A Lich, A Clone, And A PC [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Lich, A Clone, And A PC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JKnight
02-23-05, 10:42 PM Howdy and salutations.

I have a most worthy question of the good scholars here.

One of my characters transformed himself into a lich after much fanfare.

He had a clone, from the clone spell, waiting in the wings.

What happens to the clone? Does anything happen?

I just don't know.

JK
PhaedrusXY
02-23-05, 11:01 PM The way I'd work it is if he is destroyed but his phylactery is intact, he just reforms as normal for a lich. If he's destroyed, and his phylactery is destroyed, he awakens in the Cloned body. I plan on using this with an NPC lich, actually... (an NPC that likes to use Magic Jar. so the PCs will have to find her real body first, before they can destroy it. :P )
Omadon
02-23-05, 11:39 PM I would make a special ruling in this case for the sake of game balance.

1. The bond between the phylactery is stronger than that to a clone. Any clones in existence during a lich's ascension become inert.

2. A clone cannot be grown by a lich in the traditional sense because the rules state:

To create the duplicate, you must have a piece of flesh (not hair, nails, scales, or the like) with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature’s living body

3. I would perhaps offer a new 8th level spell at the lich's next level of arcane spellcaster advancement called something like "<insert your lich's name here>'s Preparatory Binding" which would basically be a clone spell for all intents and purposes but would simply prepare a recepticle body for the phylactery to reincarnate the lich into. The effects of the spell would grant you the ability to have a preferred host (in a preferred location) to return into. I would also have the spell either half the time (d10 days to d10/2 days) it takes to come back after being destroyed.

I would not allow the clone spell to circumvent or otherwise diminish the importance of the lich's phylactery.
GreyGriffin
02-24-05, 02:23 AM Man, I thought this was going to be a joke where they all walked into a bar.
Tenier
02-24-05, 03:09 AM Man, I thought this was going to be a joke where they all walked into a bar.

Me too :P
PhaedrusXY
02-24-05, 03:19 AM I would not allow the clone spell to circumvent or otherwise diminish the importance of the lich's phylactery.I don't think my interpretation does this, either. The lich will always return to his phylactery and reform as a lich, as long as his phylactery exists. The bond between his soul and the phylactery is much stronger than the bond between his soul and the clone. But if the phylactery is destroyed, then the soul would go to the clone.

I also don't see how this is overpowered, really. I mean.... the guy is already a lich! He can't be killed at all, unless his enemies manage to find a tiny little, non-magical object that he can hide and protect really, really well, and he doesn't have to keep it on himself. It doesn't even need to be on the same plane of existence! The clone spell isn't anywhere near that powerful. And the lich having a clone is really no different than a normal wizard having one, if his phylactery is destroyed. If his phylactery isn't destroyed, then the clone is a non-issue.

I agree that the lich shouldn't be able to make a clone of himself after he goes through the transformation, but this guy had a clone already. Making a clone isn't really cheap. Why cheat him out of it? He paid for it.
ceord
02-24-05, 03:30 PM liches are undead. So, 'not alive', therefore, 'dead'..sort of.

When the transformation to become a lich completes, he 'dies'. but, since he is undead now (and not destroyed), life restoring spells will fail. The clone is triggered, but fails. (Keep this in mind when a wizard with his clone insurance is killed by a spawning undead: if the transformation is instant, the clone will fail; if there is a delay in the transformation then the clone will prevent that...however, if the death was from energy drain, I think the clone becomes the new 'dead body' and still transforms - campaigns may differ on this tricky one).

Since clone requires living tissue, of which he is fresh out, he cannot start another clone.
Omadon
02-26-05, 02:51 AM I just think that if you manage to destroy a lich's phlactery, you shouldn't have to worry about another backup plan. It's safe to assume, "you got em." Maybe let him use the clone once if he already had it in play but honestly, if the character is a lich, why would he want to use the clone considering the penalties it gives?
PhaedrusXY
02-26-05, 03:03 AM but honestly, if the character is a lich, why would he want to use the clone considering the penalties it gives?Because otherwise he's permanently dead? Coming back as a living creature with one less level seems preferable to me. ;) I guess he could also have a cleric Res or True Res him if he'd been permanently destroyed, but it would be funner if you didn't have to resort to that.

