A problem with lichdom [Archive] - Wizards Community

A problem with lichdom [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vagrond
02-05-07, 01:59 AM I see something of a problem with lichdom. If a human wanted immortality, wouldn't they first polymorph any object into an elf permanently and live for a couple of thousand years before deciding to become undead?
Turaj
02-05-07, 02:05 AM couple thousand years???? they live to be 700 - 800 years tops. but yeah they could do that. but lichdom not only grants immortality through not aging, but also through the ability of being, for all intents and perposes, invincible through the resurection power of the phylactery.
syrinth
02-05-07, 02:06 AM Well, for one elves only really live for a maximum of 700 or so years.

As for that, well lets just ignore silly transmutation spells because quite frankly the things you can do with them is appalling :D

Also, becoming a lich gets you several other abilities such as the one called "you don't freaking die." :D
Vagrond
02-05-07, 02:13 AM couple thousand years???? they live to be 700 - 800 years tops. but yeah they could do that. but lichdom not only grants immortality through not aging, but also through the ability of being, for all intents and perposes, invincible through the resurection power of the phylactery.

Oh, sorry, I was thinking a bit Tolkieny.
Tavatanuse
02-05-07, 03:52 AM Wouldn’t that be subject to a good disjoining?

And if a 90 year old human turns into a 90 year old elf...What happens if you turn a 400 year old elf into a human?

Besides theres lots of fun to be had with lichdom. Un-live without air! Paralyze people in embarrassing positions! Use your rib cage as a storage device! Poison and several elemental immunities, spell resistance, and the “head of Vecna” party trick, all at a low low price! Its not like you -use- your mortality anyways.
unusualsuspect
02-05-07, 03:56 AM Personally, if you're going with alternative means to live forever merely on the basis of "I don't die of old age", I'd probably prefer using Wish to change into an Elan... or, if psionics is barred, don't killorens from Races of the Wild have no maximum age and not die from old age?
runestar
02-05-07, 07:05 AM You also gain the average physical stats and int score of the typical elf.
This means your uber stats get reduced to str10, dex12, con8 and int10....
Yes, I am afraid. So very afraid....:weep:
HellflameArcanite
02-05-07, 09:26 AM Yeah, turning into an elf is impractical. After all, why extend your lifespan only a few hundred more years when you can extend it through all eternity - and never die of anything except the destruction of your phylactery?
tarkin
02-05-07, 12:03 PM Lichdom has some severe penalties.

Among others is the risk of death on a failed attempt.
Vedic Cold
02-05-07, 01:09 PM Lichdom has some severe penalties.

Among others is the risk of death on a failed attempt.

I'm curious about this statement. What's your basis? I don't recall any mention of such a risk in the SRD or the text of the MM. At worst, the item creation process can be interrupted as per the normal rules for such things, but that would only result in lost money and time.
tarkin
02-05-07, 01:43 PM It may have changed. But originally, the process of becoming a Lich involved drinking a deadly poison.

You might become a lich, or you might not. But either way, you are no longer alive.
Vedic Cold
02-05-07, 01:57 PM Thank you for appeasing my curiosity. It would appear that the core rules have changed in that regard, but the method you describe reminds me of a third-party sourcebook (3rd edition) I once owned that was dedicated to necromancy. I believe it was one of the Ecyclopedia Arcane series. Among other things, it detailed the process of becoming a lich, including drinking a deadly potion that had to be brewed perfectly or else it would simply kill you outright - and you could only tell if it was done properly by making an INT check after you drank it. Fail the roll, and it's time to make a new character.
JulesCARV
02-05-07, 01:57 PM My favorite idea (crunch-wise) for a lich is a lich who isn't primarily a spellcaster, but mostly a skilled stealthy character: i.e., a level 7 assassin or level 14 ranger with the practiced spellcaster feat. Such a character would, admittedly, gain a +4 level adjustment, but would also gain +8 racial skill bonuses to key skills, along with a +2 boost to intelligence and wisdom, further boosting search, spot, listen, etc. They'd be +4-5 ahead of their ECL on key skills, although this is mitigated by the cost of two feats which could have been spent on stuff like stealthy or alertness, and another feat or two they'd have gotten in for levels.

I like the idea of a wood elf ranger lich. Constitution penalty? What's constitution?
Killion
02-05-07, 02:32 PM I concur with Vagrond, but for different reasons.

Clearly there are some benefits to becoming a lich -- +2 to mental stats, immunities, attacks, immortality -- but +4 LA. Despite being designed for spellcasters, lichdom sure does cripple an aspiring archmage.

Kiss your ninth level spells goodbye. Oh wait, you don't have lips.

By the way, it's worth noting that a Dread Necromancer attains lichdom for free as a twentieth level ability.
ascensionblade
02-05-07, 03:25 PM Clearly there are some benefits to becoming a lich -- +2 to mental stats, immunities, attacks, immortality -- but +4 LA. Despite being designed for spellcasters, lichdom sure does cripple an aspiring archmage.

