Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gannaid 10-13-04, 06:59 AM	If I have a wizard use eschew materials, still spell, and silent spell all on one spell do I still need to cast on the defence since no one can tell I am casting until the is completed? What if a fighter has readied an attack if I cast a spell will he get his readied action even though he cant detect the casting until the spell has already been completed?
Waylander 10-13-04, 07:05 AM	Yes if it has a material component or a focus... they can see them use it. No otherwise... they will see them concentrating on something. You still have to concentrate... fighters who have been in combat with or against mages will obviously recognize this after a few encounters.
Will Brandiman 10-13-04, 07:12 AM	I would say no but I'm not sure if the RAW agree with me. Quite simply, if there are no gestures, no material components and no vocals then I really don't see that anyone would be able to recognise that a spell is being cast. Maybe with a Knowledge - Arcane or Spellcraft roll? Or perhaps Sense Motive?
RaspK FOG 10-13-04, 07:31 AM	If there is no way to discern spellcasting (books say that you have to see or hear components to recognise a spell being cast), well, nope, no need, no readied action... But expect the fighter to attack you continuously if he survives! :D
brum 10-13-04, 07:33 AM	But remember that to cast a spell still requires (deep) concentration no-matter what components that are used. So even if a mage casts a spell without any gestures or vocals he still needs to concentrate and thereby letting his guard down, hence the AoO. A fighter who takes advantage of the AoO doesn't necessarily understand what is going on but he clearly sees the robe-like figure being offguard. An interesting similarity is the use of spell-like abilties. A creature using such an ability doesn't need any spell-components to complete the spell. But that same creature does provoke an AoO!
Seeker95 10-13-04, 08:30 AM	I would just bump the DC on the spellcraft check by: 1. 5 if any one of the components is missing. 2. 15 if two of the components are missing. 3. 25 if all three of the components are missing. To detect a silent stilled spell with no material components would just plain be tough (and impressive).
RaspK FOG 10-13-04, 09:03 AM	But remember that to cast a spell still requires (deep) concentration no-matter what components that are used. So even if a mage casts a spell without any gestures or vocals he still needs to concentrate and thereby letting his guard down, hence the AoO. A fighter who takes advantage of the AoO doesn't necessarily understand what is going on but he clearly sees the robe-like figure being offguard. An interesting similarity is the use of spell-like abilties. A creature using such an ability doesn't need any spell-components to complete the spell. But that same creature does provoke an AoO!It is obvious you misunderstood me: I referred to the readied action thing; your point on spell-like abilities being on par with spells thus cast is entirely logical, but not in contradiction with my statement. ;)
brum 10-13-04, 09:20 AM	True, my mistake. But my argument was mainly directed towards gannaid's first question, though.
Saiph 10-13-04, 12:09 PM	Readied action: I'd argue no (for the reasons you stated), I raised just such a question on the 5' step thread. You can't tell what he's doing. For all you know, he's trying not to vomit, or has constipation (if he shows anything at all). AoO: Yep, I'd allow it. Why? Because he's going to be distracted, he isn't going to keep a close eye on the fighter's weapon. The fighter is going to notice this hesitation/distraction (as he would in any opponent) and take a swing at him.
Finarin Panjoro 10-13-04, 01:14 PM	I'd say yes to both the AoO and the readied action. If you readied an action to strike him if he casts a spell then you already know he's a spell caster. If you see him concentrating intently you're still going to suspect he's casting, so your action would trigger. He drops his guard to concentrate so there's the AoO. I also agree the Spellcraft DC to identify the spell would be extremely high (+25 sounds about right).
green_yawgmoth 10-13-04, 01:47 PM	I would just bump the DC on the spellcraft check by: 1. 5 if any one of the components is missing. 2. 15 if two of the components are missing. 3. 25 if all three of the components are missing. To detect a silent stilled spell with no material components would just plain be tough (and impressive).Jesus man, that's a bit high. Tome & Blood says that it's +2 if one is missing, +4 if both are missing. And yes, there really is no mistaking the level of concentration needed for spellcasting. http://photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif