abilities regained by awaken undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

abilities regained by awaken undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mirror-Image
08-17-06, 06:02 AM "awaken undead" in the spell compendium gives the undead creature its "racial abilities" back. Now the question is what are racial abilities ? In the spell description scent and poison are mentioned.

Do the following abilities belong to racial abilities ?

1) tana'ri traits
2) natural armor (for skelletons it is normaly a fixed number depending on the size not the creatures natural armor )
3) Spell Resistance, DR
4) Feats

And as a side question i would like to know if outsiders leave a corpse if they are slain on the material plane.

Thanks
Witch
08-17-06, 07:07 AM Only racial bonus feats, imo. Not gained feats.
ninja1
08-17-06, 03:08 PM I don't have my books in front of me and my dry eyes are going crosseye'd looking at the SRD...

I believe Racial Abilites refer to Special Abilities aquired due to being a member of a specific race and not those gained by class levels and such.

While it is important to note that Awakened Undead do not regain skills or feats that they once had, I am a vehement supporter of the notion that the spell makes the once-unintelligent undead into Intelligent Undead, and as such they gain skill points and feats as per the creature type description for Undead.

And to answer your final question, Yes and No.

An outsider with a corporeal form does leave a corpse, while a globe of light or whisp of essence would just dissipate.

However, a corporeal outsider brought to our plane by a summoning spell vanishes when destroyed, while an outsider brought to our plane by a calling spell does leave a corpse.

Also, if the corporeal ousider travels to our plane himself via portal, plane shifting, or other such means of transportation is solidly here as well.
SephDragoon
08-17-06, 03:16 PM actually, consider the outsider type for a moment, outsider's bodies and souls are one, but when they die on the material plane, they are sent back to the plane they are from.

This would mean that they COULD not leave a corpse under any circumstance unless they were clain on their own plane. The reason is, their souls and bodies cannot be seperated, under any circumstance. They could not exist in their own plane after being slain if they left a corpse.
ninja1
08-17-06, 03:30 PM SephDragoon, that's not exactly true. Their bodies and souls are one, yes.

Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. So, if no soul is set loose, then their corpse just sits and rots.

However, what happens to their remains is impacted by how they got here in the first place.

Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again. If you could quote something that contradicts the way I read this, I would appreciate it if you could set me straight.
:)
cwslyclgh
08-17-06, 03:35 PM actually, consider the outsider type for a moment, outsider's bodies and souls are one, but when they die on the material plane, they are sent back to the plane they are from.

This would mean that they COULD not leave a corpse under any circumstance unless they were clain on their own plane. The reason is, their souls and bodies cannot be seperated, under any circumstance. They could not exist in their own plane after being slain if they left a corpse.

You are making assumptions not spelled out in the rules... but when they die on the material plane, they are sent back to the plane they are from.the rules make no mention of this at all, excpet in regards to summoning spells and effects where it makes clear that the outsider was never "realy" there in the first place.

They could not exist in their own plane after being slain if they left a corpse.

because a (non native subtype) outsider's body and soul are the same thing, it could not exist at all on its home plane when slain, by killing the body you have killed the soul as well... this means that slain outsiders do not return to thier own plane to become petitioners or anything of the like, when the body is slain the soul is dead, there is no need for it to return anyplace... it is simply dead.
Damned slayer
08-17-06, 03:40 PM how do you actually enconter an outsider that isnt summoned/called
Gate is a calling spell
And dont remember where/when I read it but it was like an outsider couldnt voluntarly comes to material plane by its own will otherwise they would just come kill and torture everyone on the plane...

Correct me if I'm wrong
cwslyclgh
08-17-06, 03:51 PM And dont remember where/when I read it but it was like an outsider couldnt voluntarly comes to material plane by its own will otherwise they would just come kill and torture everyone on the plane...that doesn't appear any place in the rules. many outsiders have access to spells and spell like abilities that would allow them to come to the material plane if they so chose... that they chose not to is an indication of how little the outsiders generaly think of the material plane.

how do you actually enconter an outsider that isnt summoned/called
Gate is a calling spellthe vast majority of outsiders you encounter on the matieral plane are summoned or called, however they are different effects, summoned creatures are not realy present, and can't realy die being returned to thier own plane if "slain". called creatures are realy there, and if slain they are dead.... nothing about calling effects suggest that the bodies vanish afterwards.
Damned slayer
08-17-06, 03:59 PM Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.5 Magic Overview, Conjuration Description
Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.

i'd say this is automaticly triggered when it would be slain

and the when stands for over than 10years lol might be rule / reading book or whatever other things since end 1st and all 2nd ed
cwslyclgh
08-17-06, 04:07 PM The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible

i'd say this is automaticly triggered when it would be slain

you could say that all you want, but it doesn't make it supported by the rules.
ninja1
08-17-06, 04:22 PM Damned slayer, I agree with cwslyclgh.

