Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Old_One 05-31-04, 12:43 PM	I need help priceing an wondurus item. Tabelt of teleportation: This metal tablet, the size of an A4 paper sheat, is carved with what seams a scrol of teleport on one side and is compleatly blank on the other. It alows a character to teleport him self and up to 3 other characters or up to 450 lbs of eqiupemnt (as a 9th lvl caster) once per day. In order for anyone to activate the Tabelt of teleportation a picture of the desiered location must be painted on the blank side of the tablet. Depending on how well the location is painted (a Profesion (painting) skill check). The spell functiones acording to the 4 levels of Familiarity. the DC'c are 25 for Very familiar, 20 for Studied carefully, 15 for Seen casually, 10 for Viewed once, any less and it is False destination. It can be used for 50 times, before the blank side is to begines to show signs of wear and can no longer be drawen upon. This is my calculation so far: (9*5 for the teleport spell) *(1800 for Command word activeted) *(2 for No space limitation) / (2 for 50 charges) /(5 for one use per day) = 8100 gp It seams a bit low for a wand of teleport wich it basicly is, on the other hand it should get some price reductione for the whole painting thing wich i havent even calculated in yet. My questions are: a) How should the Profesion (painting) check be calculated in the price if at all? b) Am I getting any parts of the formula wrong, or am I calculating something wrong?
The_Ditto 05-31-04, 02:06 PM	Remember that those pricing guidelines are just that .. guidelines ... if you're DM (or you?) thinks it should cost more, increase the cost ... if you think it's worth less (due to the profession drawing ..) then reduce it ... they're just guides ... But you're right to compare it to a Wand of Teleport ... ask yourself if somebody would rather have 1 or the other simply because of the price ... (Assume they could use both ..) ... Because the Wand is a spell trigger item, it will likely be cheaper .. (after all, only a spell caster with Teleport can use it - whereas, this tablet, anyone can use - ignoring the drawing check for now ..) If you ask for my personnel opinion, it should be priced a little more expensive than a wand .. despite the drawing option ..
Old_One 05-31-04, 02:49 PM	Well I do think that most wizardds or even fighters would rather choose something that doesn't requier drawing. And the DCs are quite high. And not to mention you can use a wand for as many times a day you wish.
The_Ditto 05-31-04, 03:12 PM	Originally posted by Old_One And not to mention you can use a wand for as many times a day you wish. oh yeah, forgot about that ... :blush:
Cardinal Teplin 05-31-04, 03:20 PM	Use the painting DC check in place of the familiarity roll. It doesn't matter how well you know a place, just how accurately you can draw it. I'd say this should be much cheaper than a wand of teleport. It takes ages to use, needs a skill to activate, is more limited, etc. etc. etc. 8000 does seem low though...
Old_One 05-31-04, 03:25 PM	Actuely after I rechecked my math (for the 5th time :blush: ) I found the mistake. It is 16,200gp and 8,100 to craft + 648 xp. And Cardinal Teplin you realy think that the craft could replace the random roll?? Seams it should be a bit more expensive taht way, dupliacating a 7th lvl spell and all?
Cardinal Teplin 05-31-04, 03:37 PM	Hm.. Maybe make a failed painting check give a negative modifier on the random roll? I would personally be happy with the check replacing the random roll, as long as the DC check was so extremely high as to make success less likely than before unless you had a wonderful artist at your disposal. And remember you can't take 10 or 20 becasue you have to acitivate the tablet to check the accuracy of your picture. But that's really a DM call, and not all DMs think the way I do.
