Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FponkDamn 09-12-07, 03:03 PM	With Arcane Thesis (PHBII) the selected spell, when altered via a metamagic feat, takes up a level one less than normal. Does that mean if you apply a metamagic feat that normally adds no levels to the spell (such as Lord of The Uttercold, etc.) the spell is actually a level LOWER than normal? Can you, for example, use Energy Substitution and Arcane Thesis to make fireball a level 2 spell that does acid damage? And if so, can you still prepare said spell in higher-level slots, giving you many more per day? Thanks! - Johnny
ZiggZagg 09-12-07, 03:10 PM	No. You can't drop a spell below it's normal level
Sunblast 09-12-07, 03:19 PM	I seriously doubt it works that way. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you can't even get away with a silent or stilled spell without using a higher level spell slot. Unfortunately, I don't have that book with me, so I'm really not sure. Sorry. :(
FponkDamn 09-12-07, 03:23 PM	The feat seems to allow you to use a +1 level meta without altering the spell slot. Since the feat only reduces the total level of the spell by 1 (not the cost of metas) you can't stack this up, so you can't just apply 10 different metas that each cost +1 level for free. So that doesn't seem too bad; getting a free silent spell on one spell doesn't seem overpowered. But the other part does. I know the feat shouldn't allow a fireball to be second level, but what I'm really looking for is the rule that says a third level spell can't be in a second level slot, etc. Thanks! - Johnny
jaelis 09-12-07, 05:29 PM	Customer service has addressed this: If you apply a metamagic effect with +0 level adjustment (like Energy Substitution) to a spell for which you have the Arcane Thesis feat, does it lower the spell level below it's normal (unmodified) level? Can you apply an unlimited number of +1 level adjustment metamagic effects without altering the spell level? No, the spell cannot be lowered beyond it's actual level. No you cannot, it only applies to the first metamagic feat applied to the spell.
goawayugh 09-13-07, 01:29 PM	Customer service... *shudders* Although in this case, they may actually know something.
jaelis 09-13-07, 01:33 PM	Actually, I haven't seen a demonstrable screw up in quite a while. (Though it's not like I've been looking closely.)
ravenshrike 09-13-07, 02:36 PM	CustServ is wrong RAW wise. Now, RAI they are probably correct, but there is nothing in the feat itself that says so, unlike the other feats that have similar effects. The way it is written it takes one level off for every metamagic used, but there are explicit rules elsewhere in D&D about higher level spells not being able to be cast under their original level, so that would probably be disallowed. Casting a stilled silent charm person would have it's level unchanged though.
goawayugh 09-13-07, 02:48 PM	Casting a stilled silent charm person would have it's level unchanged though. Nope. If a character with Arcane Thesis (Player’s Handbook II, 74) applies multiple metamagic feats to the chosen spell, is the spell’s slot reduced by one level, or by one level per metamagic feat applied? Arcane Thesis reduces the total spell level of a metamagicaffected spell by one, regardless of the number of metamagic feats applied. An empowered (+2 levels), still (+1 level), silent (+1 level) fireball would be 6th level. Can the Arcane Thesis feat (Player’s Handbook II, 74) reduce a spell’s level below the normal level for the spell? No.
Osedox 09-13-07, 03:36 PM	Yea that feat is a strait-up cluster f@#k. Its broken by RAW and totally pointless by RAI. I have house ruled it this way: -can't reduce a spell below it's original level. -applies to one metamagic feat applied per 6 caster levels. (max 3 @ 18th) Ex. (an 18th level sorcerer with Arcane Thesis: Magic Missile, can cast a Maximized Twinned Empowered Magic Missile as a 7th level slot)