a patient wizard's options [Archive] - Wizards Community

a patient wizard's options [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
atanhel
01-05-06, 07:59 AM I've been thinking about a abjurer, how protects against everything that is trow against him.
He readies and when an oponent casts a spell, he finds a protection against it.
For instance, were he targeted by a fireball, he'd cast resist elements, and against a magic missile he'd cast sheild.

There have been a few things however I'm not certain about they would work.
If an opponent would cast a targeted spell, like finger of dead and he would cast invisibility, would the spell fail, for the caster would have no target he could see, of would tehre be a 50% miss, or would teh spell work, because the spell already have a target?

I had more spelltypes, but they've slipped my mind at the moment.
I'm sure they come up, later.
But what do you think about this one?
Chrono Nexus
01-05-06, 08:41 AM If he can't see the defender, visually or otherwise, he can't target him. If he knows the space a creature occupies but can't see him, he gets a 50% miss chance on touch spells. Area or spread spells work normally. Cover can also provide a bonus against bursts, and full cover dissallows touch spells on the defender. If you cast fog cloud in response to the opponent casting a death spell, the opponent still had to initially target you to cast it. Even though your action resolves first, he still managed to target you.
Sharax
01-05-06, 08:41 AM I'd say the finger of death would still effect you since you have allready been targeted (he touches you while you cast invisibility for example), even if you act first. Since there is no mention of a situation like this in RAW, it's up to the DM.
Asciiman
01-05-06, 12:28 PM There are rules for this situation, and here they are.

Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

So what Chrono Nexus said is correct.

When you ready an action it comes before the action that triggered it. So in the finger of death example, the invisibility comes before the targeting.
True Cavalier
01-05-06, 02:30 PM But since he will start casting invisibility after he sees that the enemy starts casting finger of death, one could assume that he finishes after the enemy is finished.

I miss 2nd edition casting times :P

I'd just make both roll initiative checks to see who is faster. (because otherwise counterspells are much less useful, if you can make invisibility and counter many, many perils)
Archtyrant Terevoth
01-05-06, 02:46 PM Actually you can do weird stuff like this in wizards duels, however note that the other guy can choose a new target for his spell. If you are the only valid target, then his spell would fizzle out. It's the same as if a fighter ducked behind complete cover as a readied action. You can "bait" a wizard into wasting spells, of course you have to go first and you have to hope that he's casting something that your particular movement or spell can help you escape.

Also, you have to decide what spell you're readying before you know what spell the opponet will cast, so readying invisibility may not be all that helpful if he casts a fireball for instance.
atanhel
01-05-06, 03:16 PM I hope that what Archtyrant Terevoth sais is not true, because in that case, you have to decide, before a your oppenent does anything, that you are going to... let's say counter it.
How will you know weather you can counter it?

let's say you stand alone against an other wizard, and you ready and decide to counterspell ( ready to counterspell is, I hope an action you can ready).
then the other caster is and casts melf's acid arrow, but you did not prepare melf's acid arrow, is your standart action wasted?
Is it not more like you take a standard action, in which you can cast most any spell you know in order to stop him?

couldn't you cast a magic missile as a readied action to force a enemy to make a concetrationcheck, if the spell he is casting is not one you can cast?

On an other note: thanks for the answeres :)
RogerWilco
01-05-06, 04:54 PM I think you have to ready a specific spell and condition. But I think the ready action is already powerful enough. Remember: what you can do the bad guys can also do!
smrtgmp
01-05-06, 06:40 PM I'd say the finger of death would still effect you since you have allready been targeted (he touches you while you cast invisibility for example), even if you act first. Since there is no mention of a situation like this in RAW, it's up to the DM.Actually, there is mention of this, in the "aiming a spell" section of the magic chapter in the PHB. You choose the target when the spell goes off, not when you start casting. For spells with a standard action casting time, its basically the same thing, but if you dont have a viable target when the spell goes off, you're out of luck. So if someone readied an action to cast invisibility when you start casting, and you were casting a targeted spell, you cannot target said individual unless you can somehow see invisible creatures.

Regarding readied actions: You have to declare two things. 1st, you have to declare a triggering factor, such as "when the enemy wizard starts casting..." 2nd, you have to declare what you are going to do in response to the triggering condition. Generally, this leaves you with only one option. However, if you ready an action to counterspell, then you have a bit of leeway in what you do in response to the triggering action. You can use the same spell your enemy is casting (assuming you make the spellcraft check and have the proper spell prepared) or you can use dispel magic and risk the CL check.

If you want to be a good counterspeller, I reccomend taking the various feats which actually make it worth while. That way you can counterspell in a reactive manner, rather than constatly readying your actions. There are also some spells and magic items out there that facilitate easier counterspelling.
mvincent
01-05-06, 08:41 PM you have to decide what spell you're readying before you know what spell the opponet will cast,That is true, but given how counterspells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/magicOverview.htm#counterspells) work, I can see the confusion:
How Counterspells Work
To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.)