Kiss your ninth level spells goodbye. Oh wait, you don't have lips.

By the way, it's worth noting that a Dread Necromancer attains lichdom for free as a twentieth level ability.

It takes 4 levels, but it is only a +2 CR, so you can still manage 9th lvl spells in a 20 lvl CR game.

Also, if you take 20 lvls of Dread Necromancer, I hope it is for flavor or storyline, because that class has so many worthless lvls that it should never really be taken into the double-digit lvls.
syrinth
02-05-07, 03:28 PM Um, what? Lich has LA +4 CR +2

Also, just because something may not be omgl33t optimized does not mean that it is a bad class. I qutie frankly like the dread necromancer class as is and would only PrC out for flavor reasons since, if I'm playing a DN, I'm probably trying to amass a huge army of the dead and the undead mastery ability is keyed off class and not character levels.

Despite dead levels I rather like the class, although you are entitled to yours just as I am mine:P
Sildatorak
02-05-07, 03:35 PM It may have changed. But originally, the process of becoming a Lich involved drinking a deadly poison.

You might become a lich, or you might not. But either way, you are no longer alive.
It was this way as recently as 2e, and I know that some 3rd party sourcebooks have mentioned it as part of the lich-ifying process.
nightwyrm
02-05-07, 03:44 PM Lichdom sucks. An eternity without functioning naughty bits? No wonder they all go mad and try to destroy the world.
Vharuck
02-05-07, 04:02 PM Necessary level to cast Polymorph Any Object: 17
Necessary level to become a lich: 11
ryeookin
02-05-07, 04:58 PM Lichdom sucks. An eternity without functioning naughty bits? No wonder they all go mad and try to destroy the world.

Word. :cool:
robertliguori
02-05-07, 05:16 PM Lichdom sucks. An eternity without functioning naughty bits? No wonder they all go mad and try to destroy the world.

Dude. Alter Self is a level 2 spell, and Vampire Spawn are a valid target for it. You can become the Spawn-equivalent of any humanoid or monstrous humanoid with 4 HD or fewer. Go to town.

Heck, you can Planar Bind multiple succubi at once. You don't even need to go to town, come to that.
keith187
02-05-07, 06:37 PM Since there's a PrC in the Frostborne book that makes it so you never age I'd probably let a PC use a wish to get the same thing. Your body would still age, and after so many years you'd have the aging penaltys apply again, but you'd be ageless.

