Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kroll 10-07-04, 09:27 AM	There is one thing that has always boggled my mind. Magic missile spell does 1d4+1 dam, max 5d4 +5..average dam 5 x 2.5 + 5 = 17.5/no save good range Flaming hands 1d6..max 5d6..average damage 5 x 3.5 = 17.5/save for half very short range schocking graspe 1d6..max 5d6..average damage 5 x 3.5 = 17.5/save for half fireball (3rd level) 1d6/level....max 10d6...average damage 10 x 3.5/save for half My question is.. Magic missil is imo the best damage dealing spell of 1st level, making all others totally negiable. you always hit with magic missile, concealmetn does nothing, there is much less spell resistance against this than electricity or fire damage... Magic missile shoudl be lowered to at least 1d4..and no +1..or have a save for half on it....why shoudln't you be able to dodge the missiles? A boggled GM thru 17 years now ;)
Kheldren 10-07-04, 09:41 AM	First of - the magic missile/flaming hand comparison is a bit unfair - MM is a single target spell if doing max damage, or a 5 target spell if spreading it - BH is AOE and can therefore affect far more creatures. Also to a 2nd level wizard BH is better - 2d4 v 1d4+1 (Yes BH is d4 per level is 3.5 - I just checked the SRD). So at 4th level we have 4d4 v 2d4+2 - BH is better. Shocking Grasp is the weakish cousin - 1d6/level, single target - but again no save (also just checked the SRD for 3.5) - so for a single target this is the best spell at 5th level. Yes fireball is not as strong as it used to be - but the area is still very useful (it is huge, and so is the range) and the no longer expanding to fill actually makes it better. Yes it is a nuisance having to use higher level spells to do more damage, but that is game balance. Each spell has it's uses, and MM is good, but it is balanced. (Bring back the old Basic D&D magic missile - at 36th level 15d6+15 damage no save can really ruin someone's day.)
Seeker95 10-07-04, 10:00 AM	Magic missile is an archetype that breaks the rules in every way. But as an archetype, magic missile is here to stay. And most first level mages like it that way.
edsonaoki 10-07-04, 10:08 AM	You forgot that magic missile increases damage every 2 levels, while the other spells increase damage every level. Magic missile is a little better than other offensive spells, but you should agree that a spell that does 1d4 damage at levels 1-2 and 2d4 damage at levels 3-4 is simply useless. So, the point of magic missile is low-level spellcaster having a useful direct-damage spell.
pres_man 10-07-04, 10:18 AM	Also remember Shield negates magic missile
ballekalle 10-07-04, 12:04 PM	The thing is, that magic missile is far better at high levels, and much more useless at lower levels. I find it balancing, though.
Kroll 10-07-04, 03:17 PM	sorry bout the inconsistancies..I was at work and wrote from free memory.. I'm not saying MM is not se full..heck I play withit the way it is.. just saying that the other 1st level spells are not balnced.. MM is maxxed at 10th level.....5d4.. schocking grasp and flaming hand is maxxed at level 5. truth that at 2nd level and 4th level flaming hands will do 1 point more damage and have an AoE...still Why woudl anyone (in purely game mechanical terms) take especially schocking grasp or to a minor degree flaming hands over MM. Magic missile is a good all round tool for a wizard..just saying the other spells are unbalnced compared to it....basic statistics should prove that point.
Seeker95 10-07-04, 03:26 PM	Why would anyone (in purely game mechanical terms) take especially schocking grasp or to a minor degree flaming hands over MM?My current players would love to have chosen flaming hands over magic missile. They just discovered the hard way that the organized band of humanoids that kidnapped the weaponsmith living outside the village was composed of trolls -- not ogres. Unfamiliar with the MMIII, they assumed the descriptions of the cave trolls and forest trolls must have been ogres and other related kin. You are, however, approaching this the wrong way. It is not that all the other 1st levle spells are too weak. Magic missile is out of line with all other 1st level spells. It is barely too weak to be a second level spell, but definitely too strong for a 1st level spell. But tradition is tradition. And as far as "broken" spells go, this is a mild fracture.
tate 10-07-04, 07:24 PM	I think that MM is okay the way it is. Think about how BH is almost the same, and maxes sooner, and has AoE. To me BH is amazing, sure its not a game winner in all situations, but even at low levels watch as hoards of goblins fry. Shocking grasp is also great, its a one target lightning bolt basically, just use the familiar to deliver the attack for you and you get great range. But magic missile can really only hurt one opponent, especially now that the "if you take damage while casting the spell, it is lost" rule of 2e has been removed (back in the day no enemy wizard ever got a spell off against these things in my group), plus Shield and the incredibly cheap (but sadly narrow) Broach of Shielding make MM useless. I think it stays in line with the balance when compared to the other "main" damage spells at first level, which are all IMO pretty darn good at higher levels.
