Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheGreenGriffon 06-14-06, 10:49 PM	This might only really apply to players in campaigns playing humans (or other short lived races) in which the course of the game your character begins feeling the effects of age or even gets to an age where death from old age may apply. I thought of this cheap solution for players in games in which the DM outlaws the research of any type of procedure to extend your life or grant immortality. Its also a great way to erase those physical penalties for old age. Its possible someone has already thought of this but here goes: You will require access to a druid. Either a PC Druid or an NPC willing to cast spells for a fee. The old character before he dies of old age must die. Either be getting a mercy killing from a fellow PC or by killing himself. The PC is reincarnated into a new form and gets a new body of the same or new race but this new body is a new young adult body of the race rolled on the table and all age penatlies would be wiped away although you would have to use the new forms physical abilty adjusmtnets and negate your previous races adjustments. This method is mostly useful on those who dont rely on physical ability scores like powerful spellcasters. This process could be used over and over again to cheat death. Sure you still loose a level but it can be reagined quickly enough in most campaigns.
Wonton2006 06-14-06, 11:10 PM	Yup. What kind of campaign runs where your character can die of old age???
TheGreenGriffon 06-14-06, 11:53 PM	Ive played in a few campaigns where my human characters have started getting into Middle age and older. some DM's keep track of time and dont have adventures back to back, especially in campaigns with lots of roleplaying and character development. Like a high level rich PC may start his own kingdom or supervise the construction of his castle hes buying or a character might get married in game and start a family before returning to adventure. this doesnt effect dwarvesa nd elves at all really but humans definately.
lukelightning 06-15-06, 10:11 AM	Play a binder and become a knight of the sacred seal; you become an outsider by level 11.
Seeker95 06-15-06, 11:19 AM	What is the fascination with having immortal characters in a game where death is no more an obstacle than a locked door? For that matter, in a game that lasts a few days to a few years at most (in real time) and *might* span as much as a few decades?
tarkin 06-15-06, 11:40 AM	I agree. Your character is MUCH more likely to have his soul eaten up by a necromantic effect than to die of old age, or have himself and all his friends killed, so no one is left to raise you. Or to have an Evil God make you his butt-whipe and constantly infect you with new diseases that extend your torment forever. I mean really, what kind of ***** adventurer are you that dies of OLD AGE? You fight kobolds with no levels? Worst case sceanrio you die and come back as an Archon.
Damned slayer 06-15-06, 05:47 PM	If I remember well you do not chose in wich form you will reincarnate and if you reincarnate in an animal form you kill urself again and lose another lvl?? and what happens when the druid die of old age??
TheGreenGriffon 06-15-06, 07:47 PM	Well I didnt say any of my characters have ever died of old age and Ive never said they havent died in the course of a battle. But dying unnatural deaths thats different and yes you can just be brought back. But The groups I use to play in we did lots of roleplaying which meant starting our own towns and building castles, researching spells, making new magic items (which in 2ed was hard to do and could take years.) Back then there was a lot of aging effects like from haste as well. Doesnt apply much now and this idea is just that, an idea for the small percentage of people who may start acquiring age penalties they dont want. As for reincarnantion, the new 3.5 PHB version of the spell no longer gives you a chance to be reincarnated as an animal, they are all a type of humanoid and since reincarnate doesnt effect mental attributes any spellcasters reincarnated should be ok and anyone else may take some hits but this is designed mostly for spellcasters which I play more than other classes. Also, there is always a druid somewhere.
utilitarian 06-15-06, 08:15 PM	Also, there is always a druid somewhere. Except in a world where Shujenja evolved instead of druids. You blew it all up! You bastards!
Iver Gearsham 06-15-06, 10:15 PM	Or you could just live out your eternity on the Astral plane. Druids don't like violations of the natural order if it is nearing your time then embrace it and all that, a druid might say but with more wisdom enhanced wording.
