Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zamil77 06-05-05, 10:29 PM	Okay, so a Miracle was cast in our last session. It was determined that the caster would like to cast an antimagic field, 6th level spell by her domain; however, the caviot here is that the caster wanted to specify another player was the target instead of herself. The DM REALLY didn't like this, as it was the perfect debuff against the devil attacking the party from the depths of hell. Therefore, he imposed the 5000XP penalty stating that this was not a spell that existed, because the target was changed from Personal, to Close range. I am trying to make an argument for the player so they can get their 5000XP back, because I think that that is a crock of SHHHHHT. Does anyone know of any Metamagic that can make the targeting type change from one type of target to another? Such as from Personal to You? I know I've seen something somewhere that allowed a caster of some type to cast spells on another creature with the range Personal...and I'm not thinking of Familiars and their masters....I'm thinking a feat or spell or something. Let me know, quickly! Basically, I'm lookin for a feat that might raise the level of the spell two levels, because if so, then that would be an effective 8th level spell from her spell list, and it would be in-line with casting an 8th level Cleric spell as a 6th level cleric spell with a 2 lvl metamagic slot enhancement. anyone care to help me out here????? Maybe it was in Expanded Psionics? Somewhere, I know it, I hate it when this happens...
Jaid 06-05-05, 10:51 PM	closest i can think of is the sangehirn PrC in Mind's Eye. let's you use a few self-only powers (ie healing ones) on others. but that's a Prestige class ability, and it only works on healing stuff. you could also look towards duplicating a beholder's antimagic ray ability with the feat from Lords of Madness. that's about all i can think of...
Scifione 06-05-05, 10:55 PM	The DM REALLY didn't like this, as it was the perfect debuff against the devil attacking the party from the depths of hell. Therefore, he imposed the 5000XP penalty stating that this was not a spell that existed, because the target was changed from Personal, to Close range. I have to agree with your DM. This is the equivalent of turning the tide of battle.
Someone 06-05-05, 11:02 PM	If the player was using a miracle to debuff the target, I think a better spell to try to reproduce would be disjunction. Though that's a 9th level arcane spell, a bit outside the "basic" miracle. Maybe as a Greater Dispell Magic heightened to 8th level, or with a bonus on the caster check. But I agree, asking your deity to suppress the dastardly magic of your opponent, if only for a short time, shouldn't count as a great request. Suppressing the magic of your enemies across an entire battlefield, yes, but not for just one target.
runestar 06-05-05, 11:17 PM	I am really not a fan of using wish or miracle to duplicate a metamagicked spell, mainly because the save dc still remains at 19+main casting stat mod, rather than 10+original spell's lv + stat mod. I could have limited wish duplicate a max+empowered ray of enfeeblement with a free auto-heighten built in. I apologise since this is obviously not the answer you are looking for. I also have no idea what feat you are talking about. The chosest solution I have would be to widen the field then use sculpt spell or something to create a hole for you to stand in.
was_fired 06-05-05, 11:18 PM	For targetting another person with AMF I agree with your DM. That is a greater request as it is beyond any of the lesser uses of miracle. This did not duplicate a cleric spell of 8th level or lower (AMF is normally a 8th level spell), this did not duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower, this did not remove a harmful effect such as feeblemind or insanity. In short your DM was right.
The Simbul 06-05-05, 11:40 PM	I agree with your DM, except on one additional issue; The Antimagic Effect created by the Miracle should have also been negated by a Will save and/or by spell resistance, in addition to costing 5,000XP. No spell in the game allows you to cast a targeted (i.e. not an area) Antimagic effect on an enemy without resorting to a touch attack (and a will save, and SR). Furthermore even if a feat did allow you to cast a personal range spell on a touched target, I would require that the target be willing, since personal range spells are supposed to be beneficial and not baleful. I would allow well worded Wish spell (or a Miracle if the Deity has the magic domain) to create a temporary Antimagic area (10-30ft radius) centered on a specific point rather than the caster, but in that instance the NPC would have the ability to leave the area just as they would be able to leave any other Antimagic Field.
Nyat 06-05-05, 11:55 PM	Draconomicon, Antimagic Ray the creature hit is affected by an antimagic field that effects no one else (although he can't be hit by other spells as if he were in a field) its a 7th level arcane spell with a 100gp material component. That works doesn't it?
The Simbul 06-06-05, 12:10 AM	Draconomicon, Antimagic Ray the creature hit is affected by an antimagic field that effects no one else (although he can't be hit by other spells as if he were in a field) its a 7th level arcane spell with a 100gp material component. That works doesn't it?Antimagic Ray is negated by a will saving throw, spell resistance, and requires a ranged touch attack. A "Devil from the Depths of hell" is most likely capable of succeeding all three against most equal level opponents, given their powerful ability scores, perfect save progression, and spell resistance. In addition, Antimagic Ray does nothing against your items or equipment, an effect which (aside from being silly) in turn allows you to escape should you have any magic item that can accomplish that. A Miracle that places the effects of an actual Antimagic Field spell around another creature doesnt have any of those limitations. Edit: On a side note, I would also like to point out that because Antimagic Ray is technically listed as a "Target: Creature" spell instead of an "Effect: Ray" spell, it is entirely vulnerable to Spell Turning whereas virtually any other ray effect in the game isnt, although the erroneous spell header isnt suprising when it comes from the same book that gave us the pointless saving throw entry for Lower Resistance .
