Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rumple_Cragstan 03-23-05, 05:33 PM	Grace poured over the borrowed spellbook, eager to jot down any spells she didn't have in her own book. Wow, Kelmon dosn't seem to have many more new spells since we last traded... I wonder what he's been up to? She thought as the turned the pages. Then her eyes passed over a page written in more delicate finesse, obviously holding a spell of impressive complexity. "Kelmon, get in here!" She loudly called into the other room where her companion was busy looking through one of her other spellbooks for spells that he did not have scribed into one of his books. Kelmon burst into the room, a deadly spell at the tip of his tongue. When he saw that the room was just as he had left it, he scowled at Grace."What is the meaning of this!?" His hands rose to his chest, crossing over in an attempt to seem intimidating. Grace glared at him and lifted the spellbook so he could see the spell written on its pages. "I think you should be explaining to me what the meaning of THIS is. You told me that you where initiated into the 4th circle a while ago... but this? No 4th circle mage could ever cast 'Cone of Cold'!" She slammed the spellbook closed on the table. "What happened to our pact? We promised eachother that we would rise through the ranks of together! And now you hide your promotion from me!?" Kelmon shook his head and smiled. "I was wondering when you'd notice that. And no, I havn't been promoted. But I can cast that spell." He stepped towards her, putting his hand on her shoulder as he casted a spell. A glowing blue doorway opened in front of the pair, and he pulled her though it. There was a flash of light, and they stood in the courtyard of Kelmon's estate. He turned to Grace and smiled. "There's something I've been working on, which I think you'll find quite interesting...." For a long time now, metamagic techniques where used for mages to improve the simplest of spells in order to make them formidable, or to make the powerful spells even more so. But recently a new set of Metamagic techniques have been spreading through the novice mages, techniques that allow them to cast spells more powerful then they should be able to.... Weaken Spell [MiniMagic] You can cast spells to a lesser effect. Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a weakened spell are decreased by one-half. A weakened spell uses up a spell slot 1 level lower than the spells actuall level. Special: This feat cannot be added to a spell if the spell does not have any variable numeric effects (such as Charm Person) Shorten Spell [MiniMagic] You can cast spells with a shorter maximum range. Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to shorten its range by 75%. Round the total maximum range to the nearest 5ft. A shortened spell takes up a spell slot one level lower than the spell's actual level. Special: This feat cannot be added to any spells whose ranges are not defined by distance, or whose ranges are not close, meduim, or long. (Such as Chill Touch) Retract Spell [MiniMagic] You can shorten a spells maximum duration Benefit: A retracted spell lasts 1/4 as long as normal. A retracted spell takes up a spell slot one level lower than the actual spell's level. Special: This feat cannot be added to a spell with an instantanious duration (Such as Fireball) Minimise Spell [MiniMagic] You can deliberately cast spells at thier lowest potential. Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a minimised spell are minimised. A minimised spell deals minimum damage, heals the minimum hit points, and so on. A minimised spell takes up a spell slot 2 levels lower than the spell's actual level. Special: This feat cannot be added to a spell if the spell does not have any variable numeric effects (such as Charm Person) Shrink Spell [MiniMagic] You can reduce the area of effect of your spells Benefit:You can alter a burst, emenation, line, or spread-shaped spell to decrease its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell's area decrease by 75%. Round the total to the nearest 5ft (to a minimum of 5ft). For example, a fireball affected by this metamagic feat would have a burst radius of 5ft. A shrunken spell takes up a spell slot 1 level lower than the spell's actual level. Special: This feat cannot be added to any spell which does not have an area of effect. (Such as Scorching Ray) Special Rules All Anti-Metamagic feats are subject to these rules: Any spell cannot be modified by more than one Anti-Metamagic feat, and no spell modified by an Anti-Metamagic feat can be modified by a Metamagic Feat. If the Anti-Metamagic feat applied would reduce the spell level to or below 0, the Anti-Metamagic feat cannot be added to the spell. Oppinions everyone? EDIT #1 - Changed the spell level adjustments to alot lower. EDIT #2 - Added some fine print to the feats in order to shut up the RAW Lawyers. EDIT #3 - 'MiniMagic' makes more sense than 'Anti-MetaMagic'
Draco Obscura 03-23-05, 06:41 PM	Its a thought, but it would only truly be useful to wizards, since only a wizard can "know" a spell that is beyond his ability to cast. <edit> Except that once one knows a spell, one could prepare many, many more of a higher level spell using this feat. This almost seems too powerful from that standpoint. </edit> Still, I like it.
