Post/Author/DateTime	Post
detectevil 10-12-03, 10:41 AM	I think this would be a good way to encourage paladins to stay in the class. The holy avenger used to be a big advantage for the paladin, but in 3rd edition it became so expensive that it becomes inviable for most paladins. And a DM can't expect a LG church to be able to give up 170k in gold all the time. Ive came up with the Idea that a Holy Avenger, being a weapon specially designed for a class, could be more useful if it was less expensive. And it should be less expensive if it's powers were limited to a paladin of a ceirtain level. So, here is my though: A holy avenger is usually a long sword, though Bastard Swords, Katanas and Scimitars are also common. Other swords are pretty rare, and non-sword holy avengers have never been heard of. A holy avenger has a +1 enhancement bonus in the hands of a non-evil creature. In the hands of a paladin, however, the holy avenger have a enhancement bonus equal to one forth the paladins level (1/4 CL, as per the great magic weapon spell). Additionally, at paladin level 8 the holy avenger gains the Holy special property. At paladin level 12, it generates a permanent magic circle against evil, as the spell. At paladin level 16, it grants an aura of spell resistance 10+paladins level. At paladin level 20, it becomes able to dispel magic at will. Also, I would not know wich of the last three abilities is the most powerful(i.e. expensive), but they should be ordered from the least powerful to the more powerful, wich would make the sword less expensive. I don't know how to price such an item. Does anybody have an idea?
Lago AM3P 10-12-03, 11:56 AM	It's impossible to make such a sword and keep it balanced. Obviously, you intent for a paladin to have the option of obtaining this weapon by level 12. As we all know, level 12 characters don't have as much money as level 20 characters. So we will have to reduce the price. OTOH, if we do this, there's nothing stopping a level 20th paladin buying a 12th-level priced sword and gaining totally awesome powers at way too low of a price. If we scale it the other way, making it priced for a level 20th character, then it completely sucks because a 12th level paladin is paying out as much money as a 20th level one for a weaker weapon. The only way you can really balance this weapon is to make it a minor artifact, making it priceless. It effectively works out to taking away a paladin's weapon and giving him a new one every 4 levels, but a huge number of DMs hate artifacts for some reason.
Evanta 10-12-03, 12:03 PM	Why don't you hand out lesser holy avengers? call them holy swords or something. maybe +2 enchantment, +1d6 vs. Evil creatures, +1 to all saves vs magic? that would make it the equivalent of a +4 weapon i think
Lago AM3P 10-12-03, 12:07 PM	I think that the whole point was to have a weapon that's, like, a paladin's lifelong companion against evil that never gets abandoned and is a direct reflection of the paladin's holy power.
Evanta 10-12-03, 12:10 PM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P I think that the whole point was to have a weapon that's, like, a paladin's lifelong companion against evil that never gets abandoned and is a direct reflection of the paladin's holy power. Why not it starts out as a +1 weapon, but everytime the pally wants to 'level up' the sword, he needs to go on a geas quest sanctioned by a church to add enchantments that eventually turn it into a holy avenger?
Lago AM3P 10-12-03, 12:18 PM	Because that would make it no different from an artifact (given the fact that you need to meet several vague and undefinied roleplaying requirements to have a highly non-standard sword that isn't even uniform across the board), only that it would also cause an imposition on the other players in the party. Furthermore, that change would either really heavily hose or favor organic characters versus preconstructed characters, depending on how the DM would rule how many quests someone could have done in their career.
Evanta 10-12-03, 12:25 PM	ok. u got any bright ideas? :rolleyes:
Lago AM3P 10-12-03, 12:27 PM	Originally posted by Evanta ok. u got any bright ideas? Originally posted by Lago AM3P It's impossible to make such a sword and keep it balanced.
detectevil 10-12-03, 01:48 PM	Such a sword should not be bought, of course. Who sells an Item that is highly overpriced compared to it's usefulness to the general public, when it would only be helpful to an almost insignificat percentage of the population? Would make no sense. This is the kind of item that would have to be curtom made, or given as a reward by a cleric or another paladin. And yes, I meant for it to be a companion, and not tossed asside every now and then as it happens with most items found in dungeons. Originally posted by Evanta Why not it starts out as a +1 weapon, but everytime the pally wants to 'level up' the sword, he needs to go on a geas quest sanctioned by a church to add enchantments that eventually turn it into a holy avenger? People already think playing with a paladin in the group is a problem, because he steals the focus from the group. Imagine if every now and then he had to go on a quest to improve his sword.
