A Dominate Invocation for a Warlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Dominate Invocation for a Warlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dillius
07-05-07, 12:37 PM I've seen on member of the board's version of a dominate invocation for a warlock (Pitiless_Interfector's Dark Puppet), but felt like some of the penalties imposed by an early break were a bit much.

Judging that warlocks get a form of Charm Monster as a Lesser Invocation, is it truly unreasonable to think that they couldn't have basically just a "Dominate" as a Dark invocation. Basically matching the Charm invocation but not requiring a shared language, communicating telepathically, and of course being Dominate Monster level control not Charm Monster level.

It seems to me that this wouldn't be really unbalanced, but I'd like some opinions. I'll be playing a Warlock soon and I love enchantment spells(Will of course have Charm, and Devil's Whisper's from Cityscape).

I almost think you could treat it more like one of the Domination Domain's higher level spells. Either a penalty on subsequent will saves, or not having it break on a subsequent will save, just allowing the dominated target to refuse the action. Being that a warlock can never have more than 1 target dominated at a time, I don't think this would be abused terribly badly. (We could even add in a limit on the Dominated creatures hit dice not exceeding your level)

I'd like some opinions on the matter before I bring it up to my DM. Any would be greatly appreciated. Even if it's purely homebrew, I'd like to see how other players or DM's would regard it.
RobbyPants
07-05-07, 12:42 PM In general, I think I agree with you. You have to wait until a fairly high level (much higher than a caster getting Dominate) to get dark invocations.

Maybe it's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, but don't be surprised if your DM wants to limit it in some way.
Witch
07-05-07, 01:43 PM With the "one at a time only" limitation, I don't see an issue with this Invocation. I'd place it at 7th level.
Dillius
07-05-07, 02:42 PM I'm still trying to decide whether or not to give it secondary things akin to True Domination or Monstrous Thrall. As it's been said, one target at a time at a later level than standard casters would get Dominate Person.

I'm thinking that if given an order that prompts another will save, if successful it doesn't break the Dominate, but they instantly succeed against the same order again for 24 hours. Something along those lines.

I'm mainly looking at the usefulness if this as a form of organizational infiltration personally. You don't want the person you mind controlled to go spy on his group just randomly breaking it in the middle of his task. Refusing to take a particular action is acceptable.
Wrong
07-05-07, 04:17 PM Dominate is a save or die spell that gives you a slave.
Look at Word of Changing, that is just a save or die spell, and compare. Dark, 5th level save DC, another saving throw after 24 hours. You do not gain a slave. This is the only save or die invocation in the list, and it's far less powerful than an everlasting dominate monster…
Dillius
07-05-07, 04:35 PM Very true. I had misread the spell True Domination from Complete Divine

I still feel it's next to nothing compared to what a Sorcerer, Wizard, or Beguiler could do. A sorcerer with both Dominate Person and Monster could Juggle 12 Dominated Persons with a refresh once daily, realistically with the durations being One Day/Level.

Instead of unbreakable, perhaps -4 to saving throws for actions against their nature? (This exactly matches True Domination, simply True Domination can be cast multiple times on multiple targets with 1 day/level duration) This would effectively make it an 8th level spell, if we say it's based off of True Domination.
Wrong
07-05-07, 04:59 PM It's true that a dominate can easily be refreshed by a caster as he just has to command the creature to automatically fail its save. And the caster only has to sacrifice one 9th level spell slot something like every three weeks, lol.
The only problem I see with a dominate monster invocation is that you may dominate a creature during the fight, make it helps you and maybe get wounded, and at the end of the fight ask the party caster to cast something like disintegrate or slay living on it after commanding it to not save (two saves to resist the save or die, one for the dangerous order, one for the save or die) and if it doesn't work, just hit it as usual.
It's the possibility to spam an effect that can make an invocation too good.
If you set the DC too high, such as 7th level or more, the invocation will clearly be too powerful.
You may playtest your invocation with the same DC as Word of Changing (5th level) in the hands of a vicious player to see if problems arise.
Dillius
07-05-07, 06:23 PM Well I definitely qualify as a vicious player to playtest it. To me that recastability is the pure strength of the warlock invocation system. An arcane caster could use numerous different spells to hold something to kill it. They simply have a limit. As some have said about a warlock, your unlimited casting only matters if the other casters don't get to rest basically whenever they feel like. If they do, you're usefulness is definitely lowered.

Any other opinions?
WackyOne
07-05-07, 06:39 PM The idea of limiting hd someway is sound (everyone without mind blank can roll a one) - but I'd limit cr of the dominee instead
Or you could put in an even stricter leash: duration of 1 hour, a creature can be affected only once a day (or something similar, to prevent the "I've got a pet!" syndrome - you've got a pet for the encounter... wasn't there a shadow magic mystery that killed the target and left you with a short lived pet? maybe the warlock could copy that...).
Dillius
07-05-07, 08:23 PM Problem is, I don't consider charm/dominate primarily a combat use ability (yea, I'm sure I'm one of the few). That's not to say I don't use it in combat, but my group tends to avoid battles and try to find ways of acquiring our goals in such a way that is the least effort. We'll use deception, trickery, social skills, and our DM is fine with that.