I do believe that ceord's answer was very well thought out and stated, though. I agree that the clone should probably become inert, but I'm not sure which I'll go with in my games. It's fun to make your players do a double take. "What do you mean the lich isn't really dead?" :P
Vatras
02-26-05, 03:04 AM I would rule with PhaedrusXY. My reasoning is, that you have to become a lich of your own free will. Therefore your wish and the binding of ritual and phylactery are stronger than the tug of animalic magnetism of your body, and the soul ends up in the jar. Thereafter things would progress likewise: the soul is now irrevocably bound to the phylactery and will go there and not to the clone, reanimating the lich later on.
If you say instead, the call of the body for its soul is stronger than the ritual, then your soul goes to the clone, making the ritual fail (as there is now no soul in the phylactery), leaving only a corpse, while your clone awakens.
Ginyu549
03-06-05, 02:38 PM IMO I would think that the lich would re-form with the power of the phylactory unless it was destroyed, in which case it would use the clone body, but, as the clone was of the PC when they were not a lich, then the PC is not a lich anymore. No phylactory, not undead = not a lich. They would have to go through the process of becomming a lich again. Note that this could come in really useful if for some reason the player neede to "live" again, or something.
PhaedrusXY
03-06-05, 04:19 PM IMO I would think that the lich would re-form with the power of the phylactory unless it was destroyed, in which case it would use the clone body, but, as the clone was of the PC when they were not a lich, then the PC is not a lich anymore. No phylactory, not undead = not a lich. They would have to go through the process of becomming a lich again. Note that this could come in really useful if for some reason the player neede to "live" again, or something.This is what I meant originally. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JKnight 02-23-05, 10:42 PM	Howdy and salutations. I have a most worthy question of the good scholars here. One of my characters transformed himself into a lich after much fanfare. He had a clone, from the clone spell, waiting in the wings. What happens to the clone? Does anything happen? I just don't know. JK
PhaedrusXY 02-23-05, 11:01 PM	The way I'd work it is if he is destroyed but his phylactery is intact, he just reforms as normal for a lich. If he's destroyed, and his phylactery is destroyed, he awakens in the Cloned body. I plan on using this with an NPC lich, actually... (an NPC that likes to use Magic Jar. so the PCs will have to find her real body first, before they can destroy it. :P )
Omadon 02-23-05, 11:39 PM	I would make a special ruling in this case for the sake of game balance. 1. The bond between the phylactery is stronger than that to a clone. Any clones in existence during a lich's ascension become inert. 2. A clone cannot be grown by a lich in the traditional sense because the rules state: To create the duplicate, you must have a piece of flesh (not hair, nails, scales, or the like) with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature’s living body 3. I would perhaps offer a new 8th level spell at the lich's next level of arcane spellcaster advancement called something like "<insert your lich's name here>'s Preparatory Binding" which would basically be a clone spell for all intents and purposes but would simply prepare a recepticle body for the phylactery to reincarnate the lich into. The effects of the spell would grant you the ability to have a preferred host (in a preferred location) to return into. I would also have the spell either half the time (d10 days to d10/2 days) it takes to come back after being destroyed. I would not allow the clone spell to circumvent or otherwise diminish the importance of the lich's phylactery.
GreyGriffin 02-24-05, 02:23 AM	Man, I thought this was going to be a joke where they all walked into a bar.
Tenier 02-24-05, 03:09 AM	Man, I thought this was going to be a joke where they all walked into a bar. Me too :P
PhaedrusXY 02-24-05, 03:19 AM	I would not allow the clone spell to circumvent or otherwise diminish the importance of the lich's phylactery.I don't think my interpretation does this, either. The lich will always return to his phylactery and reform as a lich, as long as his phylactery exists. The bond between his soul and the phylactery is much stronger than the bond between his soul and the clone. But if the phylactery is destroyed, then the soul would go to the clone. I also don't see how this is overpowered, really. I mean.... the guy is already a lich! He can't be killed at all, unless his enemies manage to find a tiny little, non-magical object that he can hide and protect really, really well, and he doesn't have to keep it on himself. It doesn't even need to be on the same plane of existence! The clone spell isn't anywhere near that powerful. And the lich having a clone is really no different than a normal wizard having one, if his phylactery is destroyed. If his phylactery isn't destroyed, then the clone is a non-issue. I agree that the lich shouldn't be able to make a clone of himself after he goes through the transformation, but this guy had a clone already. Making a clone isn't really cheap. Why cheat him out of it? He paid for it.
ceord 02-24-05, 03:30 PM	liches are undead. So, 'not alive', therefore, 'dead'..sort of. When the transformation to become a lich completes, he 'dies'. but, since he is undead now (and not destroyed), life restoring spells will fail. The clone is triggered, but fails. (Keep this in mind when a wizard with his clone insurance is killed by a spawning undead: if the transformation is instant, the clone will fail; if there is a delay in the transformation then the clone will prevent that...however, if the death was from energy drain, I think the clone becomes the new 'dead body' and still transforms - campaigns may differ on this tricky one). Since clone requires living tissue, of which he is fresh out, he cannot start another clone.
Omadon 02-26-05, 02:51 AM	I just think that if you manage to destroy a lich's phlactery, you shouldn't have to worry about another backup plan. It's safe to assume, "you got em." Maybe let him use the clone once if he already had it in play but honestly, if the character is a lich, why would he want to use the clone considering the penalties it gives?
PhaedrusXY 02-26-05, 03:03 AM	but honestly, if the character is a lich, why would he want to use the clone considering the penalties it gives?Because otherwise he's permanently dead? Coming back as a living creature with one less level seems preferable to me. ;) I guess he could also have a cleric Res or True Res him if he'd been permanently destroyed, but it would be funner if you didn't have to resort to that. I do believe that ceord's answer was very well thought out and stated, though. I agree that the clone should probably become inert, but I'm not sure which I'll go with in my games. It's fun to make your players do a double take. "What do you mean the lich isn't really dead?" :P
Vatras 02-26-05, 03:04 AM	I would rule with PhaedrusXY. My reasoning is, that you have to become a lich of your own free will. Therefore your wish and the binding of ritual and phylactery are stronger than the tug of animalic magnetism of your body, and the soul ends up in the jar. Thereafter things would progress likewise: the soul is now irrevocably bound to the phylactery and will go there and not to the clone, reanimating the lich later on. If you say instead, the call of the body for its soul is stronger than the ritual, then your soul goes to the clone, making the ritual fail (as there is now no soul in the phylactery), leaving only a corpse, while your clone awakens.
Ginyu549 03-06-05, 02:38 PM	IMO I would think that the lich would re-form with the power of the phylactory unless it was destroyed, in which case it would use the clone body, but, as the clone was of the PC when they were not a lich, then the PC is not a lich anymore. No phylactory, not undead = not a lich. They would have to go through the process of becomming a lich again. Note that this could come in really useful if for some reason the player neede to "live" again, or something.
PhaedrusXY 03-06-05, 04:19 PM	IMO I would think that the lich would re-form with the power of the phylactory unless it was destroyed, in which case it would use the clone body, but, as the clone was of the PC when they were not a lich, then the PC is not a lich anymore. No phylactory, not undead = not a lich. They would have to go through the process of becomming a lich again. Note that this could come in really useful if for some reason the player neede to "live" again, or something.This is what I meant originally. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough...