A Spell to enable Sneak Attack vs Undead? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Spell to enable Sneak Attack vs Undead? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zitchas
04-22-06, 03:00 PM I've been told that it exists, but I'm having trouble finding it. Does this ring a bell with anyone here?
beezly
04-22-06, 03:15 PM Grave strike. V. Component only. Clr 1 spell. I think it's in CAdv or CDiv
Zitchas
04-22-06, 03:49 PM Ah, yes. Thanks. I just found it myself.

Unfortunatly, it's a divine spell. Anyone know of any on the arcane side of things?

For that matter, does anyone see anything unbalancing with making it a Wiz/Sor 1 as well? (For refference, it's currently a Clr/Pld 1 Divination spell)

Of course, the spell description really makes it sound like evocation, not divination. It's energizing, not detecting. But oh well. WOTC doesn't like to follow their own descriptions, I guess.
Seeker95
04-22-06, 05:28 PM For that matter, does anyone see anything unbalancing with making it a Wiz/Sor 1 as well?I find it unbalanced to have it at all. A sneak attack is similar to a critical strike:
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

Undead do not have vital spots. It should not be a spell at all -- neither arcane nor divine.
hottchixplaydndtoo
04-22-06, 05:36 PM Why would you want the spell when you could have the feat? I have the feat with one of my high level rogues.... it does not do full damage it does d4's instead of d6's but is still helpful and you dont have to bother with casting a spell. :bounce:
Pegasos989
04-22-06, 06:00 PM Undead do not have vital spots. It should not be a spell at all -- neither arcane nor divine.

Hey, why would they not have vital spots? Have you seen Night/Dawn/Day of the living dead -movies? In those you can kill zombies by hitting their brains, so I see no problem with rogue shooting at the brains with sneak attack. Also the vampires can be staked so, for example, rogue trying to scratch the heart with a crossbow could be allowed by DM if he thinks it would work. However this makes rogues much more efficient than meant, so there must be something to avoid this.

A feat, a spell or similar thing doesn't sound too unlogical to me.

I could allow it as a feat if rogue would take enough knowledge ranks in religion or similar to know stuff about undead.
Seeker95
04-22-06, 08:27 PM Hey, why would they not have vital spots? Have you seen Night/Dawn/Day of the living dead -movies? In those you can kill zombies by hitting their brains, so I see no problem with rogue shooting at the brains with sneak attack.I've seen the movies. I've also seen plenty of other movies that have a tangential relationship to fantasy fiction. But we are playing a game called Dungeons & Dragons, not B-Movie Horror d20 RPG. You can't critical undead creatures. You can't sneak attack undead creatures.
ClementWillowbreaker
04-22-06, 08:42 PM You also can't will 20ft radius balls of fire into existence either. There is a reason it is called Magic.

On the arcane side, you get the parallel spell to SA constructs. It's a tradeoff. Or in the case of a UMDing rogue, an advantage.
KirkBb
04-22-06, 08:48 PM Why would you want the spell when you could have the feat? I have the feat with one of my high level rogues.... it does not do full damage it does d4's instead of d6's but is still helpful and you dont have to bother with casting a spell. :bounce:
Where is this feat located? A rogue in my group is feeling left out because of all the undead and constructs I keep throwing at them (I don't think they have fought a living foe in like 2 lvls, and probably won't for a while) It would really help out.
ClementWillowbreaker
04-22-06, 08:52 PM The easier thing to do would be to mix in more living creatures, and stop being a jerk to the rogue. Either that, or make sure his non-combat role is given time to shine. 30 encounters without a SA isn't a game to a rogue, it's torture, worse than telling the Barbarian's player that the game will consist of tense negociations between planar factions with Permanent Sanctuary effects.
Engilbrand
04-23-06, 12:27 AM The classes are balanced on the ideas that they get to use their abilities. Though rogues are skill-monkies, it sounds like you're using combat encounters. The rogue is now worth LESS than the other characters. It is unfair to him as a player, especially if you've been through 2 levels like this. I know I'd be ******. "What? Skeletons again? Let me pull out my worthless weapon and deal 4 damage. Woohoo. 3d6 down the drain."
Vaelan
04-23-06, 12:41 AM Undead do not have vital spots. It should not be a spell at all -- neither arcane nor divine.
Have you read the given justification for the spell? It doesn't seem like it, which makes your objections seem rather meaningless.
runestar
04-23-06, 01:14 AM Undead do not have vital spots. It should not be a spell at all -- neither arcane nor divine.
That's why they lumped all the stuff that does not make logical sense into 1 category termed magic. ;)
Zitchas
04-23-06, 02:16 AM A sneak attack is a bit more than simply poking at a particularly vulnerable spot, it's knowing how to make an attack in just the right way to do the most possible damage. It's a bit trickier, since you have to do it just right (thus it requiring the sneaking part), but very effective.

In that line of sight, I consider undead to be creatures that, since they are dead, have almost no vulnerable spots, probably none, really, in the traditional sense. Hence the requirement of a feat or spell (I'd be highly intrested to know where that feat is, too. I thought there was one, but I haven't been able to find it yet. Actually, I thought it was a feat before it was a spell). From what I can tell of the spell, it's essentially sheathing your weapon in positive energy, enabling it to essentially damage the negative energy arcane construct that keeps the undead moving/"alive"/etc at the same time as it's cutting the flesh. Whereas a simple sword thrust would just damage it a bit (and a normal sneak attack wouldn't work since there's nothing there particularly vulnerable) a positive energy sneak attack would instead be hitting some of the "inner" workings of the undead. It's just on a more spiritual plane than normal, thus the feat/spell requirement.

I really don't consider a feat that de-uselessizes a core class ability to be useless. The spell doesn't let a rogue sneak attack everything, just undead. In a way, it's a possibility to let them take a meaningfull part in the campaign instead of getting to spend that particular session stuck at the back acting as a low-power meatsshield for the spellcasters.
Blazenblue
04-23-06, 08:51 AM I allow my Arcane Trickster to use Disrupt undead as a sneak attack on undead, he only has a few chances to do so a Day so he makes them count. Crypts are horrible for theives; the doors are stone without locks so the barbarian does the 'Lock picking', the enemies are not sneakable and scouting ahead only ever results in a facefull of negative levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zitchas 04-22-06, 03:00 PM	I've been told that it exists, but I'm having trouble finding it. Does this ring a bell with anyone here?
beezly 04-22-06, 03:15 PM	Grave strike. V. Component only. Clr 1 spell. I think it's in CAdv or CDiv
Zitchas 04-22-06, 03:49 PM	Ah, yes. Thanks. I just found it myself. Unfortunatly, it's a divine spell. Anyone know of any on the arcane side of things? For that matter, does anyone see anything unbalancing with making it a Wiz/Sor 1 as well? (For refference, it's currently a Clr/Pld 1 Divination spell) Of course, the spell description really makes it sound like evocation, not divination. It's energizing, not detecting. But oh well. WOTC doesn't like to follow their own descriptions, I guess.
Seeker95 04-22-06, 05:28 PM	For that matter, does anyone see anything unbalancing with making it a Wiz/Sor 1 as well?I find it unbalanced to have it at all. A sneak attack is similar to a critical strike: Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Undead do not have vital spots. It should not be a spell at all -- neither arcane nor divine.
hottchixplaydndtoo 04-22-06, 05:36 PM	Why would you want the spell when you could have the feat? I have the feat with one of my high level rogues.... it does not do full damage it does d4's instead of d6's but is still helpful and you dont have to bother with casting a spell. :bounce:
Pegasos989 04-22-06, 06:00 PM	Undead do not have vital spots. It should not be a spell at all -- neither arcane nor divine. Hey, why would they not have vital spots? Have you seen Night/Dawn/Day of the living dead -movies? In those you can kill zombies by hitting their brains, so I see no problem with rogue shooting at the brains with sneak attack. Also the vampires can be staked so, for example, rogue trying to scratch the heart with a crossbow could be allowed by DM if he thinks it would work. However this makes rogues much more efficient than meant, so there must be something to avoid this. A feat, a spell or similar thing doesn't sound too unlogical to me. I could allow it as a feat if rogue would take enough knowledge ranks in religion or similar to know stuff about undead.
Seeker95 04-22-06, 08:27 PM	Hey, why would they not have vital spots? Have you seen Night/Dawn/Day of the living dead -movies? In those you can kill zombies by hitting their brains, so I see no problem with rogue shooting at the brains with sneak attack.I've seen the movies. I've also seen plenty of other movies that have a tangential relationship to fantasy fiction. But we are playing a game called Dungeons & Dragons, not B-Movie Horror d20 RPG. You can't critical undead creatures. You can't sneak attack undead creatures.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-22-06, 08:42 PM	You also can't will 20ft radius balls of fire into existence either. There is a reason it is called Magic. On the arcane side, you get the parallel spell to SA constructs. It's a tradeoff. Or in the case of a UMDing rogue, an advantage.
KirkBb 04-22-06, 08:48 PM	Why would you want the spell when you could have the feat? I have the feat with one of my high level rogues.... it does not do full damage it does d4's instead of d6's but is still helpful and you dont have to bother with casting a spell. :bounce: Where is this feat located? A rogue in my group is feeling left out because of all the undead and constructs I keep throwing at them (I don't think they have fought a living foe in like 2 lvls, and probably won't for a while) It would really help out.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-22-06, 08:52 PM	The easier thing to do would be to mix in more living creatures, and stop being a jerk to the rogue. Either that, or make sure his non-combat role is given time to shine. 30 encounters without a SA isn't a game to a rogue, it's torture, worse than telling the Barbarian's player that the game will consist of tense negociations between planar factions with Permanent Sanctuary effects.
Engilbrand 04-23-06, 12:27 AM	The classes are balanced on the ideas that they get to use their abilities. Though rogues are skill-monkies, it sounds like you're using combat encounters. The rogue is now worth LESS than the other characters. It is unfair to him as a player, especially if you've been through 2 levels like this. I know I'd be ******. "What? Skeletons again? Let me pull out my worthless weapon and deal 4 damage. Woohoo. 3d6 down the drain."
Vaelan 04-23-06, 12:41 AM	Undead do not have vital spots. It should not be a spell at all -- neither arcane nor divine. Have you read the given justification for the spell? It doesn't seem like it, which makes your objections seem rather meaningless.
runestar 04-23-06, 01:14 AM	Undead do not have vital spots. It should not be a spell at all -- neither arcane nor divine. That's why they lumped all the stuff that does not make logical sense into 1 category termed magic. ;)
Zitchas 04-23-06, 02:16 AM	A sneak attack is a bit more than simply poking at a particularly vulnerable spot, it's knowing how to make an attack in just the right way to do the most possible damage. It's a bit trickier, since you have to do it just right (thus it requiring the sneaking part), but very effective. In that line of sight, I consider undead to be creatures that, since they are dead, have almost no vulnerable spots, probably none, really, in the traditional sense. Hence the requirement of a feat or spell (I'd be highly intrested to know where that feat is, too. I thought there was one, but I haven't been able to find it yet. Actually, I thought it was a feat before it was a spell). From what I can tell of the spell, it's essentially sheathing your weapon in positive energy, enabling it to essentially damage the negative energy arcane construct that keeps the undead moving/"alive"/etc at the same time as it's cutting the flesh. Whereas a simple sword thrust would just damage it a bit (and a normal sneak attack wouldn't work since there's nothing there particularly vulnerable) a positive energy sneak attack would instead be hitting some of the "inner" workings of the undead. It's just on a more spiritual plane than normal, thus the feat/spell requirement. I really don't consider a feat that de-uselessizes a core class ability to be useless. The spell doesn't let a rogue sneak attack everything, just undead. In a way, it's a possibility to let them take a meaningfull part in the campaign instead of getting to spend that particular session stuck at the back acting as a low-power meatsshield for the spellcasters.
Blazenblue 04-23-06, 08:51 AM	I allow my Arcane Trickster to use Disrupt undead as a sneak attack on undead, he only has a few chances to do so a Day so he makes them count. Crypts are horrible for theives; the doors are stone without locks so the barbarian does the 'Lock picking', the enemies are not sneakable and scouting ahead only ever results in a facefull of negative levels.