A Hold Person variant... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Hold Person variant... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
detectevil
01-07-04, 09:02 AM Hold person is a troublesome spell, isn't it? In 3.0 the spell was a will save or die, basically. After all, once you are helpless, you would get a CdG imediattly.

The fix they gave it in third edition is just plain silly. You get a second will save in the next round. What next round? Once held, the target is killed on the spot.

Also, there is the spell effect... some people think an energy field surrounds the target so that he can't move. Others think that it affects you nervous system, making you unable to move. Well, I would say that, with a Will saving throw, the second version seems more correct. But that would have to make the spell a mind-affecting, which it is not.

And, in fiction, everytime you see some-one being caught in a similar spell, he always free himself in a feat of strenght, not by a strong will...

So, I thought about a different aprouch:

Hold Person
Wiz/Sor 2, Clr 3
Save: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

Energy rings surround the target of the spell, holding him. The rings attempt to grapple the target imediatly, and don't require a touch attack to start the grapple. The rings are imune to damage.
The spells grapple check is Caster Level + Spell Level + Caster's Ability modifier (Inteligence, Charisma or Wisdom, wichever apply). The spell cannot pin or deal damage to the target. If the target manages to free from the spell's hold, the spell effect end.

So, how about that?
d_nychus
01-07-04, 09:21 AM Umm, there should be at least one round between the Hold Person and the coup de grace, because coup de grace takes a full round action. There is the off chance the opponent was in melee or otherwise close enough to enemies for a CdG to be pulled off that same round, but I personally find the timing too precise to be reliable. The 3.5 CdG is still pretty close to a save or die spell, but not nearly as much of one as 3.0.

As for your variant, I think it would be an all right spell on its own. It STILL is a save or die, in a sense (there's too many nasty things I can do to while you are immobile and denied your Dex bonus), but it just favors melee warriors over spellcasters. Hold person favors spellcasters over melee warriors.
Sir Ferdinand
01-07-04, 10:14 AM Hold Person is now pretty balanced. You can't Coup de Grace enemy on the same round as you cast Hold Person, as d_nychus said. And Hold Person has low DC as it's only 2nd/3rd level spell. It's definately much better (balanced) now than in 3rd edition.

EDIT: I said wrong level of the spell... I thought of Charm Person's level when I wrote that.
d_nychus
01-07-04, 10:24 AM Err, thanks for the back up Sir Ferdinand, but Hold Person is still level(s) that it was in 3.0, though.

Brd2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3.
(Psi)SeveredHead
01-07-04, 10:27 AM Why does this version of the spell only work on humanoids?
detectevil
01-07-04, 12:12 PM Originally posted by d_nychus
Umm, there should be at least one round between the Hold Person and the coup de grace, because coup de grace takes a full round action. There is the off chance the opponent was in melee or otherwise close enough to enemies for a CdG to be pulled off that same round, but I personally find the timing too precise to be reliable. The 3.5 CdG is still pretty close to a save or die spell, but not nearly as much of one as 3.0.
Not quite... it's now a two-saves or die spell... at best. But this considering there was no enemy near the target during casting time, wich, in an actual game, would almost never happen...

As for your variant, I think it would be an all right spell on its own. It STILL is a save or die, in a sense (there's too many nasty things I can do to while you are immobile and denied your Dex bonus), but it just favors melee warriors over spellcasters. Hold person favors spellcasters over melee warriors. Hell no! Spellcasters are already too resourceful without me granting them a spell perfect to defeat anyone who cannot be taken out by hold person.

Also, while grappled you are not so vunerable as you are helpless. You can't move, and will be sneak attacked, but can cast still spells, can escape with Escape Artist, and are not helpless...
detectevil
01-07-04, 12:17 PM Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead
Why does this version of the spell only work on humanoids? Let'd deal with that, than. Hold person becomes able to target only Medium-or smaller creatures (mostly people), grapple check to Caster Level (up to 10) + Spellcasting Ability Modifier. Hold Monster becomes able to target creatures of any size, Grapple check to Caster Level (up to 20) + Spellcasting ability modifier + 8 (Grapple Modifier of a Huge Creature)

Let's talk seriously... anyone would have one hell of a time trying to magically hold a Kraken...
Sir Ferdinand
01-07-04, 12:21 PM detectevil, so you assume that there's always your allies near the Held enemies, but those enemies never seem able to succeed in the save?

And again, if your ally is 10 ft. or more away from the enemy, it still takes two rounds to deal Coup de Grace as Coup de Grace is a full round action. Also CdG isn't instant kill, as the enemy gets to Fort. save vs. CdG, DC = 10 + damage dealt. At higher levels enemies can very well save against CdG.
BlaineTog
01-07-04, 09:55 PM 10 + Damage Dealt is unsaveable, at some point. If it's a rogue doing the CdG, then the poor, helpless humanoid will have to roll a 20.
lanilifar
01-07-04, 10:29 PM But that would have to make the spell a mind-affecting, which it is not.
Uhm, yes it is.
It is also a compulsion.
Sir Ferdinand
01-08-04, 02:45 PM 10 + Damage Dealt is unsaveable, at some point. If it's a rogue doing the CdG, then the poor, helpless humanoid will have to roll a 20.

At some point yes, but at some point just about everything is unsaveable in some way. You won't have the party's Rogue staying close to every enemy in the battle you know.
Szatany
01-08-04, 05:41 PM Hold Person
Wiz/Sor 2, Clr 3
Save: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

Energy rings surround the target of the spell, holding him. The rings attempt to grapple the target imediatly, and don't require a touch attack to start the grapple. The rings are imune to damage.
The spells grapple check is Caster Level + Spell Level + Caster's Ability modifier (Inteligence, Charisma or Wisdom, wichever apply). The spell cannot pin or deal damage to the target. If the target manages to free from the spell's hold, the spell effect end.