An hour time on dominate wouldn't be enough time to get anything effective really done.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dillius 07-05-07, 12:37 PM	I've seen on member of the board's version of a dominate invocation for a warlock (Pitiless_Interfector's Dark Puppet), but felt like some of the penalties imposed by an early break were a bit much. Judging that warlocks get a form of Charm Monster as a Lesser Invocation, is it truly unreasonable to think that they couldn't have basically just a "Dominate" as a Dark invocation. Basically matching the Charm invocation but not requiring a shared language, communicating telepathically, and of course being Dominate Monster level control not Charm Monster level. It seems to me that this wouldn't be really unbalanced, but I'd like some opinions. I'll be playing a Warlock soon and I love enchantment spells(Will of course have Charm, and Devil's Whisper's from Cityscape). I almost think you could treat it more like one of the Domination Domain's higher level spells. Either a penalty on subsequent will saves, or not having it break on a subsequent will save, just allowing the dominated target to refuse the action. Being that a warlock can never have more than 1 target dominated at a time, I don't think this would be abused terribly badly. (We could even add in a limit on the Dominated creatures hit dice not exceeding your level) I'd like some opinions on the matter before I bring it up to my DM. Any would be greatly appreciated. Even if it's purely homebrew, I'd like to see how other players or DM's would regard it.
RobbyPants 07-05-07, 12:42 PM	In general, I think I agree with you. You have to wait until a fairly high level (much higher than a caster getting Dominate) to get dark invocations. Maybe it's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, but don't be surprised if your DM wants to limit it in some way.
Witch 07-05-07, 01:43 PM	With the "one at a time only" limitation, I don't see an issue with this Invocation. I'd place it at 7th level.
Dillius 07-05-07, 02:42 PM	I'm still trying to decide whether or not to give it secondary things akin to True Domination or Monstrous Thrall. As it's been said, one target at a time at a later level than standard casters would get Dominate Person. I'm thinking that if given an order that prompts another will save, if successful it doesn't break the Dominate, but they instantly succeed against the same order again for 24 hours. Something along those lines. I'm mainly looking at the usefulness if this as a form of organizational infiltration personally. You don't want the person you mind controlled to go spy on his group just randomly breaking it in the middle of his task. Refusing to take a particular action is acceptable.
Wrong 07-05-07, 04:17 PM	Dominate is a save or die spell that gives you a slave. Look at Word of Changing, that is just a save or die spell, and compare. Dark, 5th level save DC, another saving throw after 24 hours. You do not gain a slave. This is the only save or die invocation in the list, and it's far less powerful than an everlasting dominate monster…
Dillius 07-05-07, 04:35 PM	Very true. I had misread the spell True Domination from Complete Divine I still feel it's next to nothing compared to what a Sorcerer, Wizard, or Beguiler could do. A sorcerer with both Dominate Person and Monster could Juggle 12 Dominated Persons with a refresh once daily, realistically with the durations being One Day/Level. Instead of unbreakable, perhaps -4 to saving throws for actions against their nature? (This exactly matches True Domination, simply True Domination can be cast multiple times on multiple targets with 1 day/level duration) This would effectively make it an 8th level spell, if we say it's based off of True Domination.
Wrong 07-05-07, 04:59 PM	It's true that a dominate can easily be refreshed by a caster as he just has to command the creature to automatically fail its save. And the caster only has to sacrifice one 9th level spell slot something like every three weeks, lol. The only problem I see with a dominate monster invocation is that you may dominate a creature during the fight, make it helps you and maybe get wounded, and at the end of the fight ask the party caster to cast something like disintegrate or slay living on it after commanding it to not save (two saves to resist the save or die, one for the dangerous order, one for the save or die) and if it doesn't work, just hit it as usual. It's the possibility to spam an effect that can make an invocation too good. If you set the DC too high, such as 7th level or more, the invocation will clearly be too powerful. You may playtest your invocation with the same DC as Word of Changing (5th level) in the hands of a vicious player to see if problems arise.
Dillius 07-05-07, 06:23 PM	Well I definitely qualify as a vicious player to playtest it. To me that recastability is the pure strength of the warlock invocation system. An arcane caster could use numerous different spells to hold something to kill it. They simply have a limit. As some have said about a warlock, your unlimited casting only matters if the other casters don't get to rest basically whenever they feel like. If they do, you're usefulness is definitely lowered. Any other opinions?
WackyOne 07-05-07, 06:39 PM	The idea of limiting hd someway is sound (everyone without mind blank can roll a one) - but I'd limit cr of the dominee instead Or you could put in an even stricter leash: duration of 1 hour, a creature can be affected only once a day (or something similar, to prevent the "I've got a pet!" syndrome - you've got a pet for the encounter... wasn't there a shadow magic mystery that killed the target and left you with a short lived pet? maybe the warlock could copy that...).
Dillius 07-05-07, 08:23 PM	Problem is, I don't consider charm/dominate primarily a combat use ability (yea, I'm sure I'm one of the few). That's not to say I don't use it in combat, but my group tends to avoid battles and try to find ways of acquiring our goals in such a way that is the least effort. We'll use deception, trickery, social skills, and our DM is fine with that. An hour time on dominate wouldn't be enough time to get anything effective really done.