Raven's Aprentice 03-23-05, 07:17 PM	me like me like finally metamagic for WIZARDS!!!! damn those spontanous casters damn them I say. This would be great for low level wizards and maybe to make these even better you should change the rule of wizard level up research (ie at level 4 I could add a level 3 spell to my book even though I could not cast it) but yeah this would be uber for lower level wizards me likey a lot :D
Endarire 03-23-05, 07:25 PM	As people have previously remarked in other threads, metamagic feats that reduce the spell level are taboo since certain spells are that good, even if weakened. (Imagine a weaker fireball as a cantrip!) That said, define 'variable effect.' Is this 1d4+1 or 1 round/level? Is there a minimum of 1 round, hour, etc. on such by-level spells? What happens when combining these, such as weaken with minimize; do we get L1 Wizards who can suddenly cast wail of the banshee? -EE
djinni 03-23-05, 08:39 PM	What happens when combining these, such as weaken with minimize; do we get L1 Wizards who can suddenly cast wail of the banshee? The purpose is roleplay, to allow an little more variety. if you don't like it you as the GM can simply say that a 9th level spell is too advanced for a novice user to research or even attempt to understnad (ie cast) as a general rule I'd allow this but make the player spend time researching out the spells, making the rolls as if they were brand new spells. and instant death effects don't have a minimal damage rating if the save if failed, I would not allow these particular feats to be applied to any spell that has an effect the feat cannot directly affect.
Nom 03-23-05, 09:03 PM	The glaring issue that your rules don't cover is that some spells provide redundant benefits. charm person and mage armour both last 1 hour / level, but there are many situations where there would be no drawback if they only lasted 10 minutes. Do you really want casters to be able to use charm person as a cantrip just because they only want the charm to last a short while? Likewise, shortened fireball will wipe the floor with any other second level attack spell. Worse, a shrunk fireball provides a cantrip that does d6 damage per caster level at Long range with 5 ft. radius. There are very few situations where that is weaker than burning hands (a level 1 spell). For normal metamagic, you can choose to tweak a particular aspect of the spell to get more out of it, paying a higher cost to do so. However, it does not follow that because doubling the range makes the spell notably more powerful, halving the range makes it notably less powerful. This is the min/maxing principle: if you're not using it, it doesn't matter how weak it is. Other quirks: What is the spell level for DC purposes? Metamagic (except Heighten) doesn't increase the DC. Does negative metamagic decrease the DC? How does the caster learn such a spell? The current rules prevent a caster from learning a spell that he cannot use. "I know I am only able to learn and use 1st level spells, but I can learn a 3rd level spell because I have a feat that allows me to cast it from a 1st level slot."