Nialo 06-15-06, 10:21 PM	What is the fascination with having immortal characters in a game where death is no more an obstacle than a locked door? For that matter, in a game that lasts a few days to a few years at most (in real time) and *might* span as much as a few decades? On that same note, why is WotC so intent on preventing players from achieving immortality if it has so little impact on the game itself? It's always bugged me.
orionm42 06-15-06, 10:49 PM	The PC is reincarnated into a new form and gets a new body of the same or new race but this new body is a new young adult body of the race rolled on the table and all age penatlies would be wiped away... I believe this is incorrect. That is not how I read the spell... Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First, eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to the (sic) its remaining ability scores. So, if you were originally a human with a strength of 6 after aging and your new form was an elf, you would drop your human racial adjustment to your strength score (which is zero), and then add zero (the elf's STR adjustment) to the remaining ability score of 6. The net result is your strength score is still 6. Better hope you don't come back as a kobold! :)
TheGreenGriffon 06-15-06, 11:09 PM	So, if you were originally a human with a strength of 6 after aging and your new form was an elf, you would drop your human racial adjustment to your strength score (which is zero), and then add zero (the elf's STR adjustment) to the remaining ability score of 6. The net result is your strength score is still 6. Its my opinion that you would use your characters original physical scores minus the racial adjustments because you come back with a new young adult body and reincarnation is suppose to be a fresh start, a new body, i doubt you would be a weak and feeble version of your new race. It doesnt really say either way but thats how I would use it. I also saw the spell in the 2nd paragraph that " since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired." One could argue that old age is a physical affliction since it applies penalties to your physical ability scores. Druids don't like violations of the natural order if it is nearing your time then embrace it and all that, a druid might say but with more wisdom enhanced wording. Im afraid this argument has no ground to stand on. reincarnation is a part of a druids philosphy of the natural order and they wouldnt have access to the spell if they werent suppose to use it. As long as the creature didnt die of old age then hes good to go.
Black_Puffin 06-16-06, 10:07 AM	Personally, I opt for undeath, but that's not for everyone. When reincarnated, you remove all racial traits and gain the new ones. If memory serves, when brought back to life in another age category, you keep the mental modifiers but losse the physical ones. I don't believe if you re-enter the age category you re-acrue the mental modifiers.
Damned slayer 06-16-06, 10:11 AM	By the way talking of undead If you were at the eldest stage of age and you transform into a lich do you get back the +6 str and +6 Dex sicnce you lose all const it doesnt matter for this one lol
Black_Puffin 06-16-06, 10:14 AM	Lich is a template. You don't really change race or age cat. I believe you lose the ability to age though. The ability modifiers would negate the age penalties though...
orionm42 06-16-06, 10:29 AM	Its my opinion that you would use your characters original physical scores minus the racial adjustments because you come back with a new young adult body and reincarnation is suppose to be a fresh start, a new body, i doubt you would be a weak and feeble version of your new race. It doesnt really say either way but thats how I would use it. Black_Puffin touched on it, but this will be the result of your interpretation... DM: Ok party members, there is a dungeon to the north. The king is going to pay you 10,000GP to clear the area of all baddies. Plus, it is rumored there is a ton of loot down there. Are you ready to go? Druid: Nah! I'm just going to sit here for a while. DM: What? Why? Druid: Well, when I become venerable, my mental ability scores will all increase by three, while my physical abilities scores will decrease by six. However, once I reach venerable age, I'll have someone kill and then reincarnate me. DM: Why? Druid: When I reincarnate, the spell's description is silent on mental ability scores. As such, by RAW, this would indicate I keep all of my existing mental ability scores, but all of the negatives to physical scores associated with aging are wiped away. All I have to do is wash, rinse, repeat; wash, rinse, repeat,; etc. and BAM. Before you know it, I have infinite mental ability scores in a young man's body. Can you say pun-pun (well...not quite, but you get the idea)!! DM: :headexplo:
Despana 06-16-06, 11:16 AM	Black_Puffin touched on it, but this will be the result of your interpretation... DM: Ok party members, there is a dungeon to the north. The king is going to pay you 10,000GP to clear the area of all baddies. Plus, it is rumored there is a ton of loot down there. Are you ready to go? Druid: Nah! I'm just going to sit here for a while. DM: What? Why? Druid: Well, when I become venerable, my mental ability scores will all increase by three, while my physical abilities scores will decrease by six. However, once I reach venerable age, I'll have someone kill and then reincarnate me. DM: Why? Druid: When I reincarnate, spell's description is silent on mental ability scores. As such, by RAW, this would indicate I keep all of my existing mental ability scores, but all of the negatives to physical scores associated with aging are wiped away. All I have to do is wash, rinse, repeat; wash, rinse, repeat,; etc. and BAM. Before you know it, I have infinite mental ability scores in a young man's body. Can you say pun-pun (well...not quite, but you get the idea)!! DM: :headexplo: More like: DM: Ok, well, we should be that far along the time stream where you are done doing that in about a year, RL time. So I guess we'll hear from you then? On the other hand if you want to actually play the game there's a group here that could use a druid...