Bloodtide_the_Red 10-07-04, 09:07 PM	You realy can't look at magic missle with the 'average damage per level and spell effect' chart. It's not made that way. Magic Missle is, simply put, a bone thrown to spellcasters..and it always has been. Look at it this way and take our poor 1st level mage on that first level adventure(we've all been there right?). The wizard gets one whole 1st level spell. One whole spell. So basicaly, for 95% of the adventure, the wizard is just a guy with no armor, poor weapons and very little else combatwise....except that one spell. So at some point in the adventure the big moment comes, the wizard gets to cast that one whole spell. If it's a 'to hit' spell, the wizard has only a small chance of hitting anything, other then say vermin or such. So you shoot off your one and olny spell..and miss. And that's it, your not a wizard any more. You cast your one whole spell, and now your back to shooting stuff with your crossbow. Sure does not make you feel like much of a mage. And it's even worse if you cast that one whole spell and miss, it has a feeling of such a waste. Why even be a wizard if they 'can't do anything'. So...enter Magic Missle. Now the wizard has one spell, that will 'always' work. At the very least it gives the 'mage feeling', they can cast the spell and have some effect in combat. And this goes for all the time they are low level too. Even when they get ten spells a day, they know they still have MM to help out. Now this goes only for the pure combat adventure-minded wizard. And yes, plenty of folks could get away with out MM. Though I think most players like this little classic 'cheat' broken spell. BT
Edymnion 10-07-04, 10:40 PM	Magic missile is out of line with all other 1st level spells. It is barely too weak to be a second level spell, but definitely too strong for a 1st level spell. But tradition is tradition. Bingo, you have to consider the history of the spell. Back in the day of OD&D, a first level wizard got a whopping ONE spell per day. Just one. They were given Magic Missle (which at the time did the same damage as a crossbow) for their one spell so they could actually stand a chance of hurting something with their one spell a day. And from there, it became an (if not THE) iconic D&D spell. Yes, the designers have often been quoted as saying that MM is too strong for a first level spell, but that it wasn't strong enough for a second level spell (which is true). But, they couldn't just completely change MM to either drop it's power or increase it without making a big change to the way first level mages operated, and killing a valuable tradition. So, they leave it where it is, the way it is, and it has become the 1st level benchmark of "No first level spell can ever be more powerful than Magic Missle". Personally though, I don't use the spell. My sorceress uses a homebrew version of Lesser Electric Orb. Its essentially a Magic Missle spell that does electric damage, takes a ranged touch attack to hit, but does a d6 per orb, and you get +3 against metal clad opponents. Basically, trade in force for the +3 against selected foes, and trade in the auto hit for increased damage dice, and leave the rest the same. Much more flavorful.
Dungeon Master's Pillow 10-07-04, 11:13 PM	I don't know about you guys, but at low levels I'd pick sleep or color spray any day of the week. By the time mm really starts to outpace other first level spells, you've got 3rd and 4th level spells that are loads more useful for damage, which means that your first level slots can be used for utility spells. Magic missle may be overpowered compared to other 1st level spells, but it still sucks compared to higher level stuff. Put another way, by the time you need to dip into your first level slots to win a battle, you may be better off just casting expeditious retreat and getting out of there.
Seeker95 10-08-04, 09:23 AM	Magic missle may be overpowered compared to other 1st level spells, but it still sucks compared to higher level stuff. Isn't that true of all first level spells? That's why they aren't "higher level stuff".
smalo 10-08-04, 09:49 AM	Shocking grasp: Is totaly stupid spell. Magic missile is better at any situastion at any level! Also, I have had very many situations were MM is the only thing which could hurt our enemy. The thing was imune to everything we could do, except for MM. So, although I agree that MM is overpowered, I am sad to say that we need it. It is sad to say, but in many situations we simply need something which can almost garantee damage. That is why MM is unchanged. And it is why we need it. Giving the MM a 1d4 per 2.level is a nice touch. In that way a wizard choosing another spell due to rollplaying reasons would not be totaly nerfed game-balance wice compeared to the MM throwing wizard. Shocking grasp needs a boost! My suggestion: :in addision, if the enemy takes damage from this spell, he/she/it must make a fortitude save or be dazed for 1 round. That would make it semi-ok.
Seeker95 10-08-04, 09:57 AM	Shocking grasp: Is totaly stupid spell. Magic missile is better at any situastion at any level! Shocking grasp needs a boost!The first statement is utterly false. The second is true, but we've already explained why. The third statement is true only if you want to change the level. Shocking grasp is a first level spell. If it is not powerful enough for you, move on to second level spells. If you can't think of any reason to take it, then don't. All of this has more to do with you than with the spell.
smalo 10-08-04, 10:07 AM	I might agree with you, but compared to MM shocking grasp needs a boost. Ranged touch is a risky thing...
GoodTeletubby 10-08-04, 11:15 AM	I might agree with you, but compared to MM shocking grasp needs a boost. Ranged touch is a risky thing... especially when there's no ranged involved
Dungeon Master's Pillow 10-08-04, 02:54 PM	Isn't that true of all first level spells? That's why they aren't "higher level stuff". That's my point. By the time it's "unbalanced," it's too weak to really make a difference. Furthermore, I would still say that you'll get more use out of the 1st level utility spells than you will from mm at higher levels. EDIT: I would agree than shocking grasp needs something to distinguish it from mm, even if that doesn't make them "equal."
Seeker95 10-08-04, 05:43 PM	Stop comparing any first level spell to magic missile. It is an archetype. It breaks the mold. It breaks the standard. It breaks the "rules". It is a 1.5th level spell. If you want to judge the power of a first level spell, compare to any first level spell other than magic missile.