Lago AM3P 10-12-03, 02:20 PM	Yeah, put it in as an artifact. Or, alternatively, you could put a Sword of Righteous Wrath (I, II, III, IV) spell on the paladin spell list. It's a one-time spell of instantaneous duration that transforms a weapon into a Holy Avenger. Of course, the Holy Avenger doesn't work when passed off to other people, and needs to be wielded. Give it a high material component cost to substitute that of buying the weapon, scale the cost upwards as the paladin increases in level. Successive castings of higher level spells negate the lower level one. There are a few problematic portions with the spell, such as it benefits dual wielding slightly more and creates problems with broken spells like 'limited wish' and 'miracle'. Will that work?
Artur King of the Britons 10-12-03, 03:01 PM	I don't know if anyones noticed but the SR of a holy avenger does get better now in 3.5 based on the paladins level, and if you give it a bane power vs. your campaign enemy (if you have one) then the swotrd will grow more powerful Just my interpratation Peace
Sir Ferdinand 10-12-03, 03:28 PM	I think this would be a good way to encourage paladins to stay in the class. I'm sorry, but if you really think Paladins aren't worth taking 20 levels already, then... well... I think you really haven't read 3.5 edition Paladin description.
Lago AM3P 10-12-03, 03:46 PM	Errr, enlighten me. What do you get after 6 levels of paladin other than tiny amounts of spellcasting and extra uses of your smite ability?
Jerks 10-12-03, 03:56 PM	If you want to scale the abilities of the Holy Avenger, just assume that the sword can be upgraded through the expediture of XP like what is done with initial magic item creation. In roleplaying terms, the paladin would imbue the sword with a part of his life essence as he increases in power. This further bonds the sword to him and in turns makes it more powerful. It would become a VERY personal item for him, and a great responsibility. By 20th level, the sword could be very powerful indeed. A caveat on this of course, could be that the sword is bound by the same oaths as the paladin. If it were stolen, and used to murder someone the god could conceivably punish the paladin with loss of abilites until he recovers the sword and rededicates it to honor/justice etc. If you want you could make the ability to scale the item an Item Creation Feat that the player would have to buy, or just assume that all paladins gain this ability as they level up. Additional restrictions could be that the sword only retains its additional abilities as long as the character is a paladin. If he/she ever strays from the path, the inner light in the weapon dims and it returns to its lesser state.
Sir Ferdinand 10-12-03, 04:02 PM	By Lago AM3P: Errr, enlighten me. What do you get after 6 levels of paladin other than tiny amounts of spellcasting and extra uses of your smite ability? As you said, you'll get more Smite Evil's per day to total of 5 per day, and that's a lot. Then you'll get more Remove Diseases per day to total of 5 per week. Then you'll get that spellcasting which really isn't minor when we're talking about spells like Bless Weapon, Divine Favor, Lesser Restoration, Bull's Strength, Eagle's Splendor, Shield Other, Heal Mount, Greater Magic Weapon, Death Ward, Holy Sword, and Restoration from core spells and Divine Sacrifice and Lesser Aspect of the Deity from Defenders of the Faith. Those are all great spells for Paladins, both combat spells and healing spells. Then there's Paladin's Mount which can be a truly fierce combatant. Just choose Dire Lion instead of Warhorse for example, and you have as strong warrior beside you than what normal same level Warrior would be, in fact even better. Also, your previous abilities get better. With 16 Cha and at 20th level your Lay on Hands ability would heal(/damage) 60 HP instead of 18 (at 6th level). Turn Undead get better and with some spells you can be very good at turning. And your Smite Evil (on top of having 5 Smites per day instead of 2 times per day) deals +20 damage with every Smite compared to +6 damage at 6th level. So at max you'll deal +100 damage (5 uses at 20th level) compared to +12 damage (2 uses at 6th level). Now can you say that there isn't a big difference there?
Lago AM3P 10-12-03, 06:25 PM	Yes, I can, but this doesn't belong on this board.
Evanta 10-12-03, 09:32 PM	You put this: Originally posted by Lago AM3P Yes, I can, but this doesn't belong on this board. When you originally asked: Originally posted by Lago AM3P Errr, enlighten me. What do you get after 6 levels of paladin other than tiny amounts of spellcasting and extra uses of your smite ability? just an observation. :rolleyes:
detectevil 10-12-03, 10:25 PM	Originally posted by Jerks assume that the sword can be upgraded through the expediture of XP Yes, that could easely stolen... did I say stolen? I meant honorably borrowed... from the samurai of Rokugan CS. But the ancestral daisho is a class ability there. I don't mean to change the paladin class. Creating four spells that permanently enchant a weapon seems ok, as long as some problems are fixed.
Seeker95 10-12-03, 10:31 PM	I really like the idea of scalable magic items in general, but have yet to find a balanced approach to the concept. Even limiting it to very specific items (like a Paladin's Holy Avenger) carries some mechanics elements that are more headache than bounty.
Lago AM3P 10-12-03, 10:40 PM	Because even I have a limit to how much I'm willing to hijack a thread with my cynical, cynical views. This is a made a kick-ass holy avenger thread.
Gamis Pfaebinn 10-13-03, 12:11 AM	Originally posted by detectevil Yes, that could easely stolen... did I say stolen? I meant honorably borrowed... from the samurai of Rokugan CS. But the ancestral daisho is a class ability there. I don't mean to change the paladin class. Creating four spells that permanently enchant a weapon seems ok, as long as some problems are fixed. I actually like the ability of borrowing ideas from the ancestral daisho for this. And it need not be a mechanic of the class; it can be strictly tied to the weapon. The idea for the spells sounds pretty good to me, too. One thing, though: maybe dispel magic should come a bit sooner. After all, as-is a paladin won't necessarily be 20th level before he aquires a holy avenger.
DarkSoldier 10-13-03, 01:34 AM	Dragon #289 has an article about creating magic weapons and armour with levels, and by spending XP on the weapon/armour, it gains new abilities.
sanishiver 10-13-03, 03:10 AM	Looks like DarkSoldier beat me to the punch. The article on Leveled Treasures is actually pretty good. I’ve used the rules from this article in my game to create a Demon Slaying rapier for a PC, that gains power as it consumes Demonic/Devilish Hit Dice. The point about allowing for a High Level Paladin to gain abilities too soon is valid. To get around this, I suggest borrowing the rules on pricing Leveled items, making it possible to avoid the “buy early, get more” scenario Lago pointed out. I also suggest borrowing rules from the article regarding “unlocking” an item’s powers. Use your list above for the levels at which new powers are gained, and assign a (cumulative) XP cost to unlock them. detectevil, feel free to email me offline at Sanishiver@hotmail.com if you have any specific questions regarding that article. :whatsthis
ManTimeForgot 10-13-03, 04:02 AM	If one uses the optional "Soul Forging" rules, can't remember exactly where that is from, a paladin could potentially customize their holy avenger according to their tastes. Soul Forging entails the expenditure of exp among other things, I don't think it requires create magic arms and armor, though I could be wrong. Basically you finally get a holy avenger, and then you spend an exp equivalent to +1 or +2 based on some formula of equivalence (I would guess that it is equal to or maybe less (llike 3gp per 1 exp) then the 5 gp for every 1 exp parity that exists in creation, but could be wrong). Now with "Soul Forging" one could add the bane power to a holy avenger, my only problem with doing something like that is what "+" is the holy avenger or any other unique magic item for that matter. Just how much can I add to a unique magic item before it should be classified as an epic item or a minor artifact. It's not that I don't mind a class specific item being a minor artifact, certainly the staff of the magi borders on that, but it does raise the issue of just how powerful can something be before it qualifies as a minor artifact, and should PCs be able to readily have these items. I would say no, but if your paladin turns out to be some sort of legendary figure, then why not let him build up his holy avenger just as part of the character. I don't see any especially compelling reason to give all paladins the ability, and on a campaign by campaign basis the ability to have a companion weapon seems like a very thematically appropriate thing to do. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
The Philosopher King 10-13-03, 08:31 AM	I haven't read the dragon article, so this may be rather similar, but: There's also the non-wotc book of eldritch might 3 (the nexus) which I believe has rules for levelling intelligent items. My paladin has such a sword. It rocks, except for the whole 'if you run away from battle at all, even falling back to the rest of your party, I'm not gonna work for a week you wuss' factor. But hey, that's my sword. your DM may not be as nasty.
