensuing cave-in deal 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage to anyone caught directly beneath the area, or half damage to those who succeed on Reflex saves. Castles and large stone buildings are generally immune to the effect of the spell, since transmute rock to mud can’t affect worked stone and doesn’t reach deep enough to undermine such buildings’ foundations. However, small buildings or structures often rest upon foundations shallow enough to be damaged or even partially toppled by this spell. The mud remains until a successful dispel magic or transmute mud to rock spell restores its substance—but not necessarily its form. Evaporation turns the mud to normal dirt over a period of days. The exact time depends on exposure to the sun, wind, and normal drainage. Arcane Material Component: Clay and water. You do get a cave in. personnaly I would allow miners to reinforce the area to help prevent this.
Heron_Marked_Blade 04-07-04, 08:12 AM	I'd go with was_fired's answer. I would consider gems (particularly in D&D) to be enough like crystals that they're not affected by spells that destroy stone.
Zherog 04-07-04, 10:14 AM	I would also rule that precious gems were not stone for the purposes of this spell. However, as Lina_Inverse suggested, Stone Shape may be your best answer.
tarkin 04-07-04, 11:28 AM	The correct Spell to use is FABRICATE You have the diamonds there, they are the material used. Just make a diamond rimmed mud bowl. P.S. Your DM is always right, even when he is wrong. Officially Earth Elementals flow through earth,mud, stone like it was water. As such, I would rule that they can collect the diamonds slightly easier than you could, just as a man in an ocean of water with some bubbles of alcohol could collect the bubbles of alcohol.
Shadowfax7 04-07-04, 11:41 AM	I am going to throw my lot in with the posters that say. . . diamonds are gems, not rock for purposes of the Turn Rock to Mud spell at least.
Vorpal Warhammer 04-07-04, 12:27 PM	If you treat gemstones as rocks, then Transmute Mud to Rock would turn diamond goo back into a solid sheet of diamond. That's got to be worth more than the diamonds would be by themselves. Does your DM really want to give you the ability to make gem-alloys? How much would a 10 pound diamerald or sapphuby be worth?
ehrin 04-07-04, 01:08 PM	from a purely geologic and physical chemistry standpoint, one should consider diamonds to be NOT rocks. They share almost NOTHING in common with rocks. Diamonds are carbon, almost pure. rocks are generally silica based, with potash, calcium, olivine, etc. (inorganic materials) mixed in. One could assume that transmute Rock to Mud magically affects the inorganic structure of the bonds. As such, it would NOT affect diamonds, since there are no inorganic bonds there. However, it would affect practically every other gemstone (topaz, corundum, beryl, etc.). Now, flesh to stone is an interesting spell... since it bridges the gap between carbon based chemistry and silica based chemistry.
Bedevere 04-07-04, 01:36 PM	Even if the Diamonds were considered rocks, which I personally do not think they should be, note the sentance in the spell description above that specifies it will not work on magical minerals. Simply cast a cantrip on a few of them, and work all the rock around it, safe in the knowledge that while under the effects of a spell, it is a magic rock. :D Failing this, cast shatter at the wall. Rock should not take damage, but the diamonds will. The shards of diamond fall out the wall, at which point you cast a mend spell on them. Easy, hey? As for your stone to flesh idea, even if the diamonds are turned to flesh, you can mine the area around where they were, giving you a diamond partially encased in rock once the spell is lifted. A few diamonds encased in stone can be put into your backpack, unlike an entire wall.
TheGogmagog 04-07-04, 02:16 PM	I would put my 2cp on gems not being stone. They are more crystal or mineral. Stone is general, but if you were to rule precious gems and minerals to be 'Stone' prepare for some 'mud to stone' abuse.
Hot Rod 04-07-04, 02:24 PM	Tarkin is correct about fabricate, it could bring all the diamonds within a 10 cu ft area per level to the surface, in the form of a diamond studded stone bowl. Another option, (If the DM won't allow that) just fabricate the volume into bricks, remove them, examining each for diamonds. (break as needed)
hecate 04-07-04, 02:37 PM	from a purely geologic and physical chemistry standpoint, one should consider diamonds to be NOT rocks. They share almost NOTHING in common with rocks. This is not true. Both rocks and diamonds share many of the same elemental and base qualities: crytalline structure, both inorganic, and while diamonds are carbon, a lot of crystalline (rocks) contain carbon as well. rocks are generally silica based, with potash, calcium, olivine, etc. (inorganic materials) mixed in. One could assume that transmute Rock to Mud magically affects the inorganic structure of the bonds. As such, it would NOT affect diamonds, since there are no inorganic bonds there. However, it would affect practically every other gemstone (topaz, corundum, beryl, etc.). Now, flesh to stone is an interesting spell... since it bridges the gap between carbon based chemistry and silica based chemistry. I do not know what you mean by "no inorganic bonds," nor do I completely understand your division between silica-based and carbon-based structures. Simply because something is carbon-based does not make it organic. Carbon, nor any other element, is in and of itself organic. It is simply an element.
fiskpaj 04-07-04, 02:42 PM	Diamonds are very hard, and should become normal rock when targeted by a Transmute rock to mud spell, imho. You get a big lake of mud, with some stones in it. Then you take the stones, cast mud to rock, tada! Diamonds! But thats just my opinion.
