A question about polymorph and equipment ... again [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question about polymorph and equipment ... again [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crox
01-21-06, 02:32 PM I've found two contradicting definitions on the subject:
Can you use polymorph* to turn into a creature with a
template?
Again, the rules don’t explicitly prevent this—and in fact,
some creatures whose forms are possible to assume with
shapechange (such as vampires) exist only as templated
creatures—but a player who wants to use this option is
responsible for providing full statistics for the templated
creature to avoid slowing game play. As always, you must still
abide by the rules for the spell in question (for example, an elf
wizard can’t use alter self to become a half-dragon orc, since
that’s a dragon, not a humanoid).
*The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer to all
spells of the polymorph spell chain (including alter self,
polymorph, baleful polymorph, polymorph any object, and
shapechange), as well as to other effects that refer to spells in
the chain (such as the druid’s wild shape class feature).
What happens to the equipment worn and carried by a
character polymorphed* into another creature capable of
wearing and carrying the same gear? What if the new
creature’s size is different?
Unless stated otherwise, all spells in the polymorph chain
function as described in the alter self spell description, which
states that if the new form is capable of wearing or holding the
item, it remains worn or held; otherwise it melds into the new
form and becomes nonfunctional. A human polymorphed into
another Medium humanoid-shaped form (such as an elf,
grimlock, or bearded devil) can wear or hold all his gear, so it
remains in place.
However, this is one of those times when size definitely
matters, since your gear doesn’t automatically change size as a
result of polymorph. Assuming the new form has appropriate
body locations—for instance, a human polymorphed into a troll
or a pixie—most of your magic items (rings, cloaks, boots, and
other items of magic clothing or jewelry) still fit just fine
regardless of your new size (see “Size and Magic Items” on
page 213 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide).
Nonmagical clothing and accoutrements that don’t fit the
new size meld into the character’s body when he is
polymorphed. (The Sage recommends that DMs err on the side
of leniency when determining what the new form can or can’t
wear.)
Similarly, armor (even magic armor) doesn’t resize to fit
wearers of different sizes. The human described above loses the
benefit of his +1 full plate armor as it melds into his body,
even though the new form is capable of wearing armor.
As long as your new form is capable of holding weapons
(that is, it has hands or other similarly dexterous extremities),
you hold on to whatever weapons you had before the change.
However, since the weapons are no longer of a size appropriate
to you, you take a penalty on attack rolls with them as
described on page 113 of the Player’s Handbook. A human
polymorphed into a troll can still hold his Medium weapons
(although they’re now one size category too small for optimal
use and thus he’ll suffer a –2 penalty on attack rolls). On the
plus side, he can now wield that Medium greatsword with only
one hand, meaning he could pick up a shield or a second
weapon to wield simultaneously.
*The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer to all
spells of the polymorph spell chain (including alter self,
polymorph, baleful polymorph, polymorph any object, and
shapechange), as well as to other effects that refer to spells in
the chain (such as the druid’s wild shape class feature).

In general, a change from one form that has a humanoid shape to another form that has a humanoid shape leaves all equipment in place and functioning. The subject's equipment changes to match the assumed form. It becomes the appropriate size for the assumed form and it fits the assumed form. The spellcaster can change minor details in your equipment, such as color, surface texture, and decoration.

So, one source says that equipment such as armor and weapons change its size, and another contradicts. Who is correct :confused:
warok
01-21-06, 02:37 PM edit:

i would just use the lastest faq (yours isn't) ruleing

Can you use polymorph* to turn into a creature with a
template?
No. Polymorph is based on alter self, which clearly states
that "[Y]ou cannot take the form of any creature with a
template, even if that template doesn't change the creature type
or subtype."

What happens to the equipment worn and carried by a
character polymorphed* into another creature capable of
wearing and carrying the same gear? What if the new
creature’s size is different?
Unless stated otherwise, all spells in the polymorph chain
function as described in the alter self spell description, which
states that if the new form is capable of wearing or holding the
item, it remains worn or held; otherwise it melds into the new
form and becomes nonfunctional. A human polymorphed into
another Medium humanoid-shaped form (such as an elf,
grimlock, or bearded devil) can wear or hold all his gear, so it
remains in place.
However, this is one of those times when size definitely
matters, since your gear doesn’t automatically change size as a
result of polymorph. Assuming the new form has appropriate
body locations—for instance, a human polymorphed into a troll
or a pixie—most of your magic items (rings, cloaks, boots, and
other items of magic clothing or jewelry) still fit just fine
regardless of your new size (see “Size and Magic Items” on
page 213 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide).
Nonmagical clothing and accoutrements that don’t fit the
new size meld into the character’s body when he is
polymorphed. (The Sage recommends that DMs err on the side
of leniency when determining what the new form can or can’t
wear.)
Similarly, armor (even magic armor) doesn’t resize to fit
wearers of different sizes. The human described above loses the
benefit of his +1 full plate armor as it melds into his body,
even though the new form is capable of wearing armor.
As long as your new form is capable of holding weapons
(that is, it has hands or other similarly dexterous extremities),
you hold on to whatever weapons you had before the change.
However, since the weapons are no longer of a size appropriate
to you, you take a penalty on attack rolls with them as
described on page 113 of the Player’s Handbook. A human
polymorphed into a troll can still hold his Medium weapons
(although they’re now one size category too small for optimal
use and thus he’ll suffer a –2 penalty on attack rolls). On the
plus side, he can now wield that Medium greatsword with only
one hand, meaning he could pick up a shield or a second
weapon to wield simultaneously.
*The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer to all
spells of the polymorph spell chain (including alter self,
polymorph, baleful polymorph, polymorph any object, and
shapechange), as well as to other effects that refer to spells in
the chain (such as the druid’s wild shape class feature).
Crox
01-21-06, 03:50 PM My FAQ is absolutely up to date. Next your quote is absolutely the same as mine. Well, I prefer to use Sage ruling not Williams, with all respects to the last one. But the question still exists.
Seeker95
01-21-06, 07:00 PM My FAQ is absolutely up to date.If by "absolutely" you mean "in my opinion, to the best of my knowledge" maybe.
But if you mean "definitely, assuredly, without question", then...
Not true. Sorry. Here's the >>link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)<<.
Crox
01-22-06, 10:53 AM <Offtopic> This doesn't matter and chages nothing!!! Look my FAQ is more cool then your FAQ!!! Just look at the date of the FAQ I quotted and yours, up to date, FAQ. Yes they are the same. But files differ. But, again this doesn't matter ... becasue the quotes are the same, and if someone didn't want to make their brains hoter because of extra mental work, I'll explain:

FAQ says (no matter of what version) that armor and weapons don't change their size while polymorphing, while Williams, author of the article about Polymorphing says that they do. So who is right, and whom I may trust, that is the question.

Sorry if I was too rude. No offense was ment.
Seeker95
01-22-06, 02:10 PM FAQ says (no matter of what version) that armor and weapons don't change their size while polymorphing, while Williams, author of the article about Polymorphing says that they do.Skip never says in the Rules of the Game article that your weapons and armor change size. He says your equipment.

So, given a general statement in the article that does not explicitly mention armor and weapons, and an explicit statement in the FAQ, which approach are you going to take?

