A Question about 'Cloud Mind' [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Question about 'Cloud Mind' [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
worst_player_ever
10-21-06, 06:20 PM I saw this spell the other day -it's on expanded psyonics handbook- and there are some things about it I don't quite get...

When you cast cloud mind and the target misses the WILL SAVE, you make yourself completely undetectable to the subject by erasing all awareness of your presence from his mind.
You are invisible and inaudible to the creature, it can't detect your presence by means of blindsence , blindsight , scent, or tremorsence.
It cannot pinpoint your location by any means.
The subject remains unaware of your actions , provided you do not make any attacks or cause any obvious or directly threatening changes in the subject's enviroment .

Now, If you attack the subject creature , the effect ends.

Here's the part I'm interested in.

Could a psion/wielder go behind the creature and attempt a coup de grace??

Or does he become visible just when he starts his attack???

In PHB it says that you can perform a coup de grace on a helpless opponent... Could a person that has absolutely no awereness of your presence, be considered as 'helpless' and is he, therefore , a valid target for a coup de grace??

Any help would be appreciated. ^_^
PhaedrusXY
10-21-06, 06:23 PM No, the target would just be denied their Dex mod to AC, just exactly as if they were attacked by an invisible target.
Tempest Stormwind
10-21-06, 06:30 PM A helpless person isn't just unaware of your presence (that just means they're denied their Dexterity bonus versus your attacks). Helpless is absolutely unable to defend themselves -- asleep, tied up, that sort of thing.

Attacking a subject means they'd see you, but since they weren't aware of your presence it was more along the lines of attacking while invisible. Cloud Mind is The Psionic Invisibility, except it only affects a single target while you concentrate (but it DOES shut down all the senses, not just sight).
worst_player_ever
10-22-06, 03:03 AM PhaedrusXY & TempestStormWind , (both very nice names btw) thank you for your responces.

So actually , the target , is not considered helpless -just lika a victim from an invisibility spell. I Actually noticed the similarity between 'Invisibility' and 'Cloud Mind' but I wasn't sure about the rules for the coup de grace, so that's why I asked the question. ^_^

the target would just be denied their Dex mod to AC
And the caster can do a sneak attack , but not a coup de grace, right?

Also , it says that when you attack the subject , the effect ends. But when exactly do you become visible???? Immediately after you hit/miss or immediately after you try to attack?
Tempest Stormwind
10-22-06, 03:41 AM PhaedrusXY & TempestStormWind , (both very nice names btw) thank you for your responces.You're welcome. Incidentally, my name has a space in it (much like your true name does to separate the given name from the surname) and the W is not capitalized. :pSo actually , the target , is not considered helpless -just lika a victim from an invisibility spell. I Actually noticed the similarity between 'Invisibility' and 'Cloud Mind' but I wasn't sure about the rules for the coup de grace, so that's why I asked the question. ^_^If in doubt, always consult the PHB or the SRD. Here's the link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm) (Search for "Coup de grace") to confirm. If you're uncertain of a definition, they're all linked there too.And the caster can do a sneak attack , but not a coup de grace, right?Correct, provided he has a source of sneak attack. I'd suggest looking into the Shadowmind PrC in Complete Adventurer (which is actually based around Cloud Mind), the Psychic Rogue from the Mind's Eye, or the Lurk or Ebon Saint from Complete Psionic if this is up your alley.Also , it says that when you attack the subject , the effect ends. But when exactly do you become visible???? Immediately after you hit/miss or immediately after you try to attack?As you attack. Since they won't be able to react to you until after your action anyway, there's no mechanical difference between becoming visible before you raise the blade and becoming visible after you've hit them. All that matters is that after the attack, their mind is no longer clouded.
worst_player_ever
10-22-06, 03:56 AM Incidentally, my name has a space in it (much like your true name does to separate the given name from the surname) and the W is not capitalized. :p
:D
Correct, provided he has a source of sneak attack.
Of course
I'd suggest looking into the Shadowmind PrC in Complete Adventurer (which is actually based around Cloud Mind), the Psychic Rogue from the Mind's Eye, or the Lurk or Ebon Saint from Complete Psionic if this is up your alley.
Hmmm.... Ok , I'll give them a look.
As you attack. Since they won't be able to react to you until after your action anyway, there's no mechanical difference between becoming visible before you raise the blade and becoming visible after you've hit them. All that matters is that after the attack, their mind is no longer clouded.
I guess this makes sense. But the only reason I asked this question is about the sneak attack bit.

If a caster tries to sneak attack a cloud minded target , I would rule that there isn't much time for the creature to react so that he/she can avoid the extra damage from the sneak attack.