orionm42 06-16-06, 11:22 AM	More like: DM: Ok, well, we should be that far along the time stream where you are done doing that in about a year, RL time. So I guess we'll hear from you then? On the other hand if you want to actually play the game there's a group here that could use a druid... More like.. Other players: Wait, we want to do this too. We'll all just sit here. Let's fast forward about 10,000 years in game time.
TheSkinnySkeleton 06-16-06, 04:00 PM	Heheh, I guess this WOULD allow for infinite mental scores, at least in a theoretical perspective. However, it'd be an NPC option, not really for PCs (the multiple reincarnations at least). I could see it as an interesting plot hook though--two druid/archmage brothers who have ahieved immortality together, forever waiting out their lifespans, then killing and reincarnating each other. The PCs must now face them...the mad druidic archmagi with infinite wisdom and intelligence. "Huh? What do you mean Will save DC INFINITE or DIE?!!!" :devil: However, I could see uses for this method in-game. I (and many other DMs I know) have always found it kind of stupid how PCs start at a minimal age and usually have the ability to achieve epic levels in the span of a few years. Super high levels should be reserved for older folk. Makes more sense. Also, most DMs are willing to let you start off as an older character if you are willing to RP it. Makes the game less cliched. And, there's something to be said about playing a level 1 wizard of venerable age.... And of course, there're supernatural aging effects. Haste no longer ages you, but there's always the Ghost Dragon (Monsters of Faerun). Anyone caught by its breath weapon--a cone shaped cloud of grey mist--is aged by d% years. That's enough to age a teenager to venerable status in one shot, if it doesn't kill him! Of course, I wouldn't allow the INT and WIS bonuses in a case like this....
Damned slayer 06-16-06, 06:44 PM	What would be the point in giving a reincarnated character new modifiers If you would age each time with modifiers why wouldnt elfs age mentally at the same rate then humans???? I dont see why you would get more than +3Int from aging since you grew in maturity and after 10k years you wont learn new things that would justify a +1int And on wich race would you base the new mental age category on the new form or on the old one???? And if you transform into an undead why wouldnt you grow smarter???? In my opinion you could only use reincarnate to nullify penalyties not to gain new bonus PS you only get bonus if you age naturally it is written
TheSkinnySkeleton 06-16-06, 07:06 PM	If you would age each time with modifiers why wouldnt elfs age mentally at the same rate then humans???? Well, that's the thing. The longer-lived races DON'T mature as fast as humans do. Page 109, PHB. It takes elves almost 100 years to mature from middle age to old age, yet it takes humans a little less than 20 years to mature the same amount. Yet, both races only gain the bonuses to INT and WIS when they reach the appropiate age bracket. This is a glaring problem with the rules that doesn't make any logical sense. If you ask me, I think that as the characters age, they should take penalties to their physical attributes, but gain NO bonuses to their mental attributes. They should also take penalties to Listen and Spot (but not to Wisdom). Really, all people get weaker when they age, but not all people get smarter. If you want to play your PC as being wizer as he matures, then level up your abilities in Wisdom instead of optimizing for Strength. Or take more Knowledge skill ranks. In my opinion, the big problem WotC made is by incorporating rules mechanics for a game element which should be ROLEPLAYED. Everybody matures differently. It should be left up to the player how his/her character improves.
Reldo 06-16-06, 08:09 PM	heres a way to gain Immortality without a druid (If you are an arcane caster or Cleric). All you have to know is Clone and Gental Repose, or Wish/Miracle if you have too. Spend some cash for the equiptment and materials (which you should have if you can cast 8th level spells) and clone yourself. Then use Gental Repose to keep the clone from rotting (maybe you could also use permanancy or make a Ring of Repose if your DM will let you). Then, because the clone won't age with you, you can just kill your old body and your soul will enter the new one. rinse and repeat.
Black_Puffin 06-17-06, 09:53 AM	I like the clone idea. I realize that lich only gains +2 increases in mental ability scores and loses CON. I always wondered about clone and lichs. If a lich uses clone before it becomes a lich (doesn't really matter but for infiltration purposes...) and "dies", does it come back as its younger considerably less decomposed self (but still a lich because the template would carry) or return as normal. I thought it would be a great story hook: The PCs killed the lich but it comes back as it's high society former self with the powers of undeath and still takes over the kingdom. Magic Jar and possession are also options for controlling clone bodies. The epic level handbook also includes a feat that effectivly doubles your lifespan. I was also including the Exalted Deeds deathless as an option in undeath. I've been tinkering with a positive energy powered lich myself, I know it's a variant in Libris Mortis but it just seems too evil for my taste. Savage Species rituals offer another path to becoming an outsider, even subtypes that would allow levels in Fiend of Possession. Never worry about a body again. If you haven't figured it out I tinker a lot with critters. There are even some more specialized options for undeath in other non-WoTC supplements.
Black_Puffin 06-17-06, 09:56 AM	The mental ability increases and penalties DO NOT RE-ACRUE!!!! They are one shot deals! If you enter the age cat more than once it doesn't stack as far as I know.
Xeonas 06-17-06, 03:09 PM	Ok, This thread got me wondering: is there someway to gain eternal life without eternal youth? The reason for this is that I'm playing a monk in an evil campian. The Idea with our group is that each one of us, in our epic levels, will have achived immortality and together take over the world. We'll then rule it for all eternity- or so we think. Right after we finsh that campain, we'll start a completly new one 10,000 years later with different good characters that will try to stop all the tyrany in the world our prevous characters created. :) Regardless, each one of us has agreed to get their longevity in a competely different way, for flavor purposes. Our cleric becoming a lich, our sorcerer going to become a full dragon somehow ect. The point is that I'm going to be getting Timeless Body, so I think it would be a good idea to keep aging. I imagen that I'll keep gaining the aging bonuses that way, and doesn't run into the problem Black_Puffin mentoned. You guys know any way to do this? You think I could Wish for this flawed immortality?
coppro 06-17-06, 03:23 PM	As a DM, I'd say that none of this works. Reason? Age is a function of both spirit and body. No spell can bring back someone who has died of old age. Why should a spell heal your spirit in such a way if it can't pass a certain point. Not even a diety can change this fact. Why should a Reincarnate get it?
zapogee 06-17-06, 04:01 PM	Or you could just live out your eternity on the Astral plane. I think they removed the timeless quality of the Astral, so time passes normally now. Worried about old age? become a lich. Dont have to be evil.
Black_Puffin 06-19-06, 06:13 PM	Okay, I looked it up. Chap 6 of PHB doesn't say anything about the bonuses acrueing. But the structure of the system leads me to believe that the bonuses are based upon being active and it would make sense that the mental aspect would remain if the body were to revert to a younger version. The monk class features mention gaining only the mental aspects. And the Epic handbook's Phane can age a character without the mental aspects. Becoming a dragon should work. Dragons in the game are eternal but can die in combat and other unnatural means. The ring of gentle repose idea got me thinking. Lich's decomp, so the ring would perserve them. Book o' Vile Darkness has a great 8th level spell you might want to look into. Steal Life makes you younger by a week per ability point drained when cast under a full moon. Restrain a captive, have a cleric ready to cast restoration, and drain away the poor fools essence!
orionm42 06-20-06, 10:09 AM	Okay, I looked it up. Chap 6 of PHB doesn't say anything about the bonuses acrueing. But the structure of the system leads me to believe that the bonuses are based upon being active and it would make sense that the mental aspect would remain if the body were to revert to a younger version. I agree. The bonus to mental stats based on age assumes you accumulate knowledge with experience. There is no reason to believe you would lose this knowledge if you were reincarnated. My example above was meant to be somewhat facetious. I probably would not allow it for the reason above. In other words, you can't simply sit in a chair and accumulate knowledge by turning a year older. You would actually need to adventure to gain that knowledge. Not quite RAW, but a reasonable interpretation in my book. In any event, the concern arises when you allow a character to begin adventuring at an old age. I personally have created older spellcasters and have taken the penalties to physical stats if I rolled particularly well so that I could increase my intelligence to 19. This allows you to get that +5 modifier from routine stat boosts earlier. If you use the "new body, no age penalties" interpretation of reincarnation, this would allow the character to gain an advantage. However, using my interpretation of the spell (which I believe is the correct reading of the spell), the player cannot lose those penalties to physical stats by reincarnating.
