A quick question regarding Keen weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

A quick question regarding Keen weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cli' San Aquanova
10-06-04, 11:25 PM It doubles the threat range of a weapon. Can someone explain this to me?

From what I'm getting: +1 keen longsword- 17-20. Is this correct?

And also, I've seen a +2 keen longsword with a threat range of 15-20 in NPC stats in the FRCS. I take it that for each additional enchantment point, the threat range doubles once more?

I think I'm lost... http://www.geocities.com/flammabledragon/mermanconfused.TXT

-C'SA
:u:Bring Back Merfolk!!!:u:
smrtgmp
10-06-04, 11:43 PM keen doubles the threat range, so a longsword would be 17-20/x2. The FRCS is a 3.0 book. Keen used to stack with the improved critical feet, but it doesnt any more, so you cant have a long sword with a 15-20 crit range anymore. If you check under the NPCs feats, it probably says improved critical (longsword), which would explain the 15-20. The +2 has nothing to do with the keen property, it merely adds to your attack and damage rolls.
Craque
10-06-04, 11:46 PM From what I'm getting: +1 keen longsword- 17-20. Is this correct?

Looks fine.

And also, I've seen a +2 keen longsword with a threat range of 15-20 in NPC stats in the FRCS.

That is not possible, are you sure you didn't see the stats for a +2 keen rapier? A rapier's natural threat range is 18-20 so a keen rapier would have a threat range of 15-20.

I take it that for each additional enchantment point, the threat range doubles once more?

No, keen just doubles the natural threat range of the weapon, it does not depend on the weapon's other enchantments.
smrtgmp
10-07-04, 12:59 AM That is not possible, are you sure you didn't see the stats for a +2 keen rapier? A rapier's natural threat range is 18-20 so a keen rapier would have a threat range of 15-20.
Like I said, the FRCS is a 3.0 book. In 3.0, keen and improved crit stacked, so it was possible to have a crit range of 15-20 with a long sword.
RaspK FOG
10-07-04, 05:50 AM BUT, as proven by both designers and playtesting, it isn't as broken as earlier thought of... Oh well.
smrtgmp
10-07-04, 07:01 AM I dont really concider it to be broken either. It certainly makes more sense from a logical standpoint that the two would stack. One is based on the shapness of the weapon, the other on the skill of the wielder.
Failut
10-07-04, 07:10 AM It only really became broke when you added in the old 3.0 Vorpal rules. But then it got really ugly..
smrtgmp
10-07-04, 07:30 AM seriously. Someone with improved crit dual wielding keen vorpal scimitars was just scary. However, now that Vorpal is natural 20 only, I dont think it would be a big deal to let keen and improved crit stack.
Aramek
10-07-04, 08:18 AM seriously. Someone with improved crit dual wielding keen vorpal scimitars was just scary. However, now that Vorpal is natural 20 only, I dont think it would be a big deal to let keen and improved crit stack.
Which is precisely why I allow it in my campaigns.

Vorpal only works on 20...
...Keen and Imp. Critical Stack.
Cli' San Aquanova
10-07-04, 11:07 AM Okay, y'all cleared it up. Thanks. http://www.geocities.com/flammabledragon/merman.TXT

-C'SA
:u:Bring Back Merfolk!!!:u:
tarkin
10-07-04, 11:21 AM Keen and Improved are not supposed to stack, for a reason.

Vorpal was just the obvious munchkin abuse.

When smart people see an obvious problem, they don't just outlaw it. Instead they examine the problem to see the root cause of it and outlaw all similar things, even if the abuses are not as clear cut.

Say you are starting up a nation and writing it's laws. You realize that if someone steals all of a farmer's food, that would obviously be wrong. Do you pass a law saying that it is illegal to steal all of a person's food, but it is "OK" to only steal 1/2 of it?

The problem is the stacking of the keen/improved Crit, not just with Vorpal. Vorpal just makes the problem so obvious that even a munchkin will eventually admit it is wrong.
meabolex
10-07-04, 11:30 AM Keen and Improved are not supposed to stack, for a reason.
Actually, if you did a study of the weapons, you'd see that there's no reason to take the falchion at all if keen and Improved Critical don't stack.

The original designers in 3.0 did the math and figured it wasn't bad. Vorpal was overly powerful, but by the time you could get vorpal, you could easily have full fortification armor anyway. So they figured vorpal wouldn't be that big of an issue. . .

The 3.5 designers decided to lay down an overall nerf of melee damage in the later levels. This hurts the scythe and falchion because they depend on that extra damage to balance out with the greatsword's early domination. So now, the weapons are unbalanced, the greatsword is superior through the vast majority of the game (falchion and scythe do get better, but only toward the very highest levels), and critical hits were nerfed more even though they didn't need to be.

