A Necromancer Wizard needs help... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Necromancer Wizard needs help... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jonny Reload
12-21-04, 10:22 PM Ok, obviously at first glance the Wizard is outgunned by the Cleric when it comes to being a Necromancer that wants hordes of the undead at his disposal. (Especially with Rebuking checks) but I wanted to know...

1. Are there any Undead/Golem creation spells or anything that would help a Necromancer build an undead army?

2. Are there any spells that help modify or enhance the undead under your control (Namely skeletons or zombies)

3. How exactly could a Necromancer have the service of a Lich or a Mummy under his army without the threat of getting his throat ripped out by backstabbing politicking.
taltamir
12-21-04, 10:27 PM mmm... you mean wizards can actually raise the dead? (joke)

As far as I could tell necromancer wizards are oriented towards spell that cause death and harm. and not towards raising an army of the dead. I see alot of focus on spells that instakill, and spells that drain the target of life, levels, and ability points.

Ofcourse, clerics might have simmilar spells (not sure), but thats cause clerics ARE gods in the game, they are INTENTIONALLY much more powerful, to offset the fact that they have to adhere to a higher being controlling much of their actions.
Mongoose4937
12-21-04, 10:47 PM You want a horde of undead? Here's how you do it: You'll need four books: the PhB, DmG, MM and Libris Mortis.

1. Take the Leadership feat.
2. For your followers, use skeletons and zombies. If you're not sure about the ECLs, Libris Mortis has a chart.
3. For your cohort, don't take some big badass vampire or anything of the sort, instead, take a human necromancer.
4. Have him take the leadership feat, with another human necromancer.
5. Repeat.
6. Find a Cleric necromancer and use the spell Dominate Person on him. Now aren't you glad that you're a wizard and not a cleric? Just do one or two this way, and keep them close, due to the spells range. Extend Spell helps with this. You can now use their controlled undead from both rebuking attempts and Animate Dead. Make sure you recast your Dominate Person every so many days.

Between the followers from the leadership feat, your cohort's controlled undead, your dominated cleric's undead and the undead you can have controlled from your own Animate Dead spell, you'll have a crapload of sketons and zombies running around. If you want a lich/vampire, just cast Control Undead and tell them to stand still while the Cleric rebukes until he can control the creature (This requires a powerful cleric or a weak vampire, but it's possible.) Wraiths and other spawning undead are perfect to do with this.

It's a bit complicated, and it has it's weaknesses, but there you have it, huge army of the undead, right at your disposal.
Jonny Reload
12-21-04, 11:01 PM Ehhh, I was more looking to have the horde of undead under MY control, not the control of who'm I'm controlling. That leaves a huge gap to a hero who studies you and finds out you have weak links in your chain of command that if taken out, your army crumbles.

Is there anyway to make skeletons... Mages? (Have skeletons that can Animate Dead as well?)
Bane
12-21-04, 11:24 PM Take levels of Pale Master, from Libris Mortis. Take the feat Fell Animate, and whichever feats you want from the corpsecrafter group. I like nimble bones myself. Now throw Animating fireballs around in some thorp no one cares about, and use control undead. You now have your army.

Liches are too powerful and too crafty to serve you. You'll end up dead or worse. Mummies aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, so you should be able to thwart any plans they have to seize power from you.
Melpomene
12-21-04, 11:35 PM Is there anyway to make skeletons... Mages? (Have skeletons that can Animate Dead as well?)

Yes. You apply the Bone template from BoVD to a wizard. However, you couldn't make them using conventional magic.

As for controlling undead, I'm going to pimp my old concept of buying/trading/blackmailing undead HD from other wizards.
taltamir
12-21-04, 11:43 PM Dont forget a lich IS a great necromancer, in fact you should be aspiring as a necromancer to become one some day.

I would go with a custom setting of convincing your DM to allow it. Basically insetad of the checks and balances of having a limit on how many undead you control based on level/whatever, there will be the checks and balances of "if you raise too many people will take notice and you will have an army of paladins to take care of". This way you can have great necromancers holding out domains in which they have thosands of undead. And you can have bastions of "good" rallying to fight them. This can make for an AWESOME setting IMAO.
Doug McCrae
12-21-04, 11:47 PM Command Undead. There's no limit on the HD of unintelligent undead you can control with it, except the 1 day/level duration. Maybe even Chain Spell it if you want to go completely nuts.
Melpomene
12-21-04, 11:53 PM I'v never been partial to the litch template. I would only recomend it to a spellcaster who was about to die of old age, and probably not even then.
taltamir
12-21-04, 11:54 PM He obviously wants to control them PERMANENTLY.

This inability is exactly why I never bothered playing a necromancer... whats the point if you dont actually raise the dead to make your own undead army... Its build on dungeon delving mechanics instead of roleplay mechanics.

Although... if you want permanent ones.. maybe require some special circumstances.. like semi expansive material components, OR a ritual that requires you to be the one who kills the person... (make for excellent roleplay there, evading the law and those who are curious about where people disappear to)
ronyon
12-22-04, 12:52 AM Wizards get animate dead at 4th level, until then buy scrolls, wands, even oils.
Control undead is temporary, but it rocks. All of my NecroClerics scheme to get it!
There is a durid spell that lets the druid rebuke .Look at it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a)
Research it for your wizzie.
Use the summon undead spells(they are arcane as well as divine, right?)
Summon a spawning undead and give it a victem. The summoned creature leaves a new spawn behind(control undead it!)
Use craft contingent spell on your important high level undead, and set up a web of reoccuring control undead.
Awaken your undead. Befriend them and encourage them to become Warlocks.
SpellStitch your skeletons with animate dead( not sure if too high a spell level)
Get a stitched flesh maggot as your familier( both things increase your Hd of control)
Make a Simulacrums of any strong necromancer, have them animate dead up to their limit, and turn them over to you( order them to follow your voice commands) Then polymorp any object them into something handy and keep them on your person(simulacrums are notoriously fragil)
This http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4594808&postcount=46 entry lists some newer spells for creation/control
Later...
taltamir
12-22-04, 12:59 AM if the lich template sucks, it needs fixing.

Lichdom should be what necromancers strive for, not a MOB.

I would also require that part of the procedure to become a necromancer would involve some horrible acts... like sacrificing children or something.

PS.
With awaken undead you CAN have your own army of undead... I am your creator, I am your master, you shall obey me or be destroyed by my countless thralls... Repeat.

Make a whole society of undead under your command, have them police eachother and make sure they are all obedient to you at all time. As long as you give enough perks to the more powerful ones... ;p
Bloodtide_the_Red
12-22-04, 02:26 AM 1.There are plenty of spells that let you create undead and they are Core too. As for Golems and other constructs, you can make and control any amount of them, you just can't make them with spells...takes a bit more then that.
1A.In order to have an army, you will need a general, captians, and other such 'officer' types. You don't personaly command every grunt in the army, you give the order to the commanders and they command the troops. And you do want it that way too.
Consider. If only you control the army, they are just a mob and can only do what you tell them too. So you have to watch, react and control every part of the battle. And you can only take so many actions a round. So you take half your army and attack a town, telling the rest of them to wait on the other side of the hill. If the battle goes against you, you personaly have to leave the battle and go back and get your army. If you have a intelligent undead commander ewatching from nearby..he can go 'we must go help our master' and send reforcments.
And, naturaly, if something happens to you, your army is toast.

2.Just about any spell that does not have a target of 'living creature' can effect undead. You can cast Mass Bull's Strgenth on a group of skeletons, for example. If your takling about permently...you can always give your undead magic items, a skeleton can wear a ring of protection, for example. Some books have undead bootsing spells, but nothing that last forever.
There is one sneak trick. Polymorph any object. You can permently polymorph a skeleton into...well almost anything. Though it's not so clear if you'd still be able to control it, that would be a DM's call. A nice DM may let you add any of the undead templates to a skeleton with Polymoroh any Object and still keep control of them.
3.Nothing is foolproof. Good or bad guys, you always have to worry about politics and backstabbing.

