Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quirriff 06-14-05, 10:37 AM	The Life of the caster, The caster may never live again after they cast this spell. What do you guys think?
tarkin 06-14-05, 11:02 AM	And how many times do you think the Liches will be casting this spell?
Quirriff 06-14-05, 11:08 AM	Liches wont cast this spell because once they have cast it, they can't come back, Period, even as a Lich. The Soul/Spirit of the Person goes and does something Great (and I mean the dictionary version of great), And when they do it it's usually something purely according to their allignment, No personal stuff whatsoever. It could destroy the Tarrasque and restore the land it devoured (not the people).
Zherog 06-14-05, 11:10 AM	I think you missed Tarkin's point. The caster may never live again after they cast this spell. Liches ceased to live the moment they became a lich, and therefore have nothing to lose the way this is worded.
Quirriff 06-14-05, 11:16 AM	I think you missed Tarkin's point. Liches ceased to live the moment they became a lich, and therefore have nothing to lose the way this is worded. Well if we are getting the the wording, If you want to get technical It costs 100% of the users XP and evaporates their body.
Zherog 06-14-05, 11:20 AM	And, in theory, that still wouldn't destroy a lich - as long as it's phylactory remained in tact.
Drachasor 06-14-05, 11:20 AM	I think such a spell could certainly be more powerful than many Epic spells. You would need to watch the wording carefully of course and make sure it applied to undead, construct, and all other non-objects. Perhaps if it destroyed the subject's mind forever without any hope of retrieval. Or you could have it drain 16 or 19 levels permanently from the caster. Dropping 20 levels like that would be a pain, and have it drain extra constitution if you don't have enough levels to drain (remember you have to have at least 1 hit die). That is a pretty big hit too. Just don't call it level draining per se, and say it affects the caster no matter what protections or immunities to level drain they might possess, and if they somehow avoid the level drain then the spell fails. Something similar with death would work just as well. -Drachasor
tarkin 06-14-05, 11:23 AM	The wording would probably have to be: This spell distingrates the body, magic, and spirit/soul of the creature that casts it.
Quirriff 06-14-05, 11:31 AM	And, in theory, that still wouldn't destroy a lich - as long as it's phylactory remained in tact. It would no longer have the levels required to be a lich, and thus would die, forever I think such a spell could certainly be more powerful than many Epic spells. You would need to watch the wording carefully of course and make sure it applied to undead, construct, and all other non-objects. Perhaps if it destroyed the subject's mind forever without any hope of retrieval. That's what I was meaning yes, Utterly impossible, It utterly drains the mind of the caster (with no hope of retreiving it). Or you could have it drain 16 or 19 levels permanently from the caster. Dropping 20 levels like that would be a pain, and have it drain extra constitution if you don't have enough levels to drain (remember you have to have at least 1 hit die). That is a pretty big hit too. Just don't call it level draining per se, and say it affects the caster no matter what protections or immunities to level drain they might possess, and if they somehow avoid the level drain then the spell fails. Something similar with death would work just as well. I see your point, something simular to death would work just as well. But the whole point of this spell is a Super powered Wish/Miracle that was a Sacrifice and a grand one at that.
runestar 06-14-05, 11:33 AM	How powerful would you have the spell be? The kind where you wish: "I wish everyone on this world would just die" and poof, the world becomes unpopulated? I think it would work well as a plot hook or some sort of doomsday device, but not as a regular spell to be cast. The best way to gauge a spell's power is to ask yourself: Can I stand this spell being cast at my party at a regular rate? If no, then scrap it. Can you stand every mage you meet memorising this spell as a last resort and quickening it when he is on the verge on death? When you say "never live again", what do you mean? Even wish+true ressurection can't bring him back? SO a mage can't combo this with contingent recall and resurrection?