Haruspex 06-20-06, 10:27 AM	I'm not entirely sure, but I think the Draconomicon listed how dragons die natural deaths. Don't have the book at hand though, so I might be wrong.
MarkB 06-20-06, 10:49 AM	I like the clone idea. I realize that lich only gains +2 increases in mental ability scores and loses CON. I always wondered about clone and lichs. If a lich uses clone before it becomes a lich (doesn't really matter but for infiltration purposes...) and "dies", does it come back as its younger considerably less decomposed self (but still a lich because the template would carry) or return as normal. I thought it would be a great story hook: The PCs killed the lich but it comes back as it's high society former self with the powers of undeath and still takes over the kingdom. Personally, I'd rule that in order to successfully die and become a lich, the character would have to destroy the Clone, otherwise he comes back to life in the new body instead of becoming a lich.
Black_Puffin 06-20-06, 05:16 PM	Successfully die and become a lich? Who said anything about dieing? When you become a lich you transfer your soul to the phylactery. Your spirit continues to animate the body. Yes, you are undead, but you don't really die. It doesn't say anything about dieing. If you were talking necropolitan (libris mortis), yeah, your dead...and if there is an interuption...your dead dead...
Horseshoe_Hermit 06-20-06, 05:37 PM	On that same note, why is WotC so intent on preventing players from achieving immortality if it has so little impact on the game itself? It's always bugged me. Immortality is just impossible to represent. It's an absolutely unattained state, and any attempt at imagining the kinds of effects it would have on someone, who now no longer has a "time limit," would either just be fiction or lies. Sure, I'd love immortality - no time limit! But actually gaining that immortality, what would that do to my motivations? I don't know... So, you have to be mortal, although it may never actually happen. Like how you still have to be in danger in the game, though you'll never be destroyed unless you're a total idiot. The GM tries to make you feel like you can screw up, but he wants you to succeed. So it is with immortality.
Black_Puffin 06-20-06, 05:51 PM	Even the gods in Dieties and Demigods could be killed; true they'd live for eternity if they avoided combat and traps and such. The 3.5 einhedjar from Dieties has divine rank 0 that gives it immortality exept it can be killed. Lichs die instantly when their phlactery is destroyed. Libris Mortis had an interesting picture of a lich just plain bored out of his skull because he had nothing left to study after a millenia. I agree, what would you do with immortality, both good and evil (taking into account that you might still die by combat or traps). Here's what I'd do: Both: Learn every spell ever. Evil: plot my evil plans, prepare, and then seek revenge on my now dead-by-natural-causes opponents (YAARRRGGHH!) Good: Fight evil, feast at Valhalla cantina and grill, fight more evil...
MarkB 06-20-06, 07:02 PM	Successfully die and become a lich? Who said anything about dieing? When you become a lich you transfer your soul to the phylactery. Your spirit continues to animate the body. Yes, you are undead, but you don't really die. It doesn't say anything about dieing. Well, that's just semantics - I'd say that once your soul leaves your body, you're dead. And if there's already a vessel such as a Clone ready to take up that soul, you'll have trouble wrestling it into a phylactery.
coppro 06-20-06, 07:40 PM	Wait! I've got it! Ysgard! Just stay there! :shifty: That was almost too easy. Something must be wrong with it.
Quaoar 06-20-06, 08:41 PM	Immortality is just impossible to represent. It's an absolutely unattained state, and any attempt at imagining the kinds of effects it would have on someone, who now no longer has a "time limit," would either just be fiction or lies. True, it is impossible to represent. But it already has to be faked in game because of things like liches, and NPCs like Elminster. So why not let the players have fun with it too?
Seeker95 06-20-06, 08:49 PM	So why not let the players have fun with it too?They can. They just have to make up house rules to do it.