dragoncc 03-23-05, 09:50 PM	Whew, I guess I'll have to make these suggestions again. These are suggestions to limit the craziness that would/could ensue if using this type of metamagic (which I do). A combination of the following suggestions will allow the flexibility of this idea, but not let it get out of hand needlessly & uncontrollably: Don't allow the combination of increasing & decreasing metamagics on the same spell casting. Don't allow more than one decreasing metamagic on the same casting. Don't allow the reduction to lower the spell level below 1 Don't allow decreasing metamagics on cantrips or 1st level spells. Require said caster to know the increasing version of the metamagic as well (ie make prereqs for all of these types of metamagics) Don't make the reductions so large that "everyone will want to take them" Now, with that said, some people are always going to point out that using reducing metamagics on some spells is no real drawback or penalty. My response to that is that players aren't supposed to be penalized for taking a feat. Which brings up the next point -- there are a whole lot of other feats that the PC did not take so they have to get something out of it (especially if there are prereqs). & finally, you're the DM & you know that the PC has the feat. NPC's can take the feat just as well ;) OK, the judgement of the feats: snip... For a long time now, metamagic techniques where used for mages to improve the simplest of spells in order to make them formidable, or to make the powerful spells even more so. But recently a new set of Metamagic techniques have been spreading through the novice mages, techniques that allow them to cast spells more powerful then they should be able to.... The only thing that sends tingles up my spine is the bolded part. This shouldn't be for the amateur, but for the experience metamagic spell tweaking expert IMO, cause when you play with fire... Weaken Spell You can cast spells to a lesser effect. Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a weakened spell are decreased by one-half. A weakened spell uses up a spell slot two levels lower than the spells actuall level. Not much difference than this or Minimize when you run the numbers in most cases so I wouldn't make their cost very different (see minimize). Shorten Spell You can cast spells with a shorter maximum range. Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to shorten its range by 75%. Round the total maximum range to the nearest 5ft. A shortened spell takes up a spell slot one level lower than the spell's actual level. This one is in the "don't go there" stack IMO, because there is nothing in the rules that keeps a player from choosing the shorter range with the spell as written -- you're giving a reduced cost for something that's already possible with the spell. Retract Spell You can shorten a spells maximum duration Benefit: A retracted spell lasts 1/4 as long as normal. A retracted spell takes up a spell slot one level lower than the actual spell's level. 1/4 is a bit of a pain, I'd just make it 1/2 & be done with it myself. Minimise Spell You can deliberately cast spells at thier lowest potential. Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a minimised spell are minimised. A minimised spell deals minimum damage, heals the minimum hit points, and so on. A minimised spell takes up a spell slot 4 levels lower than the spell's actual level. Use this one myself, albeit at 2 levels lower (the most a reduction should be IMO) Shrink Spell You can reduce the area of effect of your spells Benefit:You can alter a burst, emenation, line, or spread-shaped spell to decrease its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell's area decrease by 75%. Round the total to the nearest 5ft (to a minimum of 5ft). For example, a fireball affected by this metamagic feat would have a burst radius of 5ft. A minimised spell takes up a spell slot 3 levels lower than the spell's actual level. See above about reduction -- make it a 1 or 2 level reduction (actually leaning towards 1) As you can tell, all the metamagic feats here are simply reversed feats based off of the basic metamagic feats in the PHB. They, of course, follow the same fine print as thier PHB counterparts (spells whose ranges are not defined by distance, or whose ranges are not close, meduim, or long, do not have reduced ranges) Not good enough to just mirror the increase with a equivalent decrease as in game terms they do not equate. Balance is vital in order to not loose control of the casters in your game with these. I've found that erring on the more conservative side with these reductions makes them more than appealing without getting on the every caster is taking these feats list. Oppinions everyone? I think it's a great idea, but you should probably playtest all of those thoroughly before you allow them into your game (especially as is).
Wizard 03-23-05, 10:43 PM	My vote for an added mechanic with negative metamagic---when you cast a spell that's been modified this way, make a Spellcraft check (not an action). The DC is 15+(3/4)(spell level). Is this a major nerf to the concept? Yes...But I think it needs it. I'd also add a feat: Resistable Spell Benefit: A spell prepared with this feat allows a saving throw of a type determined by the DM. A spell prepared with this feat takes up a slot one level lower than it normally does. This feat may only be applied to spells that do not normally allow a saving throw.
Draco Obscura 03-23-05, 10:54 PM	<snip> How does the caster learn such a spell? The current rules prevent a caster from learning a spell that he cannot use. </snip> As I stated, the class most benifitiing here is the wizard, whose spellbook can concienably contain every spell in the PHB, even before it is available to him, if he can get his hands on a scroll and pass his spellcraft check to copy it. For everyone else, its just a way of maximizing your amount of fire damage when you know you're going up against a white dragon or undead treant by filling every spell slot with a different version of fireball.