In the forums, we commonly refer to RAW (Rules As Written).

You can speculate all you want, but if it is not clearly defined in print, then it is not RAW. Anything not RAW is a house rule, which is perfectly fine to have but it is not beneficial to open discussions IMHO.

As to your question about "how do you actually enconter an outsider that isnt summoned/called", here are a few visiting outsiders (names from the SRD) that may decide to pay you a visit on the good old material plane:

Demon, Bebilith:
Plane Shift (Su): This ability affects only the bebilith. It is otherwise similar to the spell (caster level 12th).

Angel, Astral Deva:
Spell-Like Abilities: At will— (snip) plane shift (DC 22)

Angel, Planetar:
Spells: Planetars can cast divine spells as 17th-level clerics. (snip)
Typical Cleric Spells Prepared: (snip) plane shift

Angel, Solar:
Spells: Solars can cast divine spells as 20th-level clerics. (snip)
Typical Cleric Spells Prepared: (snip) plane shift
ronyon
08-19-06, 11:58 PM As a genral note on demon harvest as a source for Undead, there is problem presented in the Hordes of the Abyss.
Acording to this source, the bodies of demons that are slain often are consumed/destroyed by their own foulness.
There is a chart, an all that, and the text encourages DMs to make up their own foul endings.
My new favorit source for bodies via calling is the Summon Monster list. Sure it limited but I dont have to beg my DM to allow X creature exists on Y Plane, and thus has a template that makes it suitible for life on Y.
So I can get feindish dire apes and such, but must settle for celestial monkeys. This is less useful when using Awaken Undead, since the Awakened Undead have limits on their Int based on the int of the creatures they where in life.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mirror-Image 08-17-06, 06:02 AM	"awaken undead" in the spell compendium gives the undead creature its "racial abilities" back. Now the question is what are racial abilities ? In the spell description scent and poison are mentioned. Do the following abilities belong to racial abilities ? 1) tana'ri traits 2) natural armor (for skelletons it is normaly a fixed number depending on the size not the creatures natural armor ) 3) Spell Resistance, DR 4) Feats And as a side question i would like to know if outsiders leave a corpse if they are slain on the material plane. Thanks
Witch 08-17-06, 07:07 AM	Only racial bonus feats, imo. Not gained feats.
ninja1 08-17-06, 03:08 PM	I don't have my books in front of me and my dry eyes are going crosseye'd looking at the SRD... I believe Racial Abilites refer to Special Abilities aquired due to being a member of a specific race and not those gained by class levels and such. While it is important to note that Awakened Undead do not regain skills or feats that they once had, I am a vehement supporter of the notion that the spell makes the once-unintelligent undead into Intelligent Undead, and as such they gain skill points and feats as per the creature type description for Undead. And to answer your final question, Yes and No. An outsider with a corporeal form does leave a corpse, while a globe of light or whisp of essence would just dissipate. However, a corporeal outsider brought to our plane by a summoning spell vanishes when destroyed, while an outsider brought to our plane by a calling spell does leave a corpse. Also, if the corporeal ousider travels to our plane himself via portal, plane shifting, or other such means of transportation is solidly here as well.
SephDragoon 08-17-06, 03:16 PM	actually, consider the outsider type for a moment, outsider's bodies and souls are one, but when they die on the material plane, they are sent back to the plane they are from. This would mean that they COULD not leave a corpse under any circumstance unless they were clain on their own plane. The reason is, their souls and bodies cannot be seperated, under any circumstance. They could not exist in their own plane after being slain if they left a corpse.
ninja1 08-17-06, 03:30 PM	SephDragoon, that's not exactly true. Their bodies and souls are one, yes. Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. So, if no soul is set loose, then their corpse just sits and rots. However, what happens to their remains is impacted by how they got here in the first place. Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