Nyat 06-06-05, 12:18 AM	I suppose thats true (although SR is easily overcome with Assay Resistance) But why does it say (object) next to the save and SR? I've always wondered that, and in the text it only mentions needing a save when targeting objects, I'm not sure what the deal is with that.
The Simbul 06-06-05, 12:24 AM	I suppose thats true (although SR is easily overcome with Assay Resistance) But why does it say (object) next to the save and SR? I've always wondered that, and in the text it only mentions needing a save when targeting objects, I'm not sure what the deal is with that. "(object)" means the effect can target objects, and that the object gets a saving throw if it is magical or is attended. It doesnt mean that the saving throw only applies for objects.
Nyat 06-06-05, 12:27 AM	Gotcha, just thought it looked weird. I never really knew why some spells had (object)
Scifione 06-06-05, 12:30 AM	Draconomicon, Antimagic Ray the creature hit is affected by an antimagic field that effects no one else (although he can't be hit by other spells as if he were in a field) its a 7th level arcane spell with a 100gp material component. That works doesn't it? Depends on how the player worded the miracle or the request and the DMs interpratation of that request. The people I play with normaly say the spell when they want to duplicate a spell. He did not say anything about a save, SR, or a ranged tough attack.
SambleBamble 06-06-05, 02:48 AM	I agree with your DM, except on one additional issue; The Antimagic Effect created by the Miracle should have also been negated by a Will save and/or by spell resistance, in addition to costing 5,000XP. No spell in the game allows you to cast a targeted (i.e. not an area) Antimagic effect on an enemy without resorting to a touch attack... Based on the original post, the player targeted an ally, not the enemy. So any issues of saves are moot. Sounds like the caster put the AMF on the tank instead of himself. So, it's still better than duplicating AMF, but not by a huge amount. Assuming the caster has the magic domain, AMF is a level 6 spell for him, so conferring it to another isn't that much of a stretch.
was_fired 06-06-05, 04:32 AM	Heh yeah sorry I agree on the saving throw. At first I thought he hit his ally with AMF which then supressed the enemies magical effects.
Blackwind 06-06-05, 04:49 AM	I'm siding with the DM. I mean you shouldn't cast Miracle or Wish if there are any other options. If the DM really was a jerk the spell could have done nothing. If he wants to gain the exp back then go on a quest fo his church cause now he owes the god a favor. What kind of Devil was it anyway?
Will Brandiman 06-06-05, 04:59 AM	I believe that Magic of Faerun has a spell called Anti-magic Aura that pretty much does exactly what the caster wants. Not sure what type/level it is though.
kirbykel 06-06-05, 05:09 AM	Hmm... Ever thought about using a ring of spell storing or an ioun stone that stores up to 6 level of spell to transfer the anti-magic shell. K.
The.Vortex 06-06-05, 05:22 AM	I believe that Magic of Faerun has a spell called Anti-magic Aura that pretty much does exactly what the caster wants. Not sure what type/level it is though. Antimagic Aura is a Level 7 Sorc/Wiz Spell with a range of touch, which is similar to AMF, but the main difference is, that it has no area of effect, and thus only the touched creature is protected against all magic and cannot cast anything.. And to get this spell to close range instead of touch, you need the Metamagic Reach Spell Feat from Defenders of Faith (I think it was never reprinted for 3.5).. it allows you to cast touch spells at range with a ranged touch attack.. IMO there is no feat that allows Personal Spells to be cast on anyone else..
zamil77 06-06-05, 10:18 PM	I thank you all very much for you input. However, there are a couple things that most of you are basing your opinioins upon. Only a few people seemed to realize that she, one has the Magic Domain making it a 6th level spell for her, and two asked to cast the spell on her ALLY who willingly accepted it instead of herself. Now, do you still think that this request of a Miracle is worth 5000XP? To cast an on her spell list 6th level spell with a targeting change?
The.Vortex 06-07-05, 05:17 AM	OK, a basic AMF is Level 6 for you.. Looking at Reach Spell which changes from Touch to Ray (30') which would cost 2 Levels, I guess, a cahnge from Personal (worse than touch) to Short (better than Ray, since no roll is needed) would be at least 3 levels of increase.. that makes the spell you request at least level 9 and thus beyond the limits of a XP free Miracle.. But it is probably not as powerfull as the examples listed with XP cost, so I would use a lower cost, maybe 500 or 1000 XP, certainly not 5000!