dragoncc 03-23-05, 11:41 PM	My vote for an added mechanic with negative metamagic---when you cast a spell that's been modified this way, make a Spellcraft check (not an action). The DC is 15+(3/4)(spell level). Is this a major nerf to the concept? Yes...But I think it needs it. Why does it need it? Do you have to make that check with increased level cost metamagic? No, so why add that mechanic to the system? (not being snippy, but I would like to know the reasoning behind the "major nerf") Have you actually tried these in a playtest or game because I think these should at least be tested before severely gimped with the nerf stick. I'd also add a feat: Resistable Spell Benefit: A spell prepared with this feat allows a saving throw of a type determined by the DM. A spell prepared with this feat takes up a slot one level lower than it normally does. This feat may only be applied to spells that do not normally allow a saving throw. Uhh, I think some guideline would be in order so that the DM has some idea of what he/she is supposed to be determining other than what is the PC's weakest save. Something referring to specific types of effects or school maybe? Other than that, I think it's a good idea.
IMarvinTPA 03-24-05, 12:26 AM	I'll take 5 minimized Wishes please. Since the +1 inherent bonus is a non-variable effect, it is unaffected. I'll also take a minimized limited wish and get heal from the adept list. Since heal simply does 10 hp/level, it's not affected either. 300xp and a 3rd level slot for heal, I'm so there man! IMarv
dragoncc 03-24-05, 12:53 AM	I'll take 5 minimized Wishes please. Since the +1 inherent bonus is a non-variable effect, it is unaffected. Ok, if I suggested a new spell that was a lesser version of wish that only granted 2 wishes, what level would you say it would be?? Probably 1 level lower though, because that's generally how that works. If it is a lesser effect, then the level is lower. Same with this idea, just think they need to be looked at a bit harder than Rumple_Cragstan originally conceived, but they are by no means a lost cause. I'll also take a minimized limited wish and get heal from the adept list. Since heal simply does 10 hp/level, it's not affected either. 300xp and a 3rd level slot for heal, I'm so there man! IMarv Umm, 10hp/level is not a variable effect & not able to be minimized, so I'm not sure where you're going with that, maybe specify a little bit with your posts? & yes, it has been pointed out every time someone comes up with a Minimize spell feat that wish is variable. Which brings up one of the suggestions I forgot: 7. You must be able to cast the normal version of the spell in order to cast a metamagiced one. (so that in your example above, you aren't casting it any earlier than you would normally, just casting it as a lower level spell (which is why I suggested only 1 level lower for the way it's written above). FYI, my version (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=368847) only applies to healing/inflicting spells to avoid this issue with minimize. Like I said, I like the ideas, but some of them need to be selectively adjusted in some instances to avoid unintentional consequenses, but like I asked above, have you actually tried any of these out? anyone??
dragoncc 03-24-05, 01:01 AM	As I stated, the class most benifitiing here is the wizard, whose spellbook can concienably contain every spell in the PHB, even before it is available to him, if he can get his hands on a scroll and pass his spellcraft check to copy it. For everyone else, its just a way of maximizing your amount of fire damage when you know you're going up against a white dragon or undead treant by filling every spell slot with a different version of fireball. & the problem with that is what? The player plans out the attack using all of his available resources which includes feats that he has invested in. Everyone seems caught up in the lowering mechanic, but not in the fact that most people aren't saying that they would even take one of them for every wizard played (many of them, although they look decent on paper, aren't going to even get much play due to the sheer number of other "power" feats out there. These are an investment by the character & (with the proper rules &/or prereqs) are not just going to be picked up at first level & allow the caster to be whipping out spells for free.
Draco Obscura 03-24-05, 01:02 AM	I never said there was anything wrong with it. I even specifically said I liked it. I was just stating a fact. Since when is that a crime? And if it is, how soon can I get off this rock?