ThePo 04-07-04, 03:05 PM	I vote for diamonds seperate than rocks.
cthulhu42 04-07-04, 04:32 PM	Very interesting replies. Keep the votes comeing! Maybe we can sway my DM. :D It does seem to me that allowng Rock to Mud to turn diamonds into mud would have more potental for abuse than vice versa.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-07-04, 04:38 PM	I think that if the PCs can come up with something like that, then so be it. I would have gone with earth elementals, but they would probably have charged them. "Sure, we'll get them out if you let us keep half."
Greenintern 04-07-04, 04:53 PM	When the spell was created, the "stone" in the description most likely is referring to stone; i.e. granite, slate, etc. I would rule that the diamonds would come out intact in the mud. If you treat gemstones as rocks, then Transmute Mud to Rock would turn diamond goo back into a solid sheet of diamond. That's got to be worth more than the diamonds would be by themselves Precious gems are usually graded on their purity and shape, so there is a fair chance that the sheet of diamond, although impressive, would not be as useful. On a side note, it also might not be as strong, because the crystalline structure of a diamond is precisely why it is so strong. As a sheet, the structure wouldn't be as uniform, hence theweakening. But that's not what we are trying to discuss here...
Duff-Man 04-07-04, 05:06 PM	Originally posted by hecate I do not know what you mean by "no inorganic bonds," nor do I completely understand your division between silica-based and carbon-based structures. Simply because something is carbon-based does not make it organic. Carbon, nor any other element, is in and of itself organic. It is simply an element. Organic chemistry is carbon and how it relates to other elements, if something doesn't contain carbon (ex. water) it is considered inorganic. But things with carbon, say natural gas is organic. edit - this is some bad grammer, but I have a degree in chemistry not english....
Finwe 04-07-04, 05:16 PM	Rocks are mostly silicon based, whereas diamonds are mostly carbon. Thus diamonds are not rocks. Otherwise you could use teh transmut mud to rock spell to make diamonds :eek:
hecate 04-07-04, 05:18 PM	Thanks for the scholastic clarification regarding organic v inorganic chemistry, Duff-man. :) If that is what he was Ehrin had in mind, then cool... I was looking at it from a theoretical (not chemistry)-based analysis; organic (living) v inorganic (non-living).
ehrin 04-07-04, 07:49 PM	Hecate: Diamonds are not crystalline in structure. THey do not form the same way other gems (crystals) do. They will not grow in solution, etc. as is required for true crystalline material. Diamonds are pure carbon (elemental). there are no other rocks that are elementally carbon. Thus, they do not share any elemental make-up with rocks. And, i must disagree with your statement "Simply because something is carbon-based does not make it organic." By definition, if an item is carbon based, it is in fact, organic. Organic = carbon based, carbon based = organic. There is still debate on whether Diamonds (pure carbon) are organic or not. Many chemists consider an organic compound to only be those compounds that contain Carbon and Hydrogen (thus, 'carbon-based'). As a pure Carbon compound, diamonds don't qualify because they have nothing else. But, as pure carbon, they don't qualify as inorganic either (which are compounds formed without carbon).
hecate 04-07-04, 08:02 PM	Ehrin, they're not crystalline? Hmm..., ok, I know too little about geology to disagree. I thought all mineral compositions were crystalline in structure, and diamonds seem crystalline in design. As for the cardon = organic statement; as I stated above to Duff-Man, I was looking at it from a living v non-living basis, not a chemistry-based definition. Sorry about that... ah, when science and socio-psychology meet! ;)
[GSV] Kirstar 04-08-04, 03:58 AM	Originally posted by Greenintern When the spell was created, the "stone" in the description most likely is referring to stone; i.e. granite, slate, etc. I would rule that the diamonds would come out intact in the mud. Precious gems are usually graded on their purity and shape, so there is a fair chance that the sheet of diamond, although impressive, would not be as useful. On a side note, it also might not be as strong, because the crystalline structure of a diamond is precisely why it is so strong. As a sheet, the structure wouldn't be as uniform, hence theweakening. But that's not what we are trying to discuss here... Diamonds are made of pure carbon arranged in a latice structure. Graphite is also pur carbon but the atomic structure is plate based rather than latice. Bucky balls is pure carbon arranged in geodeasic(sp?) structure. Thin kfootballs (soccar to you guys from teh states) Now if you were cable of turning diamonds to a mud like substance then back to solid you could do the following. Mud lots of diamonds them rock them back together. Because you would have 1 solid chunk of latice carbon ie diamond it would be worth alot. The new lump of diamond would have NO FLAWS, NO INCLUSIONS, etc etc....