Do you want to see conflict, andf are trying to read in a way that creates contradiction? Or are you trying to resolve what can be viewed as a contradiction? If the former, then ask your DM or do whatever you want. If the latter, the read one as general and the other as specific. No contradiction.
Deus_Proelii
01-24-06, 12:31 PM Ok... While I'm no fan of Polymorph's current brokenness... I think saying that equipment does not encompass weapons and armour is going a little far. I mean... come on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crox 01-21-06, 02:32 PM	I've found two contradicting definitions on the subject: Can you use polymorph* to turn into a creature with a template? Again, the rules don’t explicitly prevent this—and in fact, some creatures whose forms are possible to assume with shapechange (such as vampires) exist only as templated creatures—but a player who wants to use this option is responsible for providing full statistics for the templated creature to avoid slowing game play. As always, you must still abide by the rules for the spell in question (for example, an elf wizard can’t use alter self to become a half-dragon orc, since that’s a dragon, not a humanoid). The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer to all spells of the polymorph spell chain (including alter self, polymorph, baleful polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange), as well as to other effects that refer to spells in the chain (such as the druid’s wild shape class feature). What happens to the equipment worn and carried by a character polymorphed into another creature capable of wearing and carrying the same gear? What if the new creature’s size is different? Unless stated otherwise, all spells in the polymorph chain function as described in the alter self spell description, which states that if the new form is capable of wearing or holding the item, it remains worn or held; otherwise it melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. A human polymorphed into another Medium humanoid-shaped form (such as an elf, grimlock, or bearded devil) can wear or hold all his gear, so it remains in place. However, this is one of those times when size definitely matters, since your gear doesn’t automatically change size as a result of polymorph. Assuming the new form has appropriate body locations—for instance, a human polymorphed into a troll or a pixie—most of your magic items (rings, cloaks, boots, and other items of magic clothing or jewelry) still fit just fine regardless of your new size (see “Size and Magic Items” on page 213 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide). Nonmagical clothing and accoutrements that don’t fit the new size meld into the character’s body when he is polymorphed. (The Sage recommends that DMs err on the side of leniency when determining what the new form can or can’t wear.) Similarly, armor (even magic armor) doesn’t resize to fit wearers of different sizes. The human described above loses the benefit of his +1 full plate armor as it melds into his body, even though the new form is capable of wearing armor. As long as your new form is capable of holding weapons (that is, it has hands or other similarly dexterous extremities), you hold on to whatever weapons you had before the change. However, since the weapons are no longer of a size appropriate to you, you take a penalty on attack rolls with them as described on page 113 of the Player’s Handbook. A human polymorphed into a troll can still hold his Medium weapons (although they’re now one size category too small for optimal use and thus he’ll suffer a –2 penalty on attack rolls). On the plus side, he can now wield that Medium greatsword with only one hand, meaning he could pick up a shield or a second weapon to wield simultaneously. *The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer to all spells of the polymorph spell chain (including alter self, polymorph, baleful polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange), as well as to other effects that refer to spells in the chain (such as the druid’s wild shape class feature). In general, a change from one form that has a humanoid shape to another form that has a humanoid shape leaves all equipment in place and functioning. The subject's equipment changes to match the assumed form. It becomes the appropriate size for the assumed form and it fits the assumed form. The spellcaster can change minor details in your equipment, such as color, surface texture, and decoration. So, one source says that equipment such as armor and weapons change its size, and another contradicts. Who is correct :confused:
warok 01-21-06, 02:37 PM	edit: i would just use the lastest faq (yours isn't) ruleing Can you use polymorph* to turn into a creature with a template? No. Polymorph is based on alter self, which clearly states that "[Y]ou cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn't change the creature type or subtype." What happens to the equipment worn and carried by a character polymorphed* into another creature capable of wearing and carrying the same gear? What if the new creature’s size is different? Unless stated otherwise, all spells in the polymorph chain function as described in the alter self spell description, which states that if the new form is capable of wearing or holding the item, it remains worn or held; otherwise it melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. A human polymorphed into another Medium humanoid-shaped form (such as an elf, grimlock, or bearded devil) can wear or hold all his gear, so it remains in place. However, this is one of those times when size definitely matters, since your gear doesn’t automatically change size as a result of polymorph. Assuming the new form has appropriate body locations—for instance, a human polymorphed into a troll or a pixie—most of your magic items (rings, cloaks, boots, and other items of magic clothing or jewelry) still fit just fine regardless of your new size (see “Size and Magic Items” on page 213 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide). Nonmagical clothing and accoutrements that don’t fit the new size meld into the character’s body when he is polymorphed. (The Sage recommends that DMs err on the side of leniency when determining what the new form can or can’t wear.) Similarly, armor (even magic armor) doesn’t resize to fit wearers of different sizes. The human described above loses the benefit of his +1 full plate armor as it melds into his body, even though the new form is capable of wearing armor. As long as your new form is capable of holding weapons (that is, it has hands or other similarly dexterous extremities), you hold on to whatever weapons you had before the change. However, since the weapons are no longer of a size appropriate to you, you take a penalty on attack rolls with them as described on page 113 of the Player’s Handbook. A human polymorphed into a troll can still hold his Medium weapons (although they’re now one size category too small for optimal use and thus he’ll suffer a –2 penalty on attack rolls). On the plus side, he can now wield that Medium greatsword with only one hand, meaning he could pick up a shield or a second weapon to wield simultaneously. *The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer to all spells of the polymorph spell chain (including alter self, polymorph, baleful polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange), as well as to other effects that refer to spells in the chain (such as the druid’s wild shape class feature).
Crox 01-21-06, 03:50 PM	My FAQ is absolutely up to date. Next your quote is absolutely the same as mine. Well, I prefer to use Sage ruling not Williams, with all respects to the last one. But the question still exists.
Seeker95 01-21-06, 07:00 PM	My FAQ is absolutely up to date.If by "absolutely" you mean "in my opinion, to the best of my knowledge" maybe. But if you mean "definitely, assuredly, without question", then... Not true. Sorry. Here's the >>link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)<<.
Crox 01-22-06, 10:53 AM	<Offtopic> This doesn't matter and chages nothing!!! Look my FAQ is more cool then your FAQ!!! Just look at the date of the FAQ I quotted and yours, up to date, FAQ. Yes they are the same. But files differ. But, again this doesn't matter ... becasue the quotes are the same, and if someone didn't want to make their brains hoter because of extra mental work, I'll explain: FAQ says (no matter of what version) that armor and weapons don't change their size while polymorphing, while Williams, author of the article about Polymorphing says that they do. So who is right, and whom I may trust, that is the question. Sorry if I was too rude. No offense was ment.
Seeker95 01-22-06, 02:10 PM	FAQ says (no matter of what version) that armor and weapons don't change their size while polymorphing, while Williams, author of the article about Polymorphing says that they do.Skip never says in the Rules of the Game article that your weapons and armor change size. He says your equipment. So, given a general statement in the article that does not explicitly mention armor and weapons, and an explicit statement in the FAQ, which approach are you going to take? Do you want to see conflict, andf are trying to read in a way that creates contradiction? Or are you trying to resolve what can be viewed as a contradiction? If the former, then ask your DM or do whatever you want. If the latter, the read one as general and the other as specific. No contradiction.
Deus_Proelii 01-24-06, 12:31 PM	Ok... While I'm no fan of Polymorph's current brokenness... I think saying that equipment does not encompass weapons and armour is going a little far. I mean... come on.