A realistic true strike magic item [Archive] - Wizards Community

A realistic true strike magic item [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PeggeyandScott
10-27-03, 09:14 PM Before everyone tries to rip me a new one, I know you cannot have an "always on" true strike...or if you did it would cost 8M gp.

I even did a search over the last several months, and all the threads I could find concerned an "always on" true strike. That is not what I am looking for.

I am looking for something reasonable under the 3.5 rules.

I think it is pretty clear you could create an amulet or maybe gauntlets of true strike that take a standard action to activate and give you +20 to your next attack roll. It would not really be all that expensive or unbalanced:

Spell Level 1 x Caster Level 1 x 1800 gp (command word activated) x 4 (spell whose duration is in rounds) / (5/3 charges per day)

1x1x1800x4/5x3 = 4320 gp

Or a similar item with 50 charges:

1x1x1800x4/2 = 3600 gp.

Granted, the problem with that last one is that you could make a wand of True Strike for 750 gp. I guess the magic item would let anyone use it while a wand is a spell completion item so you would have to be a wizard or sorcerer to use it.

Is an item that gives you the effect of a true strike, activateable as a free action, but not more than once per round with either a limited number of charges or a limited number of uses per day a reasonable item?

I would think if you called it a "use activated" item, but applied the charges per day modifier it could work.

Spell Level 1 x Caster Level 1 x 2000 gp (for use activated) x 4 (for spell whose duration is in rounds) / (5/3) = 1x1x2000x4/5*3

= 4800 gp for a total of three true strike spells per day, activateable as a free action.

I am using the Boots of Speed as a basis...they activate as a free action and give you a Haste spell at a cost of "only" 12000 gp. So theoretically, free action activation is possible and it does not necessarily require the quicken spell feat to get there.
dwarfpaladinmorlock
10-27-03, 09:23 PM I doubt that your DM will allow it. I certainly would not, at least as stated.

If you want it as a free action to activate, the spellcaster who creates it will need to do it with a quickend spell, which means 5th level spell, and 9th level caster.

Option from a very generous DM would be to allow spellcaster to do it with a meta-magic Rod.

If I priced it for my game, I would use the rules where other bonuses superceed the cost rules for first level spells. It is a +20 bonus, so would cost 20*20*2500/5 (for a single use per day) which is 200,000 gold. And that does not even factor in any kind of cost for the quickening.

Give it up. Few experienced DMs will allow this, especially quickened. For an item that requires a standard action to activate, maybe a few, but anyone who gives it out quickend will regret it.
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-27-03, 09:48 PM Not quickened, but the rest is fine.
Seeker95
10-28-03, 09:15 AM As a standard action? Sure.
As a free action? Not in my campaign.
(Psi)SeveredHead
10-28-03, 09:59 AM Is an item that gives you the effect of a true strike, activateable as a free action, but not more than once per round with either a limited number of charges or a limited number of uses per day a reasonable item?

No, no and no. Improved Disarm is strong enough on it's own - I see no reason to make it guaranteed.

Furthermore, I could full attack with Power Attack, putting the True Strike on my last attack and basically take away the disadvantage of using Power Attack.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

As for Boots of Speed, WotC will never get it right. Using it as a basis is just a bad idea. Let's not forget that True Strike is somehow more powerful than Haste ;) True Strike was designed for wizards, not for characters who could actually land a blow in combat and take feats like Power Attack and Improved Disarm.
tarkin
10-28-03, 10:33 AM charged item it fine, including a one use item. In fact they already exist, Potions of True Strike and Wands of True Strike.

But x/day is prone to abuse for REGULAR spells, let alone True Strike. I would not allow it to be used.
Rerednaw
10-28-03, 11:15 AM All other things being equal, whatever one side has so can the other.

For quasi-core implementation of True Strike weapons: there's that bow of true arrows which incorporates True Strike as a use-activated (standard action) - think it is in either sword and fist or tome and blood. Give up a one round to activate, then it only applies to one of your next attacks, I don't really think it is that bad.

As for quickened x/day aka (free action casting) items, I would strongly consider weighing in the options. Because if you open the door to them then all sorts of spells that players would like to have in that format as an item are going to appear. (In 3.0, quickened haste was an irritation to both sides.)

But in the end it is your campaign.

Cheers.
(Psi)SeveredHead
10-28-03, 12:53 PM Originally posted by Rerednaw
All other things being equal, whatever one side has so can the other.

Let's not forget that this is often an admission that something is broken. This is especially true for items - your opponents might have the same feats and even ability scores, but they always get fewer items. And then the players defeat them and take said items.

For quasi-core implementation of True Strike weapons: there's that bow of true arrows which incorporates True Strike as a use-activated (standard action) - think it is in either sword and fist or tome and blood. Give up a one round to activate, then it only applies to one of your next attacks, I don't really think it is that bad.

I think that's fine as long as you keep it away from Peerless Archers and stuff from Sword and Fist that let you Power Attack with a ranged weapon.
ruleslawyer
10-28-03, 01:00 PM I don't see how ranged Power Attack makes the bow of true arrows all that bad. So you're giving up a round of attacks for an expected +10 to damage on one attack? That's hardly unbalanced.
split infinitude
10-28-03, 01:23 PM Well, Power Attack affects all the attacks you make, so you'd activate it (round one), than smackdown (on round two). So, you'd get one great attack, then a bunch of powerful but unliekly t ohit attacks. I don't have that big a problem with power attacking missile weapons, though. Doesn't seem much different than with melee IMO, but others disagree.
spike81101
10-28-03, 03:48 PM A quickened true strike is very very powerful. For example.

Level 4 fighter/6 wizard/10 Ek.

bab +17
Str +8
Weapon +5
Focus+1

Total=+31

Not bad, but our DM had a gods avaitar coming for us. we had 2 minutes to buff.

Limited wish: divine power
Polymorph= Etten
Enlarge
Haste etc

The gods avitar had +55 to attack, I had +55 to attack, but wait! I did a truestrike the round before he got there and did a disarm, quickened true strike and another disarm.

It got me two attack rolls at +75. Even at high levels it was the difference between maybe disarming and and definitely disarming him. A +20 to your roll as a free action is incredible.

I was thinking about trying to make the same item you're referring to. My DM might allow it too. Why? Because it's something I can do anyway. I think he might make it spell completion that way no misc fighter can use it. It depends on your character level I suppose.
Rerednaw
10-28-03, 03:58 PM Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead
Let's not forget that this is often an admission that something is broken. This is especially true for items - your opponents might have the same feats and even ability scores, but they always get fewer items. And then the players defeat them and take said items.

I think that's fine as long as you keep it away from Peerless Archers and stuff from Sword and Fist that let you Power Attack with a ranged weapon.

Is it? I never thought of it that way. I have used that method to find out if something is broken or abusive though.

And if I worry about 'item collecting' I tend to limit items with class/alignment/skill requirements or other factors listed in the DMG so I guess it never really came up.

Try playtesting it and tell your players that if it seems like it is busted (allow both sides to have it) or hurts the flavor of your campaign then say it doesn't work.
(Psi)SeveredHead
10-28-03, 04:57 PM Originally posted by ruleslawyer
I don't see how ranged Power Attack makes the bow of true arrows all that bad. So you're giving up a round of attacks for an expected +10 to damage on one attack? That's hardly unbalanced.

Manyshot is a core feat.

Originally posted by Rerednaw
Try playtesting it and tell your players that if it seems like it is busted (allow both sides to have it) or hurts the flavor of your campaign then say it doesn't work.

See Spike's post above.