detectevil 10-14-03, 10:46 AM	The problem with making it an artifact is that an artifact is created by a god. And there are very few of then. Holy Avengers are rare, but there existance is not limited. This is just my opinion, but I thing a paladin without a holy avenger is like a samurai the katana of his ancestors. And although I see a lot of similarities among samurai and paladins, the soulforging thing is too rokugani for me
Falkus 10-14-03, 05:14 PM	People already think playing with a paladin in the group is a problem, because he steals the focus from the group. Imagine if every now and then he had to go on a quest to improve his sword. Would that be any different than the party's wizard hearing about a powerful staff or wand somewhere, and wanting to go after it? Or the cleric being given a mission by his or her deity? Or the druid wanting to go and help some forest dwelling beings who were being slaughtered by an Orcish army which was clear-cutting the forest to make siege weapons?
aeon001 10-15-03, 02:03 AM	yes it would be different, see in the other classes, it would be an adventure, it would fun and most off all it would rewarding for the classes involved. In the case of the paladin questing for his holy avenger, it would be boring, it would be one sided as only the paladin could do anything, get anything and even want to go get it. I mean come on, spells, magic staffs, Forests!!! think of the elves man!.. We can all see how much excitment questing for any of those things would be. Want a sword quest for a paladin? It's called go to the store! they have swords there. What, no holy avengers? Whats the difference, the pointy end goes into the fleshy end, not too hard to figure out. So while forests are in danger, and ancient powerful magic items lay in wait in some trap infested dungeon and good deeds need being done, all the paladin can think of is questing for some silly sword that stabs things but won't accept the nice sword I found at the smiths that does the same thing... Paladins like this sound like they won't be paladins for long...
detectevil 10-17-03, 01:45 PM	Also a valid point. In adition, a wizard, cleric or druid can create their own magic staffs now. The paladin depends on the cleric. Having this quest things is a bad concept, because if it doesn't fit the DM's campaign, you can't go on it.
Falkus 10-17-03, 03:10 PM	In the case of the paladin questing for his holy avenger, it would be boring, it would be one sided as only the paladin could do anything, get anything and even want to go get it. And can you name any possible reason as to why the quest would only involve the paladin, and only require his skills to beat it, rather than teamwork with him and his companions? And why there would be no other possible reward in the quest for his companions? Want a sword quest for a paladin? It's called go to the store! they have swords there. What, no holy avengers? Whats the difference, the pointy end goes into the fleshy end, not too hard to figure out. Riiiight. Have you got any serious rebuttals to my point? So while forests are in danger, and ancient powerful magic items lay in wait in some trap infested dungeon and good deeds need being done, all the paladin can think of is questing for some silly sword that stabs things but won't accept the nice sword I found at the smiths that does the same thing... And why do you imagine that the quests would have to avoid these areas? Having this quest things is a bad concept, because if it doesn't fit the DM's campaign, you can't go on it. If it doesn't fit the campaign concept you don't use it, but you can't deny that if it does fit it is a valid method. I'm not saying make it a hard rule or anything.
Dunbar 10-17-03, 04:03 PM	Originally posted by detectevil The problem with making it an artifact is that an artifact is created by a god. And there are very few of then. Holy Avengers are rare, but there existance is not limited. This is just my opinion, but I thing a paladin without a holy avenger is like a samurai the katana of his ancestors. And although I see a lot of similarities among samurai and paladins, the soulforging thing is too rokugani for me If this is true for you, then why not make the holy avenger sword a class ability for the paladin? So starting at level (whatever works for you), the paladin gets a holy avenger sword. Maybe he has to quest for it, or maybe he has a vision, wakes up in the middle of the night, goes to a nearby pond and a watery tart lobs a scimitar at him. Whatever works best for the DM. This way you avoid having to price the item, as pricing a leveled weapon is impossible really. And you avoid the whole soul-forging mechanic. So every few levels the holy avenger gains new abilities and what not. And the sword only functions for the paladin to whom it is given, and only as long as that character doesn't become an ex-paladin.
Lago AM3P 10-17-03, 05:45 PM	Dunbar's idea makes a lot of sense.
detectevil 10-18-03, 04:40 PM	yes, that would be great. But woudn't be considered unbalanced to give the paladin another class ability like this? A magic item that grows in level and a class ability that does the same are very similar, but with a magic item it is up to the DM to give it to him or not. It's not like that with a class ability.
Jerks 10-19-03, 11:34 AM	I hate to mix editions, but the gaining of a holy avenger used to be a class ability. It wasn't required, but it did state that after XX levels, the paladin had the opportunity to gain a holy avenger. So Dunbar's ideal makes a lot of sense. Definitely more sense than a paladin questing for said holy avenger, then abandoning it when the going gets tough.