Old_One 05-31-04, 03:48 PM	Well actely I do. Our gnome sorc considers himself some waht of an artist, with the ranks to prove it something like 13 or 16 of them. Hope my DM aproves of this. *wink, wink nudge, nudge*:angel:
hekker 05-31-04, 03:55 PM	How should the Profesion (painting) check be calculated in the price if at all? The 3.0 DMG says that a magic item that relies on a skill or class ability should get a 10 % reduction (could also be more or less, but it is between 5-15 % . I don't know excactly by heart)
Edward 05-31-04, 08:24 PM	If it was only the drawing requirement then more expensive than the STAFF (wands only up to 4th level remember) but it is also 1/day. So it should be cheaper. Other factors to consider. I assume once the picture is drawn you role mischance with that level of reliability. If so it is much less acuret. (this is what I am assuming) If you meant the profession painting check to determine on target it doesn’t take mush to always be on target. Painting a picture s not a standard action 5-10 min probably, it will not be useful in combat. The best result achievable on the cheque should be your actual level of knowledge. Eg a master painter that has herd of a great city called warterdeep may paint a masterpiece but it won’t necerceraly look anything like warterdeep so he still roles on the line for somewhere you have A vague description of. All those things considered I would price it somewhere in the order of 10000GP. This was calculated by comparing its ease of use to a staff of Tp and the assumption that the 1/5th price for 1/day was not intended to work for charged items. If you think it was then the price is closer to 5000gp these prices are also reasonable when compared to the price of boots of TP. They don’t include the unslotted item mark-up beacons painting precludes holding a weapon. You may consider it in need of the unusual slot mark-up I don’t have my book hear to determine if it applies. Note I jugged ti to be somewhat less useful than the staff of TP before applying the 1/day limit. Edward
Nom 06-01-04, 12:35 AM	Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin And remember you can't take 10 or 20 becasue you have to acitivate the tablet to check the accuracy of your picture.In general, you can take 10 on the check. You take your time and draw a "good enough" (roll of 10) picture. If you're trying to draw the picture during combat (or under similar distraction), you can't take 10. Note that simply trying to do it fast doesn't necessarily invalidate taking 10, but should impose a penalty on the check whether you take 10 or not. Obviously you can't take 20 because there's no opportunity for retries if you fail.
Ehelonna 06-01-04, 02:59 AM	Originally posted by Old_One This is my calculation so far: (9*5 for the teleport spell) *(1800 for Command word activeted) *(2 for No space limitation) / (2 for 50 charges) /(5 for one use per day) = 8100 gp Compare this to the cost of an item that allows the use of teleport 1/day with no other limitations... 16,200 gp. There is also the Cape of the Mountebank that allows Dimension Door (short range teleport) 1/day for 10,080 gp. Getting a 50% discount beacause it will run out is worth a discount... the rules say 50%. Originally posted by Old_One a) How should the Profesion (painting) check be calculated in the price if at all?I think that should be craft (painting) since you are producing an item of value. Profession deals with occupations that generate services rather than actual physical goods. The rules give a 10% discount to items that require a skill check to use. I would give a greater discount to this item because I would not allow the use of the item as a standard action... how much can you draw in 6 seconds??? If you allow the destination to be drawn in advance, the 10% discount would be reasonable... Increasing the effective casting time to 1-10 minutes would warrant a further 10-20% discount.
Old_One 06-01-04, 08:56 AM	Ok so let me go over the math agai caster lvl * spell level * command word activeted * unlosted item / once per day / 50 charges limit - craft (painting) 9*5*1800*2/5/2=16200-10%=14580 gp (7290gp & 583xp to carft) I don't think the futher dicount for incresed casting is needed since the picture can be drawn before hand,so the only bounus from this is in the fact you can take a 10-20 min sketch of a loacation and if you roll good enogh (with taking 10 but not 20) you are considred as beeing very familiar with the loaction in question. Of course the DM should rol for the check so you dont know how good you did, maybe you forgot to draw a window or got the dimenson of the table wrong. by Edward The best result achievable on the cheque should be your actual level of knowledge. This goes withot saying, thank for clearing it up ok thanks for all the help I think I can take this to my DM :)
BlackSmith 06-01-04, 10:21 AM	i writed almost 2h and when i hit the send button i was logged out. and because of the glorious explorer i can't get my writings restored. now i get to home and try againg using mozilla. but i know you will like what i have in mind. just wait.
Loren Pechtel 06-02-04, 01:29 AM	What I don't understand is the x2 for non-slot. You paint on it--it's using your hands. Thus it's slotted, the same as weapons, wands etc.