I objected to "give it to the NPCs" because it was a justification used for Harm 3.0. It was broken, and if the DM used it the spell became part of a cold war. It was either used all the time, or it was never used (the latter meaning the DM and players have tacitly admitted it was broken).
PeggeyandScott
10-28-03, 06:46 PM Thanks for the feedback. I'll probably just make a wand of true strike and use it for either VERY high AC opponents (where wasting a round of attacks to get a sure-fire hit the next round makes sense) and surprise rounds.
Seeker95
10-28-03, 07:21 PM Remember... to use a wand of true strike you must be a wizard or sorcerer, and can only cast it on yourself. If you are a wizard or sorcerer in combat with someone of high enough level to have a superb AC, you are probably better off doing something besides attacking it with a weapon in a process that takes two rounds.

Heck, two rounds of magic missile would be better than any one weapon attack from an arcane spellcaster.
Heron_Marked_Blade
10-28-03, 07:29 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
Heck, two rounds of magic missile would be better than any one weapon attack from an arcane spellcaster.

Agreed. Better than to swing a weapon would be to True Strike your "<insert powerful ranged touch attack spell here>" spell so your chances of missing are slim. This is probably your best use of a Wand of True Strike.
spike81101
10-28-03, 08:44 PM Also don't forget true strike negates concealment. :)
(Psi)SeveredHead
10-28-03, 09:08 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
Remember... to use a wand of true strike you must be a wizard or sorcerer, and can only cast it on yourself. If you are a wizard or sorcerer in combat with someone of high enough level to have a superb AC, you are probably better off doing something besides attacking it with a weapon in a process that takes two rounds.

Heck, two rounds of magic missile would be better than any one weapon attack from an arcane spellcaster.

The problem wasn't a wizard swinging in combat though - with his probable low Strength, low attack bonus, and likelihood of not having Improved Disarm, Manyshot or Power Attack he wasn't exactly scary - the problem was a Ftrx/Wiz1 combo with the wand, or worse a Staff of Quickened True Strike (what a bargain).
Rerednaw
10-28-03, 10:00 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
Remember... to use a wand of true strike you must be a wizard or sorcerer, and can only cast it on yourself. If you are a wizard or sorcerer in combat with someone of high enough level to have a superb AC, you are probably better off doing something besides attacking it with a weapon in a process that takes two rounds.

Heck, two rounds of magic missile would be better than any one weapon attack from an arcane spellcaster.

Um, well...

