Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CTHUHLU_THE_GROOVY 05-30-07, 12:18 AM	Though we aren't at this point yet, a player has mentioned an interest in using wish to (mechanically) create a 1d12, 18-20 x 4 single handed melee weapon that he could use his present weapon focus/spec/mastery abilities on. Before you jump on this like rabid squirrels, keep in mind that this would be at level 18 minimum, and that he would have to cover enchantment costs himslef if he wanted it to be magical. This isn't a painfully high powered game, but balance isn't a huge issue. i think that this is a good idea, if only in concept (wishing for a high-powered weapon in base stats only). While I've mainly mentioned the weapon aspects, I ask the magic board people: is this a valid use of wish, and would you allow it? I don't believe in perverting wishes until they're useless, but drawbacks are probably in order. Right now, I'm leaning toward yes, but 1d10, 19-20 x3. Thanks in advance for any help! - If this seems like more of a equipment/feats thread, I'll move it.
smorgasbord_of_pie 05-30-07, 12:27 AM	Although I'm not at all an authority on the matter, I would say the weapon was already magical, so he couldn't get it enchanted. If it wasn't magic, then why couldn't it just be made by a normal blacksmith?
CTHUHLU_THE_GROOVY 05-30-07, 01:01 AM	In reply to your statement about getting it made by a normal blacksmith, the fluff is pretty much that the weapon would warp the laws of physics, and would be made to impossible normal standards without using magic. The game mechanics answer is that it is very much a broken weapon. He is wishing for it because it is extremely powerful, certainly the equal of a plus six weapon at the least. By the craft system, it would probably be impossible to make if one used the material or xp cost of wish as the guideline. Beyond that, he probably couldn't ask for one from a craftsperson of any variety, because he does not know how it would look or why it would have these statistics. Also, I would rule that it is nonmagical in that it is already magical, but he wouldn't be able to use the weapon at the late levels we're taking about without enchantement. He needs keen at least, and probably some damage boosts. Thanks for your help nonetheless, and I hope that I've carified my question somewhat.
jaelis 05-30-07, 01:10 AM	No way I'd allow a threat/crit range like that. Limiting it to high levels is no concern, good crit stuff gets more rewarding the higher level you are. Slap keen or improved crit on that baby and it's basically doing double damage on every swing. Put it this way: how much would you charge for a non-magical weapon that let you attack twice for every normal attack (another way to double damage)? I'd say a fair bit more than 25000 gp, making it beyond the limits of wish. Edit- I missed the last part of your post where you suggested 1d10 19-20/x3. That's still strong but much more reasonable. I might allow a wish to make the weapon but require an EWP feat to use it.
Redclock_the_Untimely 05-30-07, 02:11 AM	Looking at other weapon statistics in the PHB I would have to say that no, a wish could not create said weapon. However, given that there was a weapon quality in the Miniatures handbook that let you roll a die based on the base crit. multiplier and that a class feature of the Adamantine Chef out of the latest Knowledge Arcana changes a crit. multiplier for a specific weapon. Second, the powerful build racial ability lets a character wield a weapon one size larger than normal. Third, a character can use a feat to use a bastard sword one handed. Fourth and finally, keen edge and improved critical used to stack. I would say it is possible, but would cost at least four wishes based on the original chosen weapon. There are more ways to increase a weapon's abilities, but I think those were enough. Applying those ideas, if the base weapon was a greataxe, the first wish is to improve the multiplier from x3 to x4. The second wish is to increase the range from 20 to 19 - 20 and the third wish is to extend that range one more time. The fourth wish is for proficiency in wielding it one-handed. All that from one application of a class feature, two feats and an existing enchantment. A bit too expensive for me, but if he's willing to pay the cost and knows it is a unique weapon that will require the same number of wishes to remake should it be sundered, then its not entirely unreasonable. So, to some up, its possible, but expensive.
ArcTan 05-30-07, 04:39 AM	In reply to your statement about getting it made by a normal blacksmith, the fluff is pretty much that the weapon would warp the laws of physics, and would be made to impossible normal standards without using magic. That... is extremely dodgy. I would balk at that right there, in the same way I wouldn't like the idea of letting wish do anything else that warps the laws of physics but "isn't magic". The game mechanics answer is that it is very much a broken weapon. He is wishing for it because it is extremely powerful, certainly the equal of a plus six weapon at the least. By the craft system, it would probably be impossible to make if one used the material or xp cost of wish as the guideline. Then I would say no. The whole point of the limitations on wish is so that you can't use them to get things that are more powerful than the things you can get with the limitations on wish. I mean, it sounds like wishing for a piece of mundane equipment that somehow "warps the laws of physics" to have the same function as a vest of the archmagi without actually having to pay the XP cost to craft a vest of the archmagi. It's not only broken, it feels stupid.