If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.

To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
atanhel 01-05-06, 07:59 AM	I've been thinking about a abjurer, how protects against everything that is trow against him. He readies and when an oponent casts a spell, he finds a protection against it. For instance, were he targeted by a fireball, he'd cast resist elements, and against a magic missile he'd cast sheild. There have been a few things however I'm not certain about they would work. If an opponent would cast a targeted spell, like finger of dead and he would cast invisibility, would the spell fail, for the caster would have no target he could see, of would tehre be a 50% miss, or would teh spell work, because the spell already have a target? I had more spelltypes, but they've slipped my mind at the moment. I'm sure they come up, later. But what do you think about this one?
Chrono Nexus 01-05-06, 08:41 AM	If he can't see the defender, visually or otherwise, he can't target him. If he knows the space a creature occupies but can't see him, he gets a 50% miss chance on touch spells. Area or spread spells work normally. Cover can also provide a bonus against bursts, and full cover dissallows touch spells on the defender. If you cast fog cloud in response to the opponent casting a death spell, the opponent still had to initially target you to cast it. Even though your action resolves first, he still managed to target you.
Sharax 01-05-06, 08:41 AM	I'd say the finger of death would still effect you since you have allready been targeted (he touches you while you cast invisibility for example), even if you act first. Since there is no mention of a situation like this in RAW, it's up to the DM.
Asciiman 01-05-06, 12:28 PM	There are rules for this situation, and here they are. Readying an Action You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action. So what Chrono Nexus said is correct. When you ready an action it comes before the action that triggered it. So in the finger of death example, the invisibility comes before the targeting.
True Cavalier 01-05-06, 02:30 PM	But since he will start casting invisibility after he sees that the enemy starts casting finger of death, one could assume that he finishes after the enemy is finished. I miss 2nd edition casting times :P I'd just make both roll initiative checks to see who is faster. (because otherwise counterspells are much less useful, if you can make invisibility and counter many, many perils)
Archtyrant Terevoth 01-05-06, 02:46 PM	Actually you can do weird stuff like this in wizards duels, however note that the other guy can choose a new target for his spell. If you are the only valid target, then his spell would fizzle out. It's the same as if a fighter ducked behind complete cover as a readied action. You can "bait" a wizard into wasting spells, of course you have to go first and you have to hope that he's casting something that your particular movement or spell can help you escape. Also, you have to decide what spell you're readying before you know what spell the opponet will cast, so readying invisibility may not be all that helpful if he casts a fireball for instance.
atanhel 01-05-06, 03:16 PM	I hope that what Archtyrant Terevoth sais is not true, because in that case, you have to decide, before a your oppenent does anything, that you are going to... let's say counter it. How will you know weather you can counter it? let's say you stand alone against an other wizard, and you ready and decide to counterspell ( ready to counterspell is, I hope an action you can ready). then the other caster is and casts melf's acid arrow, but you did not prepare melf's acid arrow, is your standart action wasted? Is it not more like you take a standard action, in which you can cast most any spell you know in order to stop him? couldn't you cast a magic missile as a readied action to force a enemy to make a concetrationcheck, if the spell he is casting is not one you can cast? On an other note: thanks for the answeres :)
RogerWilco 01-05-06, 04:54 PM	I think you have to ready a specific spell and condition. But I think the ready action is already powerful enough. Remember: what you can do the bad guys can also do!
smrtgmp 01-05-06, 06:40 PM	I'd say the finger of death would still effect you since you have allready been targeted (he touches you while you cast invisibility for example), even if you act first. Since there is no mention of a situation like this in RAW, it's up to the DM.Actually, there is mention of this, in the "aiming a spell" section of the magic chapter in the PHB. You choose the target when the spell goes off, not when you start casting. For spells with a standard action casting time, its basically the same thing, but if you dont have a viable target when the spell goes off, you're out of luck. So if someone readied an action to cast invisibility when you start casting, and you were casting a targeted spell, you cannot target said individual unless you can somehow see invisible creatures. Regarding readied actions: You have to declare two things. 1st, you have to declare a triggering factor, such as "when the enemy wizard starts casting..." 2nd, you have to declare what you are going to do in response to the triggering condition. Generally, this leaves you with only one option. However, if you ready an action to counterspell, then you have a bit of leeway in what you do in response to the triggering action. You can use the same spell your enemy is casting (assuming you make the spellcraft check and have the proper spell prepared) or you can use dispel magic and risk the CL check. If you want to be a good counterspeller, I reccomend taking the various feats which actually make it worth while. That way you can counterspell in a reactive manner, rather than constatly readying your actions. There are also some spells and magic items out there that facilitate easier counterspelling.
mvincent 01-05-06, 08:41 PM	you have to decide what spell you're readying before you know what spell the opponet will cast,That is true, but given how counterspells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/magicOverview.htm#counterspells) work, I can see the confusion: How Counterspells Work To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.) If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things. To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.