Rumple_Cragstan 03-24-05, 04:55 AM	Wow. I post this and I return 12 hours later to find more than a few new posts. This has got to be the fastest growing thread I've posted in a while. Anyhow, I notice that not many of you are sure how the NORMAL metamagic feats work (because as its been pointed out, you can't minimise something that dosn't have a variable numeric effect). I'll just pass over this and note that its been dealth with. I'm still tweaking with the idea; I seriously thought it up shortly before I posted it and I had the PHB beside me as I wrote the entry so I could decide how each feat worked as I posted it. And in response to the cry for sorcerors, I apologize. This set of feats was indeed designed with wizards in mind (thus the opening story) so they could cast weaker versions of thier favorite spells. I imagine that it would indeed be much more of a roleplay aspect than an actual statline strategy as well. Thanks for pointing out the difference for the fireball, I didn't notice that when I posted. How do you think that we can fix this? And I did think that 3+ level reductions where a bit much, but at the time I simply reversed the PHB costs. As well, with spells like fireball, you must remember that if you're casting it at level 4, it will only deal 4d6 damage (without modifications). A weakened fireball would deal the equivilent of 2d6 at level 4. Sure of course its still more powerful than burning hands, but thats why I posted it here before adding them to my game.
Draco Obscura 03-24-05, 02:20 PM	I have a suggestion. The more powerful the anti-metamagic, the less it lowers effective level. Completely invert the metamagic feats.
Rumple_Cragstan 03-24-05, 08:06 PM	I have a suggestion. The more powerful the anti-metamagic, the less it lowers effective level. Completely invert the metamagic feats. *D'oh* I can't believe I never thought about this! Ok, I'll get right at changing them!
Draco Obscura 03-24-05, 08:08 PM	Glad to help.
Rumple_Cragstan 03-24-05, 08:18 PM	wait, I thought about that comment for a while, and I decided that it wouldn't work too well. I don't think that a change so small as to use Retract Spell would be balanced to give it -2 or -3 spell levels. I changed them so they all lower the level by 1, except for Minimise spell (because that one is just plain nasty - it deserves to be 2 levels lower)
IMarvinTPA 03-24-05, 11:23 PM	I'd prep a shortened silenced dimension door. I don't usually need to get too terribly far away if I'm trying to get out of a bind, grapple, or silenced area. IMarv
Draco Obscura 03-24-05, 11:33 PM	*shrugs* Eh, I wasn't thinking too hard about it. It just struck me that keeping it very close to the original spell level balanced it quite well against a metamagic feat keeping them very far away.
Rumple_Cragstan 03-25-05, 02:53 AM	I'd prep a shortened silenced dimension door. I don't usually need to get too terribly far away if I'm trying to get out of a bind, grapple, or silenced area. And that sounds pretty fair. However if you're grappling, you'd need to make it stilled as well. And watch out for that AoO for casting a spell (I'm not sure if they get it while in a grapple, but it would make sense for them to) So all in all, a shortened stilled silenced Dimension door would be a 5th level spell. A spell that simply teleports you out of a grapple or something similar sounds like its pretty balanced when you compare it to other 5th level spells (cloudkill, cone of cold, teleport, feeblemind...)
IMarvinTPA 03-25-05, 11:06 AM	Dimension Door does not have any somantic components. It is Verbal Only. You can't and don't need to apply the still spell feat to it. IMarv
Ellone 03-25-05, 12:30 PM	Well, it has already been said, metamagic reducing spell level is difficult to create because too many spell have effect designed for their spell level you could too easily reduce by ajusting a secondary element of the spell. Take maximize, this meatamgic feats is used for spell with a lot of variable effect, they are the one you are increasing. You create minimize taking the same standard into account... But do you really think this feat will be use on the same spell? No minimize will be use for spell with the less possible variable effect, exactly the spell you would never associate with maximize. You were speaking about variable effect and no variable effect saying than you can't use empower or maximize with spell with no variable effect, that's false, <b>you can!</b> but this is without any effect, and noone would think seriously about it when there's a cost... You are here exchanging cost for a reward with exactly the same effect (none) metamagic feat as you did write them are munchkin tool probably fun, not that bad an idea but still, the system can be easily perverted, spells are not design to see their level reduced. will give a few exemple: use minimize on cure spell and look at the result... minimized cure serious compared to cure minor for a level 15 character, see something? try to use minimize or weaken with summon monster spell, you have a variable effect if you summon monsters from lower summon spell... good news when you are effectiively using lower level slot... is an half range fireball really a less effective spell? same is true for most damage spell more limitation and close looking by master could be a solution to all these problem but you still have to add them: spell level can't be reduced bellow 1 no more than one for a given spell no -2 spell level feat variable effect feat are limited to spell with effective variable effect...