Seeker95 05-30-07, 09:28 AM	I would say no. As he proposes, it gives too much benefit -- crit range, damage, crit effect, and size advantages. That you are willing to allow this to be a non-magical weapon that can become enchanted only ups the ante. Who wouldn't use a wish to get a regular-sized longsword that does 1d12 18-20 x4 damage *before* spending money to have it made magical? Throw the keen special ability on it (or take improved critical) and it is obscene. Your alternate stats (1d10, 19-20, x3) is a little better. I would, at the very least, recommend making it an exotic weapon, requiring the appropriate proficiency feat. But for my game, I would probably still say no.
starfire311 05-30-07, 10:29 AM	this seems awfully powerful for a wish... even your 1D10 19-20/x3 is just a keen waraxe.... that is non-magical. I would not have a big problem with it, essentially it would allow him to stack keen/IC with an unnamed bonus that already doubled the crit range. I would rule it thusly, He can have his 1D10 19-20/x3 but any crit enahncers are based off of the base 20/x3 so if he got keen it would be 1D10 18-20/x3
Elana 05-30-07, 12:48 PM	Why not just make it magical? It's a keen weapon with extra damage and enhanced crit damage. So I guess +1 magic Keen (+2) Extra damage (lets#s pretend it's like a flameburst so +2) Enhanced crit damage (less powerfull than vorpal better than wounding, so probably +3) So we have a +8 enchantment normal price 128,000 gold or to make 64,000 gold and 12,800 Xp To make it with a wish he would need to pay twice the XP cost or 25,600 XP. Guess he will need longer than level 18 to do it :)
tarkin 05-30-07, 12:59 PM	I agree with Elana. 1. He asked for a weapon with X properties. 2. A weapon with X properties can be made using magic. 3. Wishes can make magical items. 4. QED, he makes the wish, he gets the magic item, as per normal rules for wishes
Kursk 05-30-07, 01:29 PM	I agree with Elana. 1. He asked for a weapon with X properties. 2. A weapon with X properties can be made using magic. 3. Wishes can make magical items. 4. QED, he makes the wish, he gets the magic item, as per normal rules for wishes Exactly. Just figure the cost of said magic weapon and see if it is possible within the limits of a Wish spell.
Nakat 05-30-07, 03:09 PM	EWP: Bastard Sword + Keen/Imp.Crit. + Magical Effect to up Crit Threat. 1d10 17-20/x3 Reasonable for spending a wish on a +2 weapon, make the crit threat enhancement cost the equivilent of a +1, and it is a +3 weapon as a result. Done.
Elana 05-31-07, 11:56 AM	But before you agree to much, check my math, because it was totally wrong. A wish for that kind of magic weapon would cost 10240 XP not 25600.
kalyb 05-31-07, 01:19 PM	Personally, I don't allow my players to make wishes that use OOG stats in it. After all, the character is not going to say, "I wish for a weapon that does 1d12 damage, has a crit range of...etc." His wish Would be something like, "I wish for a weapon that hits harder than any known weapon, and allows me to critically wound my opponents more easily." This allows you to design the exact specs of the weapon, most likely with your player's input. You're the DM; you get to adjudicate wishes.
Bedevere 05-31-07, 04:44 PM	I'd let him have exactly what he wished for in this case. A non magical weapon with the 1d12 damage, 18-20 x4 crit range. He didnt ask for it to be masterworked, and since he specified that it warps the laws of physics, or whatever was said, then I doubt any blacksmith is going to be able to make a similar one. Therefore, it'll be non magical forever. At 18th level upwards, the sort of time you are likely to get wishes for this kind of use, this weapon will be seriously underpowered.
kalyb 05-31-07, 04:49 PM	I'd let him have exactly what he wished for in this case. A non magical weapon with the 1d12 damage, 18-20 x4 crit range. He didnt ask for it to be masterworked, and since he specified that it warps the laws of physics, or whatever was said, then I doubt any blacksmith is going to be able to make a similar one. Therefore, it'll be non magical forever. At 18th level upwards, the sort of time you are likely to get wishes for this kind of use, this weapon will be seriously underpowered. I like this idea too. :D
ishpu 05-31-07, 04:53 PM	as long as everyone is having fun its cool, i'd imagine that you'd need to make more weapons for other people as they'll want new shiny things too. You'll probably want to drop death from massive dmg if you're using it as 50 dmg probably wont be hard to get. and you'll most likely have to increase monsters but hey no biggie... the key is how much fun is everyone having?