I would suggest making it Evocation [force] spell. Given the new description, no reason at all to consider this spell enchantment.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
detectevil 01-07-04, 09:02 AM	Hold person is a troublesome spell, isn't it? In 3.0 the spell was a will save or die, basically. After all, once you are helpless, you would get a CdG imediattly. The fix they gave it in third edition is just plain silly. You get a second will save in the next round. What next round? Once held, the target is killed on the spot. Also, there is the spell effect... some people think an energy field surrounds the target so that he can't move. Others think that it affects you nervous system, making you unable to move. Well, I would say that, with a Will saving throw, the second version seems more correct. But that would have to make the spell a mind-affecting, which it is not. And, in fiction, everytime you see some-one being caught in a similar spell, he always free himself in a feat of strenght, not by a strong will... So, I thought about a different aprouch: Hold Person Wiz/Sor 2, Clr 3 Save: None Spell Resistance: Yes Energy rings surround the target of the spell, holding him. The rings attempt to grapple the target imediatly, and don't require a touch attack to start the grapple. The rings are imune to damage. The spells grapple check is Caster Level + Spell Level + Caster's Ability modifier (Inteligence, Charisma or Wisdom, wichever apply). The spell cannot pin or deal damage to the target. If the target manages to free from the spell's hold, the spell effect end. So, how about that?
d_nychus 01-07-04, 09:21 AM	Umm, there should be at least one round between the Hold Person and the coup de grace, because coup de grace takes a full round action. There is the off chance the opponent was in melee or otherwise close enough to enemies for a CdG to be pulled off that same round, but I personally find the timing too precise to be reliable. The 3.5 CdG is still pretty close to a save or die spell, but not nearly as much of one as 3.0. As for your variant, I think it would be an all right spell on its own. It STILL is a save or die, in a sense (there's too many nasty things I can do to while you are immobile and denied your Dex bonus), but it just favors melee warriors over spellcasters. Hold person favors spellcasters over melee warriors.
Sir Ferdinand 01-07-04, 10:14 AM	Hold Person is now pretty balanced. You can't Coup de Grace enemy on the same round as you cast Hold Person, as d_nychus said. And Hold Person has low DC as it's only 2nd/3rd level spell. It's definately much better (balanced) now than in 3rd edition. EDIT: I said wrong level of the spell... I thought of Charm Person's level when I wrote that.
d_nychus 01-07-04, 10:24 AM	Err, thanks for the back up Sir Ferdinand, but Hold Person is still level(s) that it was in 3.0, though. Brd2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3.
(Psi)SeveredHead 01-07-04, 10:27 AM	Why does this version of the spell only work on humanoids?
detectevil 01-07-04, 12:12 PM	Originally posted by d_nychus Umm, there should be at least one round between the Hold Person and the coup de grace, because coup de grace takes a full round action. There is the off chance the opponent was in melee or otherwise close enough to enemies for a CdG to be pulled off that same round, but I personally find the timing too precise to be reliable. The 3.5 CdG is still pretty close to a save or die spell, but not nearly as much of one as 3.0. Not quite... it's now a two-saves or die spell... at best. But this considering there was no enemy near the target during casting time, wich, in an actual game, would almost never happen... As for your variant, I think it would be an all right spell on its own. It STILL is a save or die, in a sense (there's too many nasty things I can do to while you are immobile and denied your Dex bonus), but it just favors melee warriors over spellcasters. Hold person favors spellcasters over melee warriors. Hell no! Spellcasters are already too resourceful without me granting them a spell perfect to defeat anyone who cannot be taken out by hold person. Also, while grappled you are not so vunerable as you are helpless. You can't move, and will be sneak attacked, but can cast still spells, can escape with Escape Artist, and are not helpless...
detectevil 01-07-04, 12:17 PM	Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead Why does this version of the spell only work on humanoids? Let'd deal with that, than. Hold person becomes able to target only Medium-or smaller creatures (mostly people), grapple check to Caster Level (up to 10) + Spellcasting Ability Modifier. Hold Monster becomes able to target creatures of any size, Grapple check to Caster Level (up to 20) + Spellcasting ability modifier + 8 (Grapple Modifier of a Huge Creature) Let's talk seriously... anyone would have one hell of a time trying to magically hold a Kraken...
Sir Ferdinand 01-07-04, 12:21 PM	detectevil, so you assume that there's always your allies near the Held enemies, but those enemies never seem able to succeed in the save? And again, if your ally is 10 ft. or more away from the enemy, it still takes two rounds to deal Coup de Grace as Coup de Grace is a full round action. Also CdG isn't instant kill, as the enemy gets to Fort. save vs. CdG, DC = 10 + damage dealt. At higher levels enemies can very well save against CdG.
BlaineTog 01-07-04, 09:55 PM	10 + Damage Dealt is unsaveable, at some point. If it's a rogue doing the CdG, then the poor, helpless humanoid will have to roll a 20.
lanilifar 01-07-04, 10:29 PM	But that would have to make the spell a mind-affecting, which it is not. Uhm, yes it is. It is also a compulsion.
Sir Ferdinand 01-08-04, 02:45 PM	10 + Damage Dealt is unsaveable, at some point. If it's a rogue doing the CdG, then the poor, helpless humanoid will have to roll a 20. At some point yes, but at some point just about everything is unsaveable in some way. You won't have the party's Rogue staying close to every enemy in the battle you know.
Szatany 01-08-04, 05:41 PM	Hold Person Wiz/Sor 2, Clr 3 Save: None Spell Resistance: Yes Energy rings surround the target of the spell, holding him. The rings attempt to grapple the target imediatly, and don't require a touch attack to start the grapple. The rings are imune to damage. The spells grapple check is Caster Level + Spell Level + Caster's Ability modifier (Inteligence, Charisma or Wisdom, wichever apply). The spell cannot pin or deal damage to the target. If the target manages to free from the spell's hold, the spell effect end. I would suggest making it Evocation [force] spell. Given the new description, no reason at all to consider this spell enchantment.