GimliGloinson 03-25-05, 02:30 PM	Howdy, gang! Just your friendly neighborhood dwarven wizard, here. How 'bout instead of this mass of new feats we consolidate it into one, as follows? Attenuate Spell [Metamagic] You are able to cast spells using a lower spell slot, but also reducing their effectivenss. Prerequisites: Heighten Spell, ability to prepare and cast arcane spells. Benefit: You may prepare a spell in a lower level slot, however this reduces your caster level to the minimum required to cast spells of the lower level slot for purposes of determining the spell's effects (damage, duration, range, area, etc.). For all purposes the spell is treated as a spell of the new, lower level. The spell's save DC (if any) is reduced to the new level and the spell is dispeled, countered or is affected by Globes of Invulnerability (Lesser and Greater) as appropriate. Example, Armand prepares a fireball in a second level slot. His fireball will be cast as if he were a third level caster, dealing only 3d6 damage, with a range of 520 feet (400 plus 40 * 3rd level caster), and a Reflex save DC of 12 plus his Intelligence modifier. This is my first attempt at writing this up, so I might come up with some fine tuning in the near future when I have some more time to devote to it. In the mean time, what are y'all's feelings on my suggestion?
Molot 03-25-05, 03:16 PM	Weaken Spell, Minimise Spell and Attenuate Spell- so you can cast all spells without variable, numeric effects using lower slot without any panalities... Not good idea. Summon Monster IX would be too powerfull on any of lower levels, aven if it would summon only one monster... Or Gate spell... Argh, this way all balance is broken easily. Weaken Spell - It is very usefull if you, for example, cast a ray and know that if you miss the target, you'll destroy something that you shouldn't. So it should be one level higher. Shrink Spell - very good if you want to hit your enemy, but are afraid that friends may be to close and take damage too. Just shrink the spell and they will be safe. So it sgould cost about one level up. Retract Spell - great if you want to use any "fog" spell in a dungeon, against large number of low-level creatures. Just kill them fast, without a risk of being pushed into it, without blocking the way. So it should cost about one level higher slot.
Nom 03-25-05, 05:35 PM	You were speaking about variable effect and no variable effect saying than you can't use empower or maximize with spell with no variable effect, that's false, <b>you can!</b>Well, the actual wording is "this feat has no effect on spells ...". Whether that means "can't apply" or "does nothing" is difficult to say, but in practice irrelevant. Where it does become relevant is if you create "negative" feats.
GimliGloinson 03-25-05, 05:58 PM	to Molot: What do you mean without penalties? Attenuate Spell actually lowers your caster level to the MINIMUM necessary to cast a spell of the new level. I did forget to add in the "only spells with variable numeric effects" part, but other than that I'd say if you're a 10th level wizard who wants to cast a fireball with a second level spell slot, then you're going to be limited to 3d6 damage, as I showed in the example. I think it pretty much balances itself by cutting the effective caster level down.
Molot 03-25-05, 06:18 PM	to Molot: What do you mean without penalties? Attenuate Spell actually lowers your caster level to the MINIMUM necessary to cast a spell of the new level.There are spells with effects independent from CL. Magic Circle Against ... for example, if I remember correctly. I can't check it now, but most of "utility" spells would be here. "Comprehend Languages" almost for sure - no save, no variable effects... so you can lower this to a 0 slot and it still be as usable as it was. If you add a part "with a variable numeric effects and/or with effects depending on caster level" it would be a _bit_ better, but it does not solve the Summon Monster IX problem for example.
Draco Obscura 03-25-05, 07:31 PM	Except that you can't "upgrade" any of those spells even if you wanted to. Only a spell that would be affected by a meta- or anti-metamagic feat CAN be prepared using that feat. At least thats the way I've always seen it, and will continue to rule it.