Invisible rogue uses it just before his single and devastating sneak attack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PeggeyandScott 10-27-03, 09:14 PM	Before everyone tries to rip me a new one, I know you cannot have an "always on" true strike...or if you did it would cost 8M gp. I even did a search over the last several months, and all the threads I could find concerned an "always on" true strike. That is not what I am looking for. I am looking for something reasonable under the 3.5 rules. I think it is pretty clear you could create an amulet or maybe gauntlets of true strike that take a standard action to activate and give you +20 to your next attack roll. It would not really be all that expensive or unbalanced: Spell Level 1 x Caster Level 1 x 1800 gp (command word activated) x 4 (spell whose duration is in rounds) / (5/3 charges per day) 1x1x1800x4/5x3 = 4320 gp Or a similar item with 50 charges: 1x1x1800x4/2 = 3600 gp. Granted, the problem with that last one is that you could make a wand of True Strike for 750 gp. I guess the magic item would let anyone use it while a wand is a spell completion item so you would have to be a wizard or sorcerer to use it. Is an item that gives you the effect of a true strike, activateable as a free action, but not more than once per round with either a limited number of charges or a limited number of uses per day a reasonable item? I would think if you called it a "use activated" item, but applied the charges per day modifier it could work. Spell Level 1 x Caster Level 1 x 2000 gp (for use activated) x 4 (for spell whose duration is in rounds) / (5/3) = 1x1x2000x4/5*3 = 4800 gp for a total of three true strike spells per day, activateable as a free action. I am using the Boots of Speed as a basis...they activate as a free action and give you a Haste spell at a cost of "only" 12000 gp. So theoretically, free action activation is possible and it does not necessarily require the quicken spell feat to get there.
dwarfpaladinmorlock 10-27-03, 09:23 PM	I doubt that your DM will allow it. I certainly would not, at least as stated. If you want it as a free action to activate, the spellcaster who creates it will need to do it with a quickend spell, which means 5th level spell, and 9th level caster. Option from a very generous DM would be to allow spellcaster to do it with a meta-magic Rod. If I priced it for my game, I would use the rules where other bonuses superceed the cost rules for first level spells. It is a +20 bonus, so would cost 20202500/5 (for a single use per day) which is 200,000 gold. And that does not even factor in any kind of cost for the quickening. Give it up. Few experienced DMs will allow this, especially quickened. For an item that requires a standard action to activate, maybe a few, but anyone who gives it out quickend will regret it.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-27-03, 09:48 PM	Not quickened, but the rest is fine.
Seeker95 10-28-03, 09:15 AM	As a standard action? Sure. As a free action? Not in my campaign.
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-28-03, 09:59 AM	Is an item that gives you the effect of a true strike, activateable as a free action, but not more than once per round with either a limited number of charges or a limited number of uses per day a reasonable item? No, no and no. Improved Disarm is strong enough on it's own - I see no reason to make it guaranteed. Furthermore, I could full attack with Power Attack, putting the True Strike on my last attack and basically take away the disadvantage of using Power Attack. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point. As for Boots of Speed, WotC will never get it right. Using it as a basis is just a bad idea. Let's not forget that True Strike is somehow more powerful than Haste ;) True Strike was designed for wizards, not for characters who could actually land a blow in combat and take feats like Power Attack and Improved Disarm.
tarkin 10-28-03, 10:33 AM	charged item it fine, including a one use item. In fact they already exist, Potions of True Strike and Wands of True Strike. But x/day is prone to abuse for REGULAR spells, let alone True Strike. I would not allow it to be used.
Rerednaw 10-28-03, 11:15 AM	All other things being equal, whatever one side has so can the other. For quasi-core implementation of True Strike weapons: there's that bow of true arrows which incorporates True Strike as a use-activated (standard action) - think it is in either sword and fist or tome and blood. Give up a one round to activate, then it only applies to one of your next attacks, I don't really think it is that bad. As for quickened x/day aka (free action casting) items, I would strongly consider weighing in the options. Because if you open the door to them then all sorts of spells that players would like to have in that format as an item are going to appear. (In 3.0, quickened haste was an irritation to both sides.) But in the end it is your campaign. Cheers.
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-28-03, 12:53 PM	Originally posted by Rerednaw All other things being equal, whatever one side has so can the other. Let's not forget that this is often an admission that something is broken. This is especially true for items - your opponents might have the same feats and even ability scores, but they always get fewer items. And then the players defeat them and take said items. For quasi-core implementation of True Strike weapons: there's that bow of true arrows which incorporates True Strike as a use-activated (standard action) - think it is in either sword and fist or tome and blood. Give up a one round to activate, then it only applies to one of your next attacks, I don't really think it is that bad. I think that's fine as long as you keep it away from Peerless Archers and stuff from Sword and Fist that let you Power Attack with a ranged weapon.