BT
ronyon
12-22-04, 09:10 PM Bloodtide has some great ideas, and excellent points.Im not sure if it is a wizard spell, but Chain of Eyes is a great battlefeild command and control spell, especially if you have a flying minion.It allows you to touch a creature and then see thru its eyes. Every time that creature touches another, it can "pass" the effect on, if you wish.It lasts for hours per level...
KP91
12-22-04, 09:15 PM 1.Libris Mortis
2.Libris Mortis
3.No
Jonny Reload
12-23-04, 09:46 PM 1.Libris Mortis
2.Libris Mortis
3.No

Ummm, I've read Libris Mortis, I didn't know they made a Cleric's book for the Undead... OH WAIT, they have a crappy prestiege class for wizards! Yay! :rolleyes:

Dude, that book is so wizard unfriendly it's not even funny. The only good stuff a Wizard could gather from that book are the feats. The spells are worthless for a Necromancer who wants an undead army. I'm still wondering why there hasn't been a cannon spell to animate something on a smaller level for 1st-3rd level spells for Wizards.
beaver1024
12-24-04, 01:00 AM Ummm, I've read Libris Mortis, I didn't know they made a Cleric's book for the Undead... OH WAIT, they have a crappy prestiege class for wizards! Yay! :rolleyes:

Dude, that book is so wizard unfriendly it's not even funny. The only good stuff a Wizard could gather from that book are the feats. The spells are worthless for a Necromancer who wants an undead army. I'm still wondering why there hasn't been a cannon spell to animate something on a smaller level for 1st-3rd level spells for Wizards.

Because in DnD 3.5 clerics are better necromancers than necromancers, better diviners than diviners, better summoners than conjurors, better fighters than fighters etc etc. This is how the desingers intended it to be because they wanted to encourage more people to play clerics so they intentionally unbalanced the class. If you don't like it, I suggest heavy house ruling.
taltamir
12-24-04, 04:00 PM Because in DnD 3.5 clerics are better necromancers than necromancers, better diviners than diviners, better summoners than conjurors, better fighters than fighters etc etc. This is how the desingers intended it to be because they wanted to encourage more people to play clerics so they intentionally unbalanced the class. If you don't like it, I suggest heavy house ruling.

Thats about it. Noone played a cleric before... even now when clerics are walking gods, not many plays them (then again, that might be a GOOD thing since its so much cheeze + not good roleplaying... Usually the cleric in most groups I am in is the 6 int half orc megadestroyer munchikin)