I know a lot of people will disagree with this, but I don't really care. I've never been in a game or heard of a game where a PC died of old age that didn't already start out really close to the end of it's natural life.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vagrond 02-05-07, 01:59 AM	I see something of a problem with lichdom. If a human wanted immortality, wouldn't they first polymorph any object into an elf permanently and live for a couple of thousand years before deciding to become undead?
Turaj 02-05-07, 02:05 AM	couple thousand years???? they live to be 700 - 800 years tops. but yeah they could do that. but lichdom not only grants immortality through not aging, but also through the ability of being, for all intents and perposes, invincible through the resurection power of the phylactery.
syrinth 02-05-07, 02:06 AM	Well, for one elves only really live for a maximum of 700 or so years. As for that, well lets just ignore silly transmutation spells because quite frankly the things you can do with them is appalling :D Also, becoming a lich gets you several other abilities such as the one called "you don't freaking die." :D
Vagrond 02-05-07, 02:13 AM	couple thousand years???? they live to be 700 - 800 years tops. but yeah they could do that. but lichdom not only grants immortality through not aging, but also through the ability of being, for all intents and perposes, invincible through the resurection power of the phylactery. Oh, sorry, I was thinking a bit Tolkieny.
Tavatanuse 02-05-07, 03:52 AM	Wouldn’t that be subject to a good disjoining? And if a 90 year old human turns into a 90 year old elf...What happens if you turn a 400 year old elf into a human? Besides theres lots of fun to be had with lichdom. Un-live without air! Paralyze people in embarrassing positions! Use your rib cage as a storage device! Poison and several elemental immunities, spell resistance, and the “head of Vecna” party trick, all at a low low price! Its not like you -use- your mortality anyways.
unusualsuspect 02-05-07, 03:56 AM	Personally, if you're going with alternative means to live forever merely on the basis of "I don't die of old age", I'd probably prefer using Wish to change into an Elan... or, if psionics is barred, don't killorens from Races of the Wild have no maximum age and not die from old age?
runestar 02-05-07, 07:05 AM	You also gain the average physical stats and int score of the typical elf. This means your uber stats get reduced to str10, dex12, con8 and int10.... Yes, I am afraid. So very afraid....:weep:
HellflameArcanite 02-05-07, 09:26 AM	Yeah, turning into an elf is impractical. After all, why extend your lifespan only a few hundred more years when you can extend it through all eternity - and never die of anything except the destruction of your phylactery?
tarkin 02-05-07, 12:03 PM	Lichdom has some severe penalties. Among others is the risk of death on a failed attempt.
Vedic Cold 02-05-07, 01:09 PM	Lichdom has some severe penalties. Among others is the risk of death on a failed attempt. I'm curious about this statement. What's your basis? I don't recall any mention of such a risk in the SRD or the text of the MM. At worst, the item creation process can be interrupted as per the normal rules for such things, but that would only result in lost money and time.
tarkin 02-05-07, 01:43 PM	It may have changed. But originally, the process of becoming a Lich involved drinking a deadly poison. You might become a lich, or you might not. But either way, you are no longer alive.
Vedic Cold 02-05-07, 01:57 PM	Thank you for appeasing my curiosity. It would appear that the core rules have changed in that regard, but the method you describe reminds me of a third-party sourcebook (3rd edition) I once owned that was dedicated to necromancy. I believe it was one of the Ecyclopedia Arcane series. Among other things, it detailed the process of becoming a lich, including drinking a deadly potion that had to be brewed perfectly or else it would simply kill you outright - and you could only tell if it was done properly by making an INT check after you drank it. Fail the roll, and it's time to make a new character.
JulesCARV 02-05-07, 01:57 PM	My favorite idea (crunch-wise) for a lich is a lich who isn't primarily a spellcaster, but mostly a skilled stealthy character: i.e., a level 7 assassin or level 14 ranger with the practiced spellcaster feat. Such a character would, admittedly, gain a +4 level adjustment, but would also gain +8 racial skill bonuses to key skills, along with a +2 boost to intelligence and wisdom, further boosting search, spot, listen, etc. They'd be +4-5 ahead of their ECL on key skills, although this is mitigated by the cost of two feats which could have been spent on stuff like stealthy or alertness, and another feat or two they'd have gotten in for levels. I like the idea of a wood elf ranger lich. Constitution penalty? What's constitution?
Killion 02-05-07, 02:32 PM	I concur with Vagrond, but for different reasons. Clearly there are some benefits to becoming a lich -- +2 to mental stats, immunities, attacks, immortality -- but +4 LA. Despite being designed for spellcasters, lichdom sure does cripple an aspiring archmage. Kiss your ninth level spells goodbye. Oh wait, you don't have lips. By the way, it's worth noting that a Dread Necromancer attains lichdom for free as a twentieth level ability.
ascensionblade 02-05-07, 03:25 PM	Clearly there are some benefits to becoming a lich -- +2 to mental stats, immunities, attacks, immortality -- but +4 LA. Despite being designed for spellcasters, lichdom sure does cripple an aspiring archmage. Kiss your ninth level spells goodbye. Oh wait, you don't have lips. By the way, it's worth noting that a Dread Necromancer attains lichdom for free as a twentieth level ability. It takes 4 levels, but it is only a +2 CR, so you can still manage 9th lvl spells in a 20 lvl CR game. Also, if you take 20 lvls of Dread Necromancer, I hope it is for flavor or storyline, because that class has so many worthless lvls that it should never really be taken into the double-digit lvls.
syrinth 02-05-07, 03:28 PM	Um, what? Lich has LA +4 CR +2 Also, just because something may not be omgl33t optimized does not mean that it is a bad class. I qutie frankly like the dread necromancer class as is and would only PrC out for flavor reasons since, if I'm playing a DN, I'm probably trying to amass a huge army of the dead and the undead mastery ability is keyed off class and not character levels. Despite dead levels I rather like the class, although you are entitled to yours just as I am mine:P
Sildatorak 02-05-07, 03:35 PM	It may have changed. But originally, the process of becoming a Lich involved drinking a deadly poison. You might become a lich, or you might not. But either way, you are no longer alive. It was this way as recently as 2e, and I know that some 3rd party sourcebooks have mentioned it as part of the lich-ifying process.
nightwyrm 02-05-07, 03:44 PM	Lichdom sucks. An eternity without functioning naughty bits? No wonder they all go mad and try to destroy the world.
Vharuck 02-05-07, 04:02 PM	Necessary level to cast Polymorph Any Object: 17 Necessary level to become a lich: 11
ryeookin 02-05-07, 04:58 PM	Lichdom sucks. An eternity without functioning naughty bits? No wonder they all go mad and try to destroy the world. Word. :cool:
robertliguori 02-05-07, 05:16 PM	Lichdom sucks. An eternity without functioning naughty bits? No wonder they all go mad and try to destroy the world. Dude. Alter Self is a level 2 spell, and Vampire Spawn are a valid target for it. You can become the Spawn-equivalent of any humanoid or monstrous humanoid with 4 HD or fewer. Go to town. Heck, you can Planar Bind multiple succubi at once. You don't even need to go to town, come to that.
keith187 02-05-07, 06:37 PM	Since there's a PrC in the Frostborne book that makes it so you never age I'd probably let a PC use a wish to get the same thing. Your body would still age, and after so many years you'd have the aging penaltys apply again, but you'd be ageless. I know a lot of people will disagree with this, but I don't really care. I've never been in a game or heard of a game where a PC died of old age that didn't already start out really close to the end of it's natural life.