Trix_Dracos 06-02-07, 11:15 PM	I'm thinking that even as a non-magical, non-masterwork weapon the potential for abuse is too far out there for me to allow it as asked. Think of the feats that could be added to this weapon. Add to that the spells that can be applied. Add to that the PrC abilities for some classes. And don't forget the spells that apply directly to a creature wielding a weapon that increase the effectiveness and stack with everything on the weapon itself. The most prominent magical enhancements that come to mind are Greater Magic Weapon and the divine spells that enhance the combat prowess of the cleric. Granted, the character in question is a fighter, but how hard will it be for this player to obtain items that duplicate the spells in question after convincing his GM to allow the weapon. If you want a true test for this weapon, set up a post on the CharOp boards detailing the character class and level with the requested weapon stats and just see how gross the potential gets and how quickly you rethink allowing this wish. When you detail the class and level, give current information and projected level of obtaining this item. If I was to consider this item, it would indeed be created as already magical in the fact that the effects on the weapon would be keen, an enchantment to duplicate the effects of the feats that allow you to wield over-size weapons one handed and increase the critical multiplier (both of which would likely be +2 abilities), and the base +1 enhancement bonus so that the other enchantments can be applied. A modified version of the Elven Thinblade from Complete Warrior come to mind most readily. Starts as d8, increase the size category by two steps for d12; crit range is already good at 18-20; crit multiplier though is only *2, I think that making this *4 would equate to a +4 bonus on the weapon equivalency charts. Add it all together, you get an oversized blade at +5 base modified further by the feat enhancements (so that you don't have to take the feats themselves) and you start with a +9 weapon that cannot be duplicated because it is customized for the character. cost for creation under the rules of Wish = 5,000 xp base cost for Wish plus the xp cost of the +9 equivalent weapon (6,480 doubled as per Wish for 12,960) for a total xp cost of 17,960. We also can't forget the monetary cost of creating the weapon, even through Wish. It doesn't state that you must pay it, but it doesn't state that you don't either. And yes, I'm likely being strict but I'm also setting it to a cost that the player will likely pay yet another player will think long and hard about. The short version, I'm minimizing the risk of serious abuse by the table in general. A truly evil GM would also consider such an item a prime target for theft, sunder or disarm. I know I would. On a positive note, I wouldn't mess with this Wish as long as the player put some careful thought into the wording. Trix_Dracos
TeMpOrAl 06-11-07, 01:54 PM	Just stay to Wish'es rules and the cost should be sufficient to cover the magical item, you could possibly add a ad hoc cost for the XP
zioth 06-11-07, 02:46 PM	1d12, 18-20 x 4 single handed melee weapon that he could use his present weapon focus/spec/mastery abilities on. How good is this weapon? 1d12 = 6.5 average. Each point of crit multiplies average damage by 4/20. 18-20 adds 3*4/20 = 3/5 Total: 6.5 + 3.9 = 10.4 With "Improved Critical:" 6.5 + 2*3.9 = 14.3 average damage A 1d8 19-20x2 weapon does 6.3 damage on average with improved crit. That same weapon with two +1d6 enhancements on it does 13.3 damage. So this is a little better than a +2 weapon. Your idea (1d10 19-20x3) with improved crit does 8.8 damage, which is less than a +1 weapon. The problem is that it can be enchanted. With his version, you're basically giving him a weapon that has a +2 enchantment for free, followed by the regular enchantments. With your version, that's +1 for free. Now this is a weapon that could not be created by an ordinary blacksmith. So I'd say it can't be enchanted by an ordinary mage. Level requirements for enchantment are 5 higher than normal, and enchantment costs are double. Furthermore, you have to find a mage with a special level of skill to do the work. If you want rules-based numbers (not necessary), I'd say require a mage with level equal to 5+3*(enchantment level), and at least a +20 modifier in Proffession(blacksmith). This way, you give your player what he wants, but he basically has to go on a special quest to enchant his weapon. The player might enjoy this. It adds a lot of history and character to this special weapon.