Old_One 06-02-04, 08:37 AM	No, no see it like this.... hey actuely that's right, I gues I was compering it to the boots and got caried away. Thanks for poitning it out to me Loren Pechtel And BlackSmith, thats why I always write my long posts in notepad and copy/paste it when I got it all down... looking forward to your input
BlackSmith 06-02-04, 10:58 AM	lets get the price right. first of all its not command word item (you are drawing on it, not singing or anything) thus use "use activated" base price. Also it makes the item awailable to everyone, witch is just grand. 9*5*2000 = 81k secondly is either charged OR Xnumbers per day, not both. i calculating for two uses per day. to get there and back. 2(uses)*81k(base price)/5 = 32k and yes it is unslotted (only place i could figure that it would even remotely fit is shield slot where it would be bashed brken at first opportunity and would still be 1.5 times the base price as it violates its slot affinity) 32k*2 =64k because it needs skill to use it it gets the 10% discount 64k-6,4k = 57,6k if you want just a one shot per day version it would be cheaper but i would take the more expencive as the cheaper can get you to trouble but not away from. big flaw IMO. 1*81/5 = 16,2 *2 = 32,4 *90% = 29.16k so it is either 57,6k for there much better one or 29,16k for the inferior one. :teach: either one i suggest this kind of use/rules for doing/using the pic. after one minutes drawing/painting the picture of the destination you can make drawing/painting check against DC 40. If you manage to beat the DC 40 you can throw your arriwing point by the worst familiarity "false destination". Also for each 5 that you fail from the DC, worsens your arriwing point category by one. This DC can be lowered by using more time to draw/paint the pic thus every minute used after the first will lessen the DC by one as you sharpen the pic and get more details to it. For every colour you use to colour the pic additional to the first one, you can get one stage higher in the familiarity tabel (using three colours gives you access to "seen casualy" familiarity) But each additional colour you use, will also double time to get reduction to the drawing/painting DC (as it is harder to work with many colours). So using five colours for 32 mintes ((five colours 1*2*2*2*2=16) *2) you can try to beat DC 38 to get best chance to arraiwe to the exactly point you want. If you fail the DC by 15 or more you still throw the arraing point by the "wived once" category. Using only two colours for the same 32 minutes (two colours 1*2=2) *16) you could try to beat the DC 24 but best familiarity you could try would be "wieved once". and if you fail the DC by 5 or more you end up to a "false destination". bit complex but good after you practice for couple of times. :behold:
The_Ditto 06-02-04, 12:18 PM	Originally posted by BlackSmith secondly is either charged OR Xnumbers per day, not both. i calculating for two uses per day. to get there and back. Really?? That's funny, I never saw anything in the book restricting this .. Agreed .. there are no items (that I'm aware of at least) that currently mix these two options .. but I see nothing preventing them from being combined. Not like (for example) - Single use, use-activated, 1/day ... :bored: those are definitely contradictory ... in that if it's single use, the 1/day restriction isn't much of a restriction ... But if it has 50 charges, then being able to only use it 1/day is a restriction .. which is perfectly valid .. Of course - Blacksmith has a point if you think about where between 1 charge and 50 is the line ... :confused: ... but if we're talking 50 charges .. I don't see a big issue .. Originally posted by BlackSmith after one minutes drawing/painting the picture of the destination In my honest opinion, I wouldn't increase the cost of this thing x2 (due to unslotted), if it takes a minute to activate it!! :angel: The purpose of an unslotted item being more expensive is that you get the benefit of it while it's in your backpack, strapped to your belt, etc. (ie Luckstone ... Ioun Stone) ... I really wouldn't charge the x2 for unslotted .. that's unreasonable.
tarkin 06-02-04, 04:56 PM	I would NOT give it a price reduction for requireing skill to use. You can always pay someone else to paint the scene. People always abuse the heck out of those things and it is rarely appropriate in the first place. On top of that you are also doing the 1x/day trick, another abusive thing. Forget about trying to make something cheap enough to afford, try to make it a good item. 1x/day is usually appropriate only if an item has multiple powers. Look at Figurines of Wonderous Powers. Those are basically summoining spells usable x/day. They are priced as if they were a full summoning, with NO "discount" for being restricted to a specific creature. Price magic items based on the power needed to achieve the effect, not based on other crap. To get a reduction in price you should accept a reduction in usefullness. That said, you should have started with the established magic items, not the general rules typically used by munchkins looking for a cheat. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Compare with Boots/Helm of Teleportation Boots (slotted item) cost 49,000 for 3x day, self only. Helmet (slotted item) cost 73,500 gp for 3xday, as spell. Comparing it to these objects, I think we can forget about the unsloted item as long as it takes one minute or more to activate. (1/2 price as compared to those items, but not-slotted). Your assuming you can take other people, but are only doing it once per day. As a DM I would give you the 1x/day discount but nothing for the painting because you can hire a painter. Or you could get it 3xday with a 10% discount for painting (as you will only be able to hire the painter for the first jump) for a multi-person traveler. Restricting travel to the owner cuts the base price by 1/3 normally, but that requires the traveller to be the artist, so I would make the total reduction 1/2 of 73,500 instead of 1/3. I would therefore price it 66,150 for 3x/day, multi-people with 1 minute activation painting check. 24,500 for 1x/day multi-people with 1 minute activation paintingcheck. 36,750 for 3x/day, artist only with 1 minute activation paintingcheck. 12,250 for 1x/day, artist only with 1 minute activaton paintingcheck. These pricing structures seem reasonable to me. (and yes, they should not have both charges and x/day - that was a bad idea). -------------------------------------------- OR you could base it on a Charged item. Price it as a wand, even though it is too high level. 50 charges, each charge duplicates a Teleportation spell. "User must make Painting check" is exactly equivlent in my mind to "user must have spell on list". Then 50 charges = 375 x 9 x 5 = 16,875.