I don't know why they even BOTHERED making a paladin class, since a cleric is better then them at every single aspect.
Jonny Reload
12-24-04, 09:57 PM The funiest thing is I use to play a Cleric ALL the time (I mean a good indepth role played one, not just a uber cheese munchkin.) Wow, this is really sad. The day a Cleric makes a better Necromancer then a Necromancer.
taltamir
12-25-04, 07:48 PM Houserules, houserules are the only way to go.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jonny Reload 12-21-04, 10:22 PM	Ok, obviously at first glance the Wizard is outgunned by the Cleric when it comes to being a Necromancer that wants hordes of the undead at his disposal. (Especially with Rebuking checks) but I wanted to know... 1. Are there any Undead/Golem creation spells or anything that would help a Necromancer build an undead army? 2. Are there any spells that help modify or enhance the undead under your control (Namely skeletons or zombies) 3. How exactly could a Necromancer have the service of a Lich or a Mummy under his army without the threat of getting his throat ripped out by backstabbing politicking.
taltamir 12-21-04, 10:27 PM	mmm... you mean wizards can actually raise the dead? (joke) As far as I could tell necromancer wizards are oriented towards spell that cause death and harm. and not towards raising an army of the dead. I see alot of focus on spells that instakill, and spells that drain the target of life, levels, and ability points. Ofcourse, clerics might have simmilar spells (not sure), but thats cause clerics ARE gods in the game, they are INTENTIONALLY much more powerful, to offset the fact that they have to adhere to a higher being controlling much of their actions.
Mongoose4937 12-21-04, 10:47 PM	You want a horde of undead? Here's how you do it: You'll need four books: the PhB, DmG, MM and Libris Mortis. 1. Take the Leadership feat. 2. For your followers, use skeletons and zombies. If you're not sure about the ECLs, Libris Mortis has a chart. 3. For your cohort, don't take some big badass vampire or anything of the sort, instead, take a human necromancer. 4. Have him take the leadership feat, with another human necromancer. 5. Repeat. 6. Find a Cleric necromancer and use the spell Dominate Person on him. Now aren't you glad that you're a wizard and not a cleric? Just do one or two this way, and keep them close, due to the spells range. Extend Spell helps with this. You can now use their controlled undead from both rebuking attempts and Animate Dead. Make sure you recast your Dominate Person every so many days. Between the followers from the leadership feat, your cohort's controlled undead, your dominated cleric's undead and the undead you can have controlled from your own Animate Dead spell, you'll have a crapload of sketons and zombies running around. If you want a lich/vampire, just cast Control Undead and tell them to stand still while the Cleric rebukes until he can control the creature (This requires a powerful cleric or a weak vampire, but it's possible.) Wraiths and other spawning undead are perfect to do with this. It's a bit complicated, and it has it's weaknesses, but there you have it, huge army of the undead, right at your disposal.
Jonny Reload 12-21-04, 11:01 PM	Ehhh, I was more looking to have the horde of undead under MY control, not the control of who'm I'm controlling. That leaves a huge gap to a hero who studies you and finds out you have weak links in your chain of command that if taken out, your army crumbles. Is there anyway to make skeletons... Mages? (Have skeletons that can Animate Dead as well?)
Bane 12-21-04, 11:24 PM	Take levels of Pale Master, from Libris Mortis. Take the feat Fell Animate, and whichever feats you want from the corpsecrafter group. I like nimble bones myself. Now throw Animating fireballs around in some thorp no one cares about, and use control undead. You now have your army. Liches are too powerful and too crafty to serve you. You'll end up dead or worse. Mummies aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, so you should be able to thwart any plans they have to seize power from you.
Melpomene 12-21-04, 11:35 PM	Is there anyway to make skeletons... Mages? (Have skeletons that can Animate Dead as well?) Yes. You apply the Bone template from BoVD to a wizard. However, you couldn't make them using conventional magic. As for controlling undead, I'm going to pimp my old concept of buying/trading/blackmailing undead HD from other wizards.
taltamir 12-21-04, 11:43 PM	Dont forget a lich IS a great necromancer, in fact you should be aspiring as a necromancer to become one some day. I would go with a custom setting of convincing your DM to allow it. Basically insetad of the checks and balances of having a limit on how many undead you control based on level/whatever, there will be the checks and balances of "if you raise too many people will take notice and you will have an army of paladins to take care of". This way you can have great necromancers holding out domains in which they have thosands of undead. And you can have bastions of "good" rallying to fight them. This can make for an AWESOME setting IMAO.
Doug McCrae 12-21-04, 11:47 PM	Command Undead. There's no limit on the HD of unintelligent undead you can control with it, except the 1 day/level duration. Maybe even Chain Spell it if you want to go completely nuts.
Melpomene 12-21-04, 11:53 PM	I'v never been partial to the litch template. I would only recomend it to a spellcaster who was about to die of old age, and probably not even then.
taltamir 12-21-04, 11:54 PM	He obviously wants to control them PERMANENTLY. This inability is exactly why I never bothered playing a necromancer... whats the point if you dont actually raise the dead to make your own undead army... Its build on dungeon delving mechanics instead of roleplay mechanics. Although... if you want permanent ones.. maybe require some special circumstances.. like semi expansive material components, OR a ritual that requires you to be the one who kills the person... (make for excellent roleplay there, evading the law and those who are curious about where people disappear to)