Drachasor 06-14-05, 11:34 AM	And, in theory, that still wouldn't destroy a lich - as long as it's phylactory remained in tact. Here's some text one could insert that would take care of such things: "When this spell is cast and takes effect, the caster immediately is destroyed, and not one spec of the caster's body remains. If the caster has any means of preventing or recovering from the destruction (magical or mundane) then those means are also destroyed. Nothing can stop this destruction of the caster. The caster's soul, mind, and body are used to power the spell, and, are completely expended at the end of the casting. Not even a deity can recover the character, and any protection from the negative effects of the spell cause it to fail. At the DM's discretion, some small part of the caster's psyche/will may survive in the area of effect, exerting very small amounts of influence in line with the spell and the caster's former personality. This tiny portion of the caster can never be recovered or altered though (not even by a deity), and any attempt to do so either fails or destroys it. There is just too little left. This effect, if it happens, usually fades in time." I recommend a casting time of 10 minutes, with a proviso that it cannot be shortened by any means. Of course certain global effects (like trying to kill everyone) probably wouldn't work, or wouldn't work as well as the caster would have liked. Easy saves perhaps (DC 1), so only 5% of the population dies. Anyhow, some guidelines like wish are probably appropriate. Let's suppose it is 100 times more powerful....I'll finish this in the next post -Drachasor
Drachasor 06-14-05, 11:49 AM	LAST WISH A Last Wish can produce any 100 of the following effects (in any combination): • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. • Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school. • Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school. • Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity. • Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value. • Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. • Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies. • Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead. • Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level. • Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. • Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a roll made within the last day to change to a desired result. Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. This requires 10 of the 100 uses. An extra use can get rid of a spell resistance check of one target. Extra uses can also be used to increase the DC of a single target's save by 5 each. You may try to use a Last Wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells, typically. Trying to do more than the spell ordinarily allows can modify this). Special Component: Caster's Very Existence: When this spell is cast and takes effect, the caster immediately is destroyed, and not one spec of the caster's body remains. If the caster has any means of preventing or recovering from the destruction (magical or mundane) then those means are also destroyed. Nothing can stop this destruction of the caster. The caster's soul, mind, and body are used to power the spell, and, are completely expended at the end of the casting. Not even a deity can recover the character, and any protection from the negative effects of the spell cause it to fail. Creatures or beings without a soul, such as a Simulacrum, cannot cast this spell. This spell also cannot be cast unless the caster is free of enchantments and other mental influences as far as deciding to sacrifice himself (e.g. a dominated creature cannot cast this spell). At the DM's discretion, some small part of the caster's psyche/will may survive in the area of effect, exerting very small amounts of influence in line with the spell and the caster's former personality. This tiny portion of the caster can never be recovered or altered though (not even by a deity), and any attempt to do so either fails or destroys it. There is just too little left. This effect, if it happens, usually fades in time. That's a rough draft anyhow. I suppose I could tone it down to 20 wishes or something, but is 100 all that bad? It might be enough to get rid of an army, I suppose, but I don't think many casters would be willing to use it as it precludes any afterlife. Perhaps there should be some sort of situational requirement that limits its use further? -Drachasor
Quirriff 06-14-05, 11:54 AM	Here's some text one could insert that would take care of such things: "When this spell is cast and takes effect, the caster immediately is destroyed, and not one spec of the caster's body remains. If the caster has any means of preventing or recovering from the destruction (magical or mundane) then those means are also destroyed. Nothing can stop this destruction of the caster. The caster's soul, mind, and body are used to power the spell, and, are completely expended at the end of the casting. Not even a deity can recover the character, and any protection from the negative effects of the spell cause it to fail. At the DM's discretion, some small part of the caster's psyche/will may survive in the area of effect, exerting very small amounts of influence in line with the spell and the caster's former personality. This tiny portion of the caster can never be recovered or altered though (not even by a deity), and any attempt to do so either fails or destroys it. There is just too little left. This effect, if it happens, usually fades in time." I recommend a casting time of 10 minutes, with a proviso that it cannot be shortened by any means. Of course certain global effects (like trying to kill everyone) probably wouldn't work, or wouldn't work as well as the caster would have liked. Easy saves perhaps (DC 1), so only 5% of the population dies. Anyhow, some guidelines like wish are probably appropriate. Let's suppose it is 100 times more powerful....I'll finish this in the next post -Drachasor I like your text there, I think i'll insert the lot of that there. How powerful would you have the spell be? The kind where you wish: "I wish everyone on this world would just die" and poof, the world becomes unpopulated? I think it would work well as a plot hook or some sort of doomsday device, but not as a regular spell to be cast. The primary limitation is that it must be for a cause that is true to the persons alignment, but nothing personal must be about it. So if a Maniac wished to blow up the entire world because he hates it, well the maniac would die but nothing would happen because that is based on the characters personality not his allignment (even if he is evil). I'll need wording for that.
ehrin 06-14-05, 06:00 PM	true to alignment/cause, but not personality? Not sure i can always separate those, but I would not allow such a spell in my world. a chaotic evil being, powerful enough, could destroy the world at the small cost of his life? Especially as he is dieing from some other cause? Way too many idiots out there want to take everyone else with them when they go.. no need to give them a spell to do it.
runestar 06-14-05, 11:08 PM	A CE madman would have no qualms about using the spell to blow up the whole world, and it would work, as it is fitting with his alignment.
Quirriff 06-15-05, 12:30 AM	Perhaps I should give this spell a [Good] Descriptor to forbid that sort of thing. Because it has to be a sacrifice that means something to them.
Janusunaj 06-15-05, 02:09 AM	In the Book of Vile Darkness they had curses that we're as powerful as several wishes. Simply have Last wish be as powerful as many wishes. I think that six would be a proper number.
Derren S. 06-15-05, 02:21 AM	Easily abusable with a Simulacrum. And as your existence isn't a costly component, you can use Eshew Material on the spell.
Odin_666 06-15-05, 02:34 AM	Perhaps I should give this spell a [Good] Descriptor to forbid that sort of thing. Because it has to be a sacrifice that means something to them. But this would only prevend CE-clerics from casting it, arcane casters don't care about the Descriptors...
runestar 06-15-05, 02:39 AM	In the very same vein, a LG sorceror who is aware of a demonic invasion led by say, demogorgon himself could use said spell and wish: I wish that demogorgon and all the invaders were no more. He would be sacrificing himself to save our world as we know it. But first, could we agree on the limits of this spell's power first? Or are its boundaries limited only by our creativity and munchkinness?
Drachasor 06-15-05, 03:00 AM	Easily abusable with a Simulacrum. And as your existence isn't a costly component, you can use Eshew Material on the spell. You realize you'd need a level 34 spellcaster to simulacrum, right? And the "your existence isn't a costly component" silliness is already countered in the text that saying if you find some way to avoid paying the cost then the spell fails: Nothing can stop this destruction of the caster. The caster's soul, mind, and body are used to power the spell, and, are completely expended at the end of the casting. Not even a deity can recover the character, and any protection from the negative effects of the spell cause it to fail. Anyhow, I'll edit it to take out "material component" and just have "special component" or some such. Another line stating that conjured or fabricated beings without souls such as Simulacrums can't cast the spell would handle your other concern. Do you have any worries that aren't easily resolved? -Drachasor
Derren S. 06-15-05, 04:31 AM	You realize you'd need a level 34 spellcaster to simulacrum, right? When creating such high powered spells, you also have to take epic level characters into account. And the "your existence isn't a costly component" silliness is already countered in the text that saying if you find some way to avoid paying the cost then the spell fails: That is bad mechanic. Anyhow, I'll edit it to take out "material component" and just have "special component" or some such. Another line stating that conjured or fabricated beings without souls such as Simulacrums can't cast the spell would handle your other concern. Do you have any worries that aren't easily resolved? Thats better. But what about creatures who don't need any components to cast spells like dragons or creatures who get this spell as SPA? Also this spell is still very abusable. Just wish for a couple of scrolls or a staff of this spell ( A 1/week use activated item also works very well) then dominate some low level caster to cast this spell for you. Because the spell has no XP cost, wishing for a scroll/staff/use activated item of this spell is cheap compared to the gain.
runestar 06-15-05, 06:51 AM	Well, we will have to word the spell such that the sacrifice is not treated as some sort of component, but rather, some sort of backlash damage so that it cannot be prevented.
RaspK FOG 06-15-05, 07:09 AM	Have I ever mentioned how much I hate the concept of useless things freely available and too powerful things that come at too great a cost? This would be the most powerful epic spell available, if you ask me, and it should utterly destroy a creature a-la a Sphere of Annihilation.
DragonsArt 06-15-05, 07:50 AM	Ubber Wish Transformation (Munchkin) Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, M, F Casting Time: 1 swift action Range: Special Effect: Special Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No By giving up his body and soul in all forms, the caster may do anything he wishes. Examples include: destroying a great beast, creating a major artifact, destroying a planet, creating a planet, creating a new race, destroying all worlds/planes or all of the above. Material component: DM's Intelligence. The caster must convince the DM to willingly give up all form of intelligence in order to cast this spell. Afterward, the DM becomes a puppet under the control of the caster.
CaoSlayer 06-15-05, 09:14 AM	ah, for preventing magical items and such, add that creating a magical item, ever a scroll of the spell, will require the destruction of the creator. and the one who triggers it, will die too.
Zherog 06-15-05, 10:36 AM	Transformation (Munchkin) ... Material component: DM's Intelligence. The caster must convince the DM to willingly give up all form of intelligence in order to cast this spell. Afterward, the DM becomes a puppet under the control of the caster. :rofl:
Derren S. 06-15-05, 12:11 PM	ah, for preventing magical items and such, add that creating a magical item, ever a scroll of the spell, will require the destruction of the creator. and the one who triggers it, will die too. That only requires a domination more then otherwise. Create a scroll of wish, dominate a caster, let him wish for a scroll (or better use activated item) of Last Wish, search a new victim and dominate him into using the item.
DragonsArt 06-15-05, 12:19 PM	That only requires a domination more then otherwise. Create a scroll of wish, dominate a caster, let him wish for a scroll (or better use activated item) of Last Wish, search a new victim and dominate him into using the item. Not using my version... Ubber Wish Transformation (Munchkin) Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, M, F Casting Time: 1 swift action Range: Special Effect: Special Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No By giving up his body and soul in all forms, the caster may do anything he wishes. Examples include: destroying a great beast, creating a major artifact, destroying a planet, creating a planet, creating a new race, destroying all worlds/planes or all of the above. Material component: DM's Intelligence. The caster must convince the DM to willingly give up all form of intelligence in order to cast this spell. Afterward, the DM becomes a puppet under the control of the caster. Once the DM gives up intelligence to allow the player's character to cast this spell, he would no longer be able to be used to provide the material component... you'd have to get another willing dope...er... DM...
RaspK FOG 06-15-05, 01:02 PM	:rofl: Very much indeed! :D
Derren S. 06-15-05, 01:19 PM	Not using my version... Is the DMs intelligence a costly component?
Zherog 06-15-05, 01:25 PM	Is the DMs intelligence a costly component? Depends on the DM. ;)
runestar 06-15-05, 09:31 PM	Is the DMs intelligence a costly component? Doesn't matter, turning it into a SLA or supernatural ability allows you to eschew it all the same.
Titan W 06-15-05, 10:16 PM	I actually like this spell... it's an interesting idea. I would say that some simple reasoning could solve the abbove problems, one, "This spell cannot be cast from an item, due to the fact that it draws so much power fom the caster taht any item holding this spell would be destroyed by the sheer power of the energy before the spell could complete being stored or bound to the item." as for the "Munkininess" The effects are completely up to DM discression, and for the cost I would say that any CE character would be too selfish to make the sacrifice, however a LE or NE would present problems, they would be the ones to see that giving thier life to foreward a greater goal would be an acceptable cost. To fix this I would simply state in the spell that it must assist more beings than it would harm." Destroying a world usually helps no one and almost always harms trillions of creatures, destroying a demon army 100,000 strong that is going to destroy a large city would save more than it would destroy