Rumple_Cragstan 03-25-05, 07:38 PM	Except that you can't "upgrade" any of those spells even if you wanted to. Only a spell that would be affected by a meta- or anti-metamagic feat CAN be prepared using that feat. At least thats the way I've always seen it, and will continue to rule it. Yep, this is how I always imaged the rules worked... and its using that assumption that I made these feats.
Draco Obscura 03-25-05, 07:47 PM	In case someone says "Nuh-uh" about my last post, look at it this way. Say you have a .22 rifle, .22 ammunition, and some assorted buckshot. Now, you can't load buckshot into a .22 (which is what I'm saying), but for arguments sake, lets say you can. What happens when you fire buckshot through your .22? It probably fragments, sending shrapnel everywhere. I say that this is what would happen to a spellcasters brain if he tried to use a meta- or anti-metamagic feat on a spell unaffected by it. But that's just me. And before you say anything about using metamagic on spells which do qualify, think about things like armor-piercing, incendiary or shrapnel rounds and THEN say something.
Wizard 03-25-05, 10:19 PM	Hmmmmm...attenuated otto's irresistable dance... :schemes: And dragoncc...trust me, man. A shortened, shrunk meteor storm is 24d6 as a 7th level spell, no save. There's gotta be SOMETHING to balance that out...and it's not just a feat slot. Especially when you consider that the class that will take this feat---which yours truly prefers---can have metamagic feats coming out its ears.
dragoncc 03-26-05, 12:15 AM	If you read my post I said that shorten was a bad idea, & that you shouldn't be able to combine them ;)
Rumple_Cragstan 03-26-05, 04:15 AM	I like the idea of not being able to combine the feats... it prevents someone from casting a minimised shortened shrunk retracted cloudkill. Thats one nasty cantrip if you ask me! A short (but not TOO short) range spell that takes up a 5ft square, lasts for 2.5 rounds/level, and deals 1 con damage every round to the unlucky fool inside it.
dragoncc 03-26-05, 09:44 AM	I give up :weep: Why would you ever let the spell level drop below 1?
Rumple_Cragstan 03-26-05, 08:09 PM	I give up :weep: Why would you ever let the caster level drop below 1? I presume that you meant spell level in that comment. And actually, my previous post was meant to signify that I'm going to take you up on most (if not all) of those suggestions you made. No combining Anti-Metamagic feats, and no decreasing the spell level below 1 are the FIRST rules that come into play with this set of feats!
dragoncc 03-26-05, 08:28 PM	Yep (edited), & I'm glad you are taking them into consideration. I thought everyone was simply ignoring them ;) I've used lowering metamagics in a campaign for about a year now & though it took a couple of sessions to get some of the bugs worked out (like some of those rules), I'm pretty happy with the results. I'd be interested in any playtesting you are able to provide results to & what rules/feats you use. Thanks in advance.
Vatras 03-26-05, 08:47 PM	There are too many abuses possible with so-called "weaker" spells, because the imposed limit does not detract from their utility in many cases.
Ellone 03-30-05, 06:54 AM	Maybe found something usable Nerf Spell: This metamagic feat was designed by the archimagus Nerf after his famous fight versus the Illithid lord, now remembered as Nerfbraineater. It was designed to allow Nerf to continue casting his higher level spells. Nerf spell is a metamagic feat usable for any 2nd or higher level spell fulfulling at least 2 among the next 3 conditions: spell has a variable effect (rolled dice), this exclude any roll made only if targets save successfully spell has a duration (not instantaneous and not concentration based) spell has a range other than self or touch. Spell affected by this feats take a slot one level lower than the original one but are penalized by: -1 save dc duration, variable effect, number of target, range divided by 2 area of effect divided by 4 (usualy meaning aoe range divided by 2)
Rumple_Cragstan 04-03-05, 09:34 PM	Well I changed them from Anti-MetaMagic to MiniMagic (Scince its not really against MetaMagic feats so much as its reflecting them), but other than that I think my changes are done to them. How does everyone see them with the new rules and such I've added? I think that in thier current state they're quite balanced myself.
dragoncc 04-03-05, 10:31 PM	hey Rumple_Cragstan, the Special Rules section still says "Anti-Metamagic" ;)