Veton 06-02-04, 04:58 PM	Originally posted by Old_One Depending on how well the location is painted (a Profesion (painting) skill check). The spell functiones acording to the 4 levels of Familiarity. the DC'c are 25 for Very familiar, 20 for Studied carefully, 15 for Seen casually, 10 for Viewed once, any less and it is False destination. Shouldn't it be the other way around since it would be easier to draw something you are very familiar with?
Edward 06-02-04, 11:44 PM	I had assumed several things that seem to be considered wrong. The act of painting causes the activation. Thus you can’t hire a painter. If you did hire a painter you would need one with familiarity of the zone you are going to. (my statement “The best result achievable on the cheque should be your actual level of knowledge.” witch Old_One ha also being taking as an assumption sufficiently obvious as to not need stating (I however have les faith in the high intelligence of muchkins)). This means finding a painter will be very difficult requiring a gather information cheque several hours of legwork and the significant chance that nobody in town knows the place you want to go and can paint (this is reasonable even in the largest of plainer metropolises and any destination that is not VERY common ). I also assumed that 50 charges and 1/day could be staked but did not result in 1/10 the price. (1/5*1/2) instead I used a figure closer to 1/6) I do like the implications of the painter however as it means you can go somewhere you have never more than heard of if it is advantages to the plot. Also you may need to decide wether to use the (not very good looking) picture you paid good money for from the only person you could find that knows the place or take the time to travel by foot. Especially with a moderately time dependant adventure. Edward
Mr.Waesel 06-03-04, 06:05 AM	charges and uses/day cannot be combined, IIRC.
BlackSmith 06-03-04, 07:37 AM	Originally posted by tarkin People always abuse the heck out of those things and it is rarely appropriate in the first place. On top of that you are also doing the 1x/day trick, another abusive thing. Forget about trying to make something cheap enough to afford, try to make it a good item. 1x/day is usually appropriate only if an item has multiple powers. .... I would therefore price it 66,150 for 3x/day, multi-people with 1 minute activation painting check. 24,500 for 1x/day multi-people with 1 minute activation paintingcheck. 36,750 for 3x/day, artist only with 1 minute activation paintingcheck. 12,250 for 1x/day, artist only with 1 minute activaton paintingcheck. ... OR you could base it on a Charged item. Price it as a wand, even though it is too high level. 50 charges, each charge duplicates a Teleportation spell. "User must make Painting check" is exactly equivlent in my mind to "user must have spell on list". Then 50 charges = 375 x 9 x 5 = 16,875. first you talk about abjusing to get good items for low cost and then you slap IMO realy too low price for a such item. are talking about the first prices or mine? and no, i would not give the wand option for this item. anyone can paint, skill or no skill. casting a spell from a wand is realy NOT something that every one can do. so either go with the wand prices or make it so that every one can use it. but if you go by the wand way, why not buy awand of teleportion that is at least half the price. and if you realy THINK, you can't realy make anything even remotely precise work in one minute for a A4 paper. trust me or try it yourself. in one minutes job you would get "false destination" for as the pic is not even near to be as detailed to use it to any better destination checks. remeber now what is the items idea. to make a pic and the better pic the better the landing result.
Old_One 06-03-04, 11:40 AM	Ok so in your opinion do you think I can say that the price of the item is 13,000 gp - it doesnt have any charges - that the painting system works like I stated in my original post (BlackSmith I like your system but it is a bit to complex) and - that it is usable once per day - The paint check takes 5-10 minutes, this is efectivly the casting time - that I can't take 10 or 20, becouse the act of painting trigers the spell so if you are interupted you are imiditly ported under the false destenation check - The item is usable once per day, - that the paint can remain on the tablet for a limited period of time, say 2-4 days. - if I use difrent colors and quolity brushes (50 gp for each picture, the price of masterwork tools) I get not only the +2 bonus for using MW paint and brushes (the two don't stack) but also a -3 reduction to the DC - The act of painting causes the activation. Thus you can’t hire a painter Does this seem OK? I know it is difrent from my original idea, but I tried to take in considiration everything I heard so far. Also I would like to keep any mentioning of the "munckinism" out of this, there is no need for it and I have seen how the meer mention of this word can turn into a decent flame war. So peapole lets not go there. If I have left that impresion on anybody it is only couse I have never used the item creation rules, one of the blessings/curses of mostly DM-ing :angel:
Loren Pechtel 06-03-04, 11:35 PM	Originally posted by BlackSmith [B]lets get the price right. first of all its not command word item (you are drawing on it, not singing or anything) thus use "use activated" base price. Also it makes the item awailable to everyone, witch is just grand. Why? Command word looks better than use activated to me. Use activated is implicit in the operation of the item, this requires a specific time-using action on the user's part to activate. The mere fact that it's not a spoken word seems like a lesser change to me. secondly is either charged OR Xnumbers per day, not both. i calculating for two uses per day. to get there and back. I see no reason these are incompatible. and yes it is unslotted (only place i could figure that it would even remotely fit is shield slot where it would be bashed brken at first opportunity and would still be 1.5 times the base price as it violates its slot affinity) Just because the books suffered the oversight of not listing the hands as a slot doesn't mean they aren't one. An item that you have to hold in your hand to use is cheaper than the same item that you can just wear and use.
BlackSmith 06-04-04, 07:01 AM	Originally posted by Loren Pechtel Why? Command word looks better than use activated to me. Use activated is implicit in the operation of the item, this requires a specific time-using action on the user's part to activate. The mere fact that it's not a spoken word seems like a lesser change to me. from SRD Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed. Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory. Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character’s possession (on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case. Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself are you DRAWING the picture or TELLING what it should look like? if you are TELLING, the the item is not the same. we are drawing the pic here, and the picture sets it off. I see no reason these are incompatible. because they use different pricing & making method. charged items are priced according to a staff or a wand and made by different feat than wonderous items. if you want wand that casts one spell at day and has 50 charges, you first calculate the base price by wand formula and then apply the x/day reduction if wanted. if you want a wonderous item that has X/day and is charged, you first caclucate its base price and then apply the x/day reduction. there is no formula for charged wonderous items, nor any other items except wands and staffs. if you are making wand staff, use those pricing rules. if something else, use the according rules, just like in "Table: Summary of Magic Item Creation Costs" at "MagicItemsI" in SRD says. and if you can somehow convince yourself that the wonderous item is a wand, then you have to break the wand rules also SRD CRAFT WAND [ITEM CREATION] Prerequisite: Caster level 5th. Benefit: You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know so forget that charged/wand way, you are breaking too many rules. Just because the books suffered the oversight of not listing the hands as a slot doesn't mean they aren't one. An item that you have to hold in your hand to use is cheaper than the same item that you can just wear and use. [/B] yes it does, our just trying to get the price reduced even more. SRD Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It’s possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as twelve magic items at the same time. However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body. A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which place on the body the item is worn. • One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head • One pair of eye lenses or goggles on or over the eyes • One amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck • One vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso • One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt) • One belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor) • One cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor) • One pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists • One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands • One ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand) • One pair of boots or shoes on the feet Of course, a character may carry or possess as many items of the same type as he wishes. However, additional items beyond those listed above have no effect. and how would you draw on a pair of gloves? hand is a slot where you hold something. here is no time involved to keep something on "hand". sure you could make "gloves of teleportation" but its price would still be 1.5 as it does not have the rightpower to its slot. SRD Uncustomary space limitation3 Multiply entire cost by 1.5 Helm of teleportation .... 3 See Body Slot Affinities, below. ... Body Slot Affinity Headband, helmet Mental improvement, ranged attacks Hat Interaction Phylactery Morale, alignment Eye lenses, goggles Vision Cloak, cape, mantle Transformation, protection Amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, scarab Protection, discernment Robe Multiple effects Shirt Physical improvement Vest, vestment Class ability improvement Bracers Combat Bracelets Allies Gloves Quickness Gauntlets Destructive power Belt Physical improvement Boots Movement making a boots would work but i would like someone to beat the DC to write enough deatiled place to arraiwe to a BOOTS to get familiarity "very familiar". maybe DC 30-40? 40-50? don't try to wingle good item to lower its actual value. it kills its taste and fun. thats why ring of regeneration is 90k, not 9k.