Snazzomancer 06-29-06, 08:04 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm... :P 'Nuff said
Thane26425 06-29-06, 10:00 PM	If you are a magic user type, there is always lichdom. Good characters can go that route too, though it is rare and I could imagine that many former allies might not look to favorably on that. You could take the Green Star Adept Prestique class. At 10th level aging stops and it has most construct traits. Can still be killed though, just not quite as easily as regular folks. Some of the supplemental books had necromancy spells that allowed a caster to exchange bodies with other people, temporarily or permanantly. Spells in other game systems could steal the youth from a person and make the caster younger. Of course, there also used to be various potions that could take off the years too, but those don't seem to have made it into 3.5.
Osedox 06-29-06, 10:38 PM	I think if my players decided to try that Reincarnate trick I would start using the varient rule from Heroes of Horror, where there is a chance that it goes arwy every time a Ressurection spell is used.
Thane26425 06-30-06, 02:24 AM	Boredom could be a real problem. After all, fighting monster and the undead probably would get monotonous after a few centuries. Running a kingdom would probably be even worse, having to put up with a never ending stream of grasping mortals causing you problems. But then there is an entire multiverse out there to explore. Failing all that, just make a pocket dimension, load it with security and suspend yourself for 100, 500, 1,000 years. By then, things should have changed enough to leave you well behind the curve in events and magic to require a lot of new study and exploration to catch up. Then again, you could always study from elves to learn how they go for centuries or longer. There might be a few other creatures, though I think most extraplanar creatures like celestials and demons just are the way they are, meaning they have an innate purpose that drives them, so you probably wouldn't learn much from them. Anyway, I've run campaigns in the "Immortals" level of the old D&D. The characters were basically lesser gods, though they could work their way up the ladder. They were immortal in that they didn't age but they could be killed and I think that is a key difference. If there was no way to be killed that would probably wear on you after a while because eternity really would mean eternity. Since you could be killed, maybe the occasional adventure against suitable enemies might liven things up for a while. If all else fails, don't become immortal unless you have a driving obsession to keep you going, like keeping demons out the Prime Material or putting together the biggest and most complete bottlecap collection in all the multiverse.
Magicianguy131 06-30-06, 01:02 PM	LICH!LICH!LICH!LICH!LICH!LICH!LICH! You can also be a good lich (Libirs Mortis). Or you can create a spell that lets you suck the life out of other people so you gain long-life.
lukelightning 06-30-06, 01:20 PM	Cheap immorality? Count me in!
lukelightning 06-30-06, 01:24 PM	...Lichs die instantly when their phlactery is destroyed.. Not true; they just can't be recreated out of the phylactery if it's destroyed. So if you destroy a lich's phylactery before you destroy the lich, the lich is unharmed (but now has to make a new phylactery).
aelryinth 06-30-06, 05:14 PM	First of all, I can't find any rule that says just because you become an Outsider you become immortal. Secondly, the Astral Plane stops time. You don't age, etc while there...but as soon as you leave it, it all 'catches up'. So, live on the Astral Plane a thousand years, get swatted by a Primsatic Ray, end up in Arborea, and die instantly as you age a thousand years in an instant. The plane would become your prison. Also note, Kotschcie's layer of the Abyss stops all aging of mortals, if you like to keep your player's forever dodging armies of fiendish frost giants and the like. ==Aelryinth
aelryinth 06-30-06, 05:15 PM	Not true; they just can't be recreated out of the phylactery if it's destroyed. So if you destroy a lich's phylactery before you destroy the lich, the lich is unharmed (but now has to make a new phylactery). Actually, the main problem is he can't make a new phylactery...the old one housed his soul, and now his soul is gone. He went from being able to bounce back if destroyed to This Is It. Hence why liches like to keep those phylacteries very, very safe. ==+Aelryinth
WorshipJackSparrow 07-10-06, 03:01 PM	If all you want immortality to do is stop the physical aging process, use Longevity, a mere sixth level sorc/wiz spell, and add permanency, a fifth level sorc/wiz spell. no more aging that day and then immediately no more aging ever! I personally asked for an immunity to drugs (alcohol and recreational drugs, not poisons) and was given it for nothing. Good GM see.
malignor 07-10-06, 04:35 PM	Anyone who has access to the Polymorph any Object spell can become immortal, easy. Polymorph myself into... myself as a young adult! This technique is available to any wizard/sorcerer with the spell, and also for clerics of trickery of sufficient level. Even rogues and bards can just use a scroll with UMD. Just keep your eye out for the inevitables.