pjackson 04-08-04, 05:52 AM	Diamonds are pure carbon (elemental). there are no other rocks that are elementally carbon. Thus, they do not share any elemental make-up with rocks. They do with coal.
phb 04-08-04, 07:43 AM	Originally posted by pjackson They do with coal. Coal is organic in both senses of the word as used in this thread. I doubt that anyone would consider it to be a rock. [edit for typo]
[GSV] Kirstar 04-08-04, 08:11 AM	i dont know about that. i would consider coal a rock for the purposes of this spell.
KitsuneSoup 04-08-04, 10:41 AM	Forget all this scientific jibber-jawing. Talk to your DM about the Earth Elemental again. It works. Read up on them; the Dao use them all the time for digging. Since they don't need to eat or breathe, just thank them for the job well done. A Xorn is acceptable, although it also eats diamonds, so it would be polite to give it a few before the summoning runs out. Use summon monster III to summon a mercane. Tell the mercane about the diamonds, your name, and that you expect a 15% finder's fee. The mercane will kindly accept and set up his own digging operation with elementals and other interesting things, and you are safely going to inherit some profit. Mercanes, it should be noted, are philosophically against going against the terms of a business arrangement, and would be black-balled in their communities for trying. Most of them wouldn't risk such an action. Or, if you really wanted to try something outlandish: You said it was a vein, right? Even though diamonds don't normally form in veins like metal does, you can have some fun. Summon an earth weird (summon monster II, it's a weaker elemental) and instead of targeting the rock, target the diamond. You'd have a diamond snake chasing you around for a few moments, then the diamonds would be yours. This assumes that your DM requires you to have the material the elemental is made of on hand. [EDIT-- psst... and if your DM says you can't make a diamond elemental, then he's admitting that rocks and diamonds are two different things... see previous posts for information, and also note that he's telling you the erath elemental can't move through diamonds. -- KS] Anyway, just a few thoughts. KitsuneSoup
God of Slivers 04-08-04, 12:40 PM	Diamonds are a crystal. They can be grown is solution, and in fact they are. Granted, the solution must be under extreme heat and pressure, but they do grow. In fact there are a few places in FL that are growing diamonds in solution right now. But thats besides the point. As was pointed out earlier, Transmute Rock to Mud would be much more abusable if it worked on gems (like diamonds, rubys, emeralds, etc). I would say that would work, so you can use to get out the diamonds (although an earth elemental would be faster). However, if you don't plan to stick around long I would say summon the mercane after you've grabbed all that you can.
ehrin 04-08-04, 04:01 PM	my apologies, after a bit of web searching, I find that diamonds can now be grown from solutions, and are true geologic crystals. Until Gemesis started doing it, they couldn't (only by pressure/heat baking or Chem-Vapor Deposition) could the diamond be made). But now, Gemesis is growing them from a liquid graphite solution, and that counts as a solution! mea culpa!
God of Slivers 04-08-04, 09:58 PM	Yuppers, I read about Gemesis a while back. Just glad to share some info. So now that its agreed that diamonds are crystals, I think its safe to say that Transmute Rock to Mud will not effect them.
IceFractal 04-09-04, 03:20 AM	You should also note that most things in D&D make absolutely no scientific sense, and that especially in spells, logic was subordinated to balance. For example, why shouldn't you be able to Poly any Object rock to diamond? Its much more similar than, say, dragon to end table, in fact, being the same kingdom and similar in other ways, it should be permanent. However, they come up with an arbitrary "cannot create valuable materials" rule that is inherently ridiculous. Why? Because "valuable" is a subjective term. Should PaO be able to morph a piece of paper into a $100 dollar bill? Of course, but wait, that would be valuable, so it can't. If we switched to a different currency and $100 dollar bills were worthless, it would suddenly work again. Maybe somebody should set up a magical currency measuring system based on PaO ("Well, the Goblin dollar is up again, we can't morph things into it any more, but the Gnome one is through the floor, I was able to make a whole pile of them"). I understand the reason they did this, otherwise anyone with PaO would be so rich they could just bribe the dragon to leave rather than fighting it, but from a logical PoV a lot of things are just silly.