Would you say that it's a right way to 'describe' that particular situation?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
worst_player_ever 10-21-06, 06:20 PM	I saw this spell the other day -it's on expanded psyonics handbook- and there are some things about it I don't quite get... When you cast cloud mind and the target misses the WILL SAVE, you make yourself completely undetectable to the subject by erasing all awareness of your presence from his mind. You are invisible and inaudible to the creature, it can't detect your presence by means of blindsence , blindsight , scent, or tremorsence. It cannot pinpoint your location by any means. The subject remains unaware of your actions , provided you do not make any attacks or cause any obvious or directly threatening changes in the subject's enviroment . Now, If you attack the subject creature , the effect ends. Here's the part I'm interested in. Could a psion/wielder go behind the creature and attempt a coup de grace?? Or does he become visible just when he starts his attack??? In PHB it says that you can perform a coup de grace on a helpless opponent... Could a person that has absolutely no awereness of your presence, be considered as 'helpless' and is he, therefore , a valid target for a coup de grace?? Any help would be appreciated. ^_^
PhaedrusXY 10-21-06, 06:23 PM	No, the target would just be denied their Dex mod to AC, just exactly as if they were attacked by an invisible target.
Tempest Stormwind 10-21-06, 06:30 PM	A helpless person isn't just unaware of your presence (that just means they're denied their Dexterity bonus versus your attacks). Helpless is absolutely unable to defend themselves -- asleep, tied up, that sort of thing. Attacking a subject means they'd see you, but since they weren't aware of your presence it was more along the lines of attacking while invisible. Cloud Mind is The Psionic Invisibility, except it only affects a single target while you concentrate (but it DOES shut down all the senses, not just sight).
worst_player_ever 10-22-06, 03:03 AM	PhaedrusXY & TempestStormWind , (both very nice names btw) thank you for your responces. So actually , the target , is not considered helpless -just lika a victim from an invisibility spell. I Actually noticed the similarity between 'Invisibility' and 'Cloud Mind' but I wasn't sure about the rules for the coup de grace, so that's why I asked the question. ^_^ the target would just be denied their Dex mod to AC And the caster can do a sneak attack , but not a coup de grace, right? Also , it says that when you attack the subject , the effect ends. But when exactly do you become visible???? Immediately after you hit/miss or immediately after you try to attack?
Tempest Stormwind 10-22-06, 03:41 AM	PhaedrusXY & TempestStormWind , (both very nice names btw) thank you for your responces.You're welcome. Incidentally, my name has a space in it (much like your true name does to separate the given name from the surname) and the W is not capitalized. :pSo actually , the target , is not considered helpless -just lika a victim from an invisibility spell. I Actually noticed the similarity between 'Invisibility' and 'Cloud Mind' but I wasn't sure about the rules for the coup de grace, so that's why I asked the question. ^_^If in doubt, always consult the PHB or the SRD. Here's the link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm) (Search for "Coup de grace") to confirm. If you're uncertain of a definition, they're all linked there too.And the caster can do a sneak attack , but not a coup de grace, right?Correct, provided he has a source of sneak attack. I'd suggest looking into the Shadowmind PrC in Complete Adventurer (which is actually based around Cloud Mind), the Psychic Rogue from the Mind's Eye, or the Lurk or Ebon Saint from Complete Psionic if this is up your alley.Also , it says that when you attack the subject , the effect ends. But when exactly do you become visible???? Immediately after you hit/miss or immediately after you try to attack?As you attack. Since they won't be able to react to you until after your action anyway, there's no mechanical difference between becoming visible before you raise the blade and becoming visible after you've hit them. All that matters is that after the attack, their mind is no longer clouded.
worst_player_ever 10-22-06, 03:56 AM	Incidentally, my name has a space in it (much like your true name does to separate the given name from the surname) and the W is not capitalized. :p :D Correct, provided he has a source of sneak attack. Of course I'd suggest looking into the Shadowmind PrC in Complete Adventurer (which is actually based around Cloud Mind), the Psychic Rogue from the Mind's Eye, or the Lurk or Ebon Saint from Complete Psionic if this is up your alley. Hmmm.... Ok , I'll give them a look. As you attack. Since they won't be able to react to you until after your action anyway, there's no mechanical difference between becoming visible before you raise the blade and becoming visible after you've hit them. All that matters is that after the attack, their mind is no longer clouded. I guess this makes sense. But the only reason I asked this question is about the sneak attack bit. If a caster tries to sneak attack a cloud minded target , I would rule that there isn't much time for the creature to react so that he/she can avoid the extra damage from the sneak attack. Would you say that it's a right way to 'describe' that particular situation?