Zeful 07-11-06, 01:39 PM	what happens when the druid die of old age?? Nothing really if you play it right, a simple greater ring of spell storing fixes the whole driud death problem. You have the driud cast reincarnate into the ring, kill the druid, then reincarnate the druid. Druid kills you then reincarnates you. Lather, rinse, repeat. One of the hangups with reincarnate though is you don't have control of the form you are reincarnated into. Wish allows you to get your old body back, but that also implies you regain the age penalties. If your DM intpritets this as you get your body back but you don't age (which is possible as the reincarnate spell says nothing about regaining aging penaties, or for that matter losing them, but I may be wrong) you can have your body back and be immortal. Look out for maruts.
Black_Puffin 07-12-06, 12:54 PM	Okay, you guys are creative. The polymorph any object should work. I've never heard of longevity and you'd have to have a liberal DM to get away with that. I also conceed that lichs must die to become lichs...
Black_Puffin 07-12-06, 06:01 PM	oh...and about those Maruts. You have the time, just build counter-construct weapons. +5 construct bane dancing greatswords x 6! Yeehaw! Now... all I have to figure out is how to deal with the enervation of the Kolyaruts...
Zeful 07-13-06, 12:38 AM	You don't have to deal with Kolyaruts they are the ultimate enforcement of contracts. You have to deal with Zelkhuts, who enforce justice. And destroying Maruts coutns as dening justice to me. As for the anti-construct weapon, +5 Construct Bane Javelin of Returning. And because your destroying inevitables, you gain experiance and may level up beyond the level lost from reincarnate Just pick up levels of Ranger with favored enemy Constructs as your first choice, eventually getting a +12 to attack and damage against constructs with the above weapon.
FlameLover 07-13-06, 05:25 AM	I'll just throw this out there: I dislike the idea that as you age your Spot & Listen checks get better, as well as your memory and general logic. So in my games I make all ability scores suffer the penalties listed for physical ability scores. Oh and for immortality, you can't pass up being a Dread Necromancer either (if becoming a Lich normally is just too much of a pain).
green_yawgmoth 07-13-06, 07:45 AM	Ok, This thread got me wondering: is there someway to gain eternal life without eternal youth? The reason for this is that I'm playing a monk in an evil campian. The Idea with our group is that each one of us, in our epic levels, will have achived immortality and together take over the world. We'll then rule it for all eternity- or so we think. Right after we finsh that campain, we'll start a completly new one 10,000 years later with different good characters that will try to stop all the tyrany in the world our prevous characters created. :) Regardless, each one of us has agreed to get their longevity in a competely different way, for flavor purposes. Our cleric becoming a lich, our sorcerer going to become a full dragon somehow ect. The point is that I'm going to be getting Timeless Body, so I think it would be a good idea to keep aging. I imagen that I'll keep gaining the aging bonuses that way, and doesn't run into the problem Black_Puffin mentoned. You guys know any way to do this? You think I could Wish for this flawed immortality?Take the Extended Lifespan epic feat a few times; epic bonus feats accrue pretty quickly if you go monk >20 (which is not at all a bad idea). Or, just get your sorcerer friend to create an epic spell that will extend your lifespan by X years; it's pretty cheap, and you could go nuts on the mitigating factors of time spent (knock it up to 100 days max), and just by getting your cleric buddy in on things (and maybe a few acolytes from his church?), you could knock the years added up quite a bit more. Also, does your sorcerer friend intend on going dragon ascendant when he gets his full dragon status? They only have a max age of something like 2,400 years, plus however many times they can beat the con check (1 made every year). I think you/your DM may be overshooting a bit on the immortality bit, if you all intend on using different methods. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Black_Puffin 07-13-06, 01:48 PM	I looked at Polymorph any object this morning, I don't think it'd work: you gain the intelligence of the polymorphed form. Unless your DM is diplomatic, you could revert to an exact copy of yourself at that time. The DM could argue that your memories and experience could vanish with the years and the age modifiers. I was paging through the Expanded Psionics Handbook and found a practically immortal creature as a base race, Elan. You'd have be a human, petition and lose your memories but you'd be nigh-immortal. Personally, I'd stick with lich...
yeti_master 07-13-06, 03:12 PM	The clone plan wouldnt work to keep with the mental bonus's. Here's why: when you are brought back by clone, you have the memories, knowledge, etc. of back when you were cloned. so if you clone yourself young, grow old, and bring yourself back, you are young again both physically and mentally. I think.