ruleslawyer 10-28-03, 01:00 PM	I don't see how ranged Power Attack makes the bow of true arrows all that bad. So you're giving up a round of attacks for an expected +10 to damage on one attack? That's hardly unbalanced.
split infinitude 10-28-03, 01:23 PM	Well, Power Attack affects all the attacks you make, so you'd activate it (round one), than smackdown (on round two). So, you'd get one great attack, then a bunch of powerful but unliekly t ohit attacks. I don't have that big a problem with power attacking missile weapons, though. Doesn't seem much different than with melee IMO, but others disagree.
spike81101 10-28-03, 03:48 PM	A quickened true strike is very very powerful. For example. Level 4 fighter/6 wizard/10 Ek. bab +17 Str +8 Weapon +5 Focus+1 Total=+31 Not bad, but our DM had a gods avaitar coming for us. we had 2 minutes to buff. Limited wish: divine power Polymorph= Etten Enlarge Haste etc The gods avitar had +55 to attack, I had +55 to attack, but wait! I did a truestrike the round before he got there and did a disarm, quickened true strike and another disarm. It got me two attack rolls at +75. Even at high levels it was the difference between maybe disarming and and definitely disarming him. A +20 to your roll as a free action is incredible. I was thinking about trying to make the same item you're referring to. My DM might allow it too. Why? Because it's something I can do anyway. I think he might make it spell completion that way no misc fighter can use it. It depends on your character level I suppose.
Rerednaw 10-28-03, 03:58 PM	Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead Let's not forget that this is often an admission that something is broken. This is especially true for items - your opponents might have the same feats and even ability scores, but they always get fewer items. And then the players defeat them and take said items. I think that's fine as long as you keep it away from Peerless Archers and stuff from Sword and Fist that let you Power Attack with a ranged weapon. Is it? I never thought of it that way. I have used that method to find out if something is broken or abusive though. And if I worry about 'item collecting' I tend to limit items with class/alignment/skill requirements or other factors listed in the DMG so I guess it never really came up. Try playtesting it and tell your players that if it seems like it is busted (allow both sides to have it) or hurts the flavor of your campaign then say it doesn't work.
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-28-03, 04:57 PM	Originally posted by ruleslawyer I don't see how ranged Power Attack makes the bow of true arrows all that bad. So you're giving up a round of attacks for an expected +10 to damage on one attack? That's hardly unbalanced. Manyshot is a core feat. Originally posted by Rerednaw Try playtesting it and tell your players that if it seems like it is busted (allow both sides to have it) or hurts the flavor of your campaign then say it doesn't work. See Spike's post above. I objected to "give it to the NPCs" because it was a justification used for Harm 3.0. It was broken, and if the DM used it the spell became part of a cold war. It was either used all the time, or it was never used (the latter meaning the DM and players have tacitly admitted it was broken).
PeggeyandScott 10-28-03, 06:46 PM	Thanks for the feedback. I'll probably just make a wand of true strike and use it for either VERY high AC opponents (where wasting a round of attacks to get a sure-fire hit the next round makes sense) and surprise rounds.
Seeker95 10-28-03, 07:21 PM	Remember... to use a wand of true strike you must be a wizard or sorcerer, and can only cast it on yourself. If you are a wizard or sorcerer in combat with someone of high enough level to have a superb AC, you are probably better off doing something besides attacking it with a weapon in a process that takes two rounds. Heck, two rounds of magic missile would be better than any one weapon attack from an arcane spellcaster.
Heron_Marked_Blade 10-28-03, 07:29 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Heck, two rounds of magic missile would be better than any one weapon attack from an arcane spellcaster. Agreed. Better than to swing a weapon would be to True Strike your "<insert powerful ranged touch attack spell here>" spell so your chances of missing are slim. This is probably your best use of a Wand of True Strike.
spike81101 10-28-03, 08:44 PM	Also don't forget true strike negates concealment. :)
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-28-03, 09:08 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Remember... to use a wand of true strike you must be a wizard or sorcerer, and can only cast it on yourself. If you are a wizard or sorcerer in combat with someone of high enough level to have a superb AC, you are probably better off doing something besides attacking it with a weapon in a process that takes two rounds. Heck, two rounds of magic missile would be better than any one weapon attack from an arcane spellcaster. The problem wasn't a wizard swinging in combat though - with his probable low Strength, low attack bonus, and likelihood of not having Improved Disarm, Manyshot or Power Attack he wasn't exactly scary - the problem was a Ftrx/Wiz1 combo with the wand, or worse a Staff of Quickened True Strike (what a bargain).
Rerednaw 10-28-03, 10:00 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Remember... to use a wand of true strike you must be a wizard or sorcerer, and can only cast it on yourself. If you are a wizard or sorcerer in combat with someone of high enough level to have a superb AC, you are probably better off doing something besides attacking it with a weapon in a process that takes two rounds. Heck, two rounds of magic missile would be better than any one weapon attack from an arcane spellcaster. Um, well... Invisible rogue uses it just before his single and devastating sneak attack.