ronyon 12-22-04, 12:52 AM	Wizards get animate dead at 4th level, until then buy scrolls, wands, even oils. Control undead is temporary, but it rocks. All of my NecroClerics scheme to get it! There is a durid spell that lets the druid rebuke .Look at it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) Research it for your wizzie. Use the summon undead spells(they are arcane as well as divine, right?) Summon a spawning undead and give it a victem. The summoned creature leaves a new spawn behind(control undead it!) Use craft contingent spell on your important high level undead, and set up a web of reoccuring control undead. Awaken your undead. Befriend them and encourage them to become Warlocks. SpellStitch your skeletons with animate dead( not sure if too high a spell level) Get a stitched flesh maggot as your familier( both things increase your Hd of control) Make a Simulacrums of any strong necromancer, have them animate dead up to their limit, and turn them over to you( order them to follow your voice commands) Then polymorp any object them into something handy and keep them on your person(simulacrums are notoriously fragil) This http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4594808&postcount=46 entry lists some newer spells for creation/control Later...
taltamir 12-22-04, 12:59 AM	if the lich template sucks, it needs fixing. Lichdom should be what necromancers strive for, not a MOB. I would also require that part of the procedure to become a necromancer would involve some horrible acts... like sacrificing children or something. PS. With awaken undead you CAN have your own army of undead... I am your creator, I am your master, you shall obey me or be destroyed by my countless thralls... Repeat. Make a whole society of undead under your command, have them police eachother and make sure they are all obedient to you at all time. As long as you give enough perks to the more powerful ones... ;p
Bloodtide_the_Red 12-22-04, 02:26 AM	1.There are plenty of spells that let you create undead and they are Core too. As for Golems and other constructs, you can make and control any amount of them, you just can't make them with spells...takes a bit more then that. 1A.In order to have an army, you will need a general, captians, and other such 'officer' types. You don't personaly command every grunt in the army, you give the order to the commanders and they command the troops. And you do want it that way too. Consider. If only you control the army, they are just a mob and can only do what you tell them too. So you have to watch, react and control every part of the battle. And you can only take so many actions a round. So you take half your army and attack a town, telling the rest of them to wait on the other side of the hill. If the battle goes against you, you personaly have to leave the battle and go back and get your army. If you have a intelligent undead commander ewatching from nearby..he can go 'we must go help our master' and send reforcments. And, naturaly, if something happens to you, your army is toast. 2.Just about any spell that does not have a target of 'living creature' can effect undead. You can cast Mass Bull's Strgenth on a group of skeletons, for example. If your takling about permently...you can always give your undead magic items, a skeleton can wear a ring of protection, for example. Some books have undead bootsing spells, but nothing that last forever. There is one sneak trick. Polymorph any object. You can permently polymorph a skeleton into...well almost anything. Though it's not so clear if you'd still be able to control it, that would be a DM's call. A nice DM may let you add any of the undead templates to a skeleton with Polymoroh any Object and still keep control of them. 3.Nothing is foolproof. Good or bad guys, you always have to worry about politics and backstabbing. BT
ronyon 12-22-04, 09:10 PM	Bloodtide has some great ideas, and excellent points.Im not sure if it is a wizard spell, but Chain of Eyes is a great battlefeild command and control spell, especially if you have a flying minion.It allows you to touch a creature and then see thru its eyes. Every time that creature touches another, it can "pass" the effect on, if you wish.It lasts for hours per level...
KP91 12-22-04, 09:15 PM	1.Libris Mortis 2.Libris Mortis 3.No
Jonny Reload 12-23-04, 09:46 PM	1.Libris Mortis 2.Libris Mortis 3.No Ummm, I've read Libris Mortis, I didn't know they made a Cleric's book for the Undead... OH WAIT, they have a crappy prestiege class for wizards! Yay! :rolleyes: Dude, that book is so wizard unfriendly it's not even funny. The only good stuff a Wizard could gather from that book are the feats. The spells are worthless for a Necromancer who wants an undead army. I'm still wondering why there hasn't been a cannon spell to animate something on a smaller level for 1st-3rd level spells for Wizards.
beaver1024 12-24-04, 01:00 AM	Ummm, I've read Libris Mortis, I didn't know they made a Cleric's book for the Undead... OH WAIT, they have a crappy prestiege class for wizards! Yay! :rolleyes: Dude, that book is so wizard unfriendly it's not even funny. The only good stuff a Wizard could gather from that book are the feats. The spells are worthless for a Necromancer who wants an undead army. I'm still wondering why there hasn't been a cannon spell to animate something on a smaller level for 1st-3rd level spells for Wizards. Because in DnD 3.5 clerics are better necromancers than necromancers, better diviners than diviners, better summoners than conjurors, better fighters than fighters etc etc. This is how the desingers intended it to be because they wanted to encourage more people to play clerics so they intentionally unbalanced the class. If you don't like it, I suggest heavy house ruling.
taltamir 12-24-04, 04:00 PM	Because in DnD 3.5 clerics are better necromancers than necromancers, better diviners than diviners, better summoners than conjurors, better fighters than fighters etc etc. This is how the desingers intended it to be because they wanted to encourage more people to play clerics so they intentionally unbalanced the class. If you don't like it, I suggest heavy house ruling. Thats about it. Noone played a cleric before... even now when clerics are walking gods, not many plays them (then again, that might be a GOOD thing since its so much cheeze + not good roleplaying... Usually the cleric in most groups I am in is the 6 int half orc megadestroyer munchikin) I don't know why they even BOTHERED making a paladin class, since a cleric is better then them at every single aspect.
Jonny Reload 12-24-04, 09:57 PM	The funiest thing is I use to play a Cleric ALL the time (I mean a good indepth role played one, not just a uber cheese munchkin.) Wow, this is really sad. The day a Cleric makes a better Necromancer then a Necromancer.
taltamir 12-25-04, 07:48 PM	Houserules, houserules are the only way to go.