Black_Puffin 07-13-06, 03:57 PM	Zeful, what I meant by dealing with kolyaruts is I have to deal with a kolyarut rogue that my brother pitted against my best villians as a third party interloper from his half of a campaign (two DMs, two stories, same PCs, different settings). Kolyaruts enforce principles not just contracts and agreements, and this guy has a programming error the size of Alaska because the PCs created a situation where he went into a loop of sorts (not uncommon with single-minded kolyaruts). Now the Kolyaruts are even gunning for him, to bring him back for reprogramming. My main villian is a lich with a few templates added on, but his main minions are mortal and highly suceptable to negative levels. When he shows up (at agreed upon times, not random), the crap hits the fan. He is not unbalencing, just really hard to kill. I doubt even the epic-lich could stop him in a straight fight given the current progression. Maruts aren't a threat, this guy has taken out their fiend folio big brothers. To cause some major havoc to inevitables, anarchic weapons and water. Bypasses their DR and fast healing. EDIT: Kolyaruts do enforce only contracts, oaths, and agreements, this guy just has a pretty liberal oath to enforce.
Doc Phobia 07-14-06, 09:08 AM	Or, just play Warforged characters. ;) Check out the Aging Effects table on page 27 of the ESB! :D
ksbsnowowl 07-15-06, 09:12 AM	The point is that I'm going to be getting Timeless Body, so I think it would be a good idea to keep aging. I imagen that I'll keep gaining the aging bonuses that way, and doesn't run into the problem Black_Puffin mentoned. You guys know any way to do this? You think I could Wish for this flawed immortality?If you take all ten levels of the Cloud Anchorite PrC (Frostburn - very monk-oriented), they gain an ability that keeps them from ever dying of old age. They still gain the pluses/negatives to stats from aging, but never die from old age. If you want to remain young and immortal within 20 levels, Go Monk 5/Tattoed Monk 5 (the one from CW)/Cloud Anchorite 10. Get the Bellflower tattoo (I think that's the one) that eventually gives you the timeless body ability. Alternatively, play a gestalt Druid//Cloud Anchorite. :P
Black_Puffin 07-20-06, 10:40 AM	What about Mind Seed (psionics) and clones or other creatures? Technically, you don't keep living but your clone would. You'd just have to use Thought Bottles to keep memories up to date. Maybe Mind Seed as a contingeny when you die to be inflicted on your slayer? There should be a spell version of Mind Seed... I did that with old school True Telekenisis.
JWT 07-20-06, 03:41 PM	The mental ability increases and penalties DO NOT RE-ACRUE!!!! They are one shot deals! If you enter the age cat more than once it doesn't stack as far as I know. Exxxxactly. Or put another way. The reason why you get new physical stats is you get a new physical body. You do not get a new mind. This you now have two ages: The physical age of your mobile flesh bag, and the age of your conciousness. So - you conciousness may be venerable (and get all the bonuses associated with it) but you body is still young, and thus gets no penalties.
ArcTan 07-20-06, 06:28 PM	Im afraid this argument has no ground to stand on. reincarnation is a part of a druids philosphy of the natural order and they wouldnt have access to the spell if they werent suppose to use it. As long as the creature didnt die of old age then hes good to go. No, not really. Just because he *has* a spell doesn't mean he's supposed to go around using it all the time. It's an option for him to use if he needs to bring someone back from the dead in order to complete an important quest, but he can't go reincarnating people all the time because he feels like it, any more than he's supposed to go around casting _awaken_ on every single animal he meets.
SeptimusMagistos 07-21-06, 12:05 PM	Depending on your campaign, these ways may be better: Eat some ambrosia. Life is good when you're a greek god. Seek out Peter Pan and hang out with him. Nothing says immortality like a loophole in the rules of reality themselves. Go to the god of time, steal his power, keep yourself young. Go to whatever physical manifestation of death exists in your world, then beat it up. Again and again and again. Keep this up until it's so scared of you it'll never come near you. Yay!