I like 3.5 rules -- I like most of the balance changes. . . but this is one issue that sticks out in my mind as a bad idea. It was a knee-jerk reaction to something that obviously wasn't a problem.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cli' San Aquanova 10-06-04, 11:25 PM	It doubles the threat range of a weapon. Can someone explain this to me? From what I'm getting: +1 keen longsword- 17-20. Is this correct? And also, I've seen a +2 keen longsword with a threat range of 15-20 in NPC stats in the FRCS. I take it that for each additional enchantment point, the threat range doubles once more? I think I'm lost... http://www.geocities.com/flammabledragon/mermanconfused.TXT -C'SA :u:Bring Back Merfolk!!!:u:
smrtgmp 10-06-04, 11:43 PM	keen doubles the threat range, so a longsword would be 17-20/x2. The FRCS is a 3.0 book. Keen used to stack with the improved critical feet, but it doesnt any more, so you cant have a long sword with a 15-20 crit range anymore. If you check under the NPCs feats, it probably says improved critical (longsword), which would explain the 15-20. The +2 has nothing to do with the keen property, it merely adds to your attack and damage rolls.
Craque 10-06-04, 11:46 PM	From what I'm getting: +1 keen longsword- 17-20. Is this correct? Looks fine. And also, I've seen a +2 keen longsword with a threat range of 15-20 in NPC stats in the FRCS. That is not possible, are you sure you didn't see the stats for a +2 keen rapier? A rapier's natural threat range is 18-20 so a keen rapier would have a threat range of 15-20. I take it that for each additional enchantment point, the threat range doubles once more? No, keen just doubles the natural threat range of the weapon, it does not depend on the weapon's other enchantments.
smrtgmp 10-07-04, 12:59 AM	That is not possible, are you sure you didn't see the stats for a +2 keen rapier? A rapier's natural threat range is 18-20 so a keen rapier would have a threat range of 15-20. Like I said, the FRCS is a 3.0 book. In 3.0, keen and improved crit stacked, so it was possible to have a crit range of 15-20 with a long sword.
RaspK FOG 10-07-04, 05:50 AM	BUT, as proven by both designers and playtesting, it isn't as broken as earlier thought of... Oh well.
smrtgmp 10-07-04, 07:01 AM	I dont really concider it to be broken either. It certainly makes more sense from a logical standpoint that the two would stack. One is based on the shapness of the weapon, the other on the skill of the wielder.
Failut 10-07-04, 07:10 AM	It only really became broke when you added in the old 3.0 Vorpal rules. But then it got really ugly..
smrtgmp 10-07-04, 07:30 AM	seriously. Someone with improved crit dual wielding keen vorpal scimitars was just scary. However, now that Vorpal is natural 20 only, I dont think it would be a big deal to let keen and improved crit stack.
Aramek 10-07-04, 08:18 AM	seriously. Someone with improved crit dual wielding keen vorpal scimitars was just scary. However, now that Vorpal is natural 20 only, I dont think it would be a big deal to let keen and improved crit stack. Which is precisely why I allow it in my campaigns. Vorpal only works on 20... ...Keen and Imp. Critical Stack.
Cli' San Aquanova 10-07-04, 11:07 AM	Okay, y'all cleared it up. Thanks. http://www.geocities.com/flammabledragon/merman.TXT -C'SA :u:Bring Back Merfolk!!!:u:
tarkin 10-07-04, 11:21 AM	Keen and Improved are not supposed to stack, for a reason. Vorpal was just the obvious munchkin abuse. When smart people see an obvious problem, they don't just outlaw it. Instead they examine the problem to see the root cause of it and outlaw all similar things, even if the abuses are not as clear cut. Say you are starting up a nation and writing it's laws. You realize that if someone steals all of a farmer's food, that would obviously be wrong. Do you pass a law saying that it is illegal to steal all of a person's food, but it is "OK" to only steal 1/2 of it? The problem is the stacking of the keen/improved Crit, not just with Vorpal. Vorpal just makes the problem so obvious that even a munchkin will eventually admit it is wrong.
meabolex 10-07-04, 11:30 AM	Keen and Improved are not supposed to stack, for a reason. Actually, if you did a study of the weapons, you'd see that there's no reason to take the falchion at all if keen and Improved Critical don't stack. The original designers in 3.0 did the math and figured it wasn't bad. Vorpal was overly powerful, but by the time you could get vorpal, you could easily have full fortification armor anyway. So they figured vorpal wouldn't be that big of an issue. . . The 3.5 designers decided to lay down an overall nerf of melee damage in the later levels. This hurts the scythe and falchion because they depend on that extra damage to balance out with the greatsword's early domination. So now, the weapons are unbalanced, the greatsword is superior through the vast majority of the game (falchion and scythe do get better, but only toward the very highest levels), and critical hits were nerfed more even though they didn't need to be. I like 3.5 rules -- I like most of the balance changes. . . but this is one issue that sticks out in my mind as a bad idea. It was a knee-jerk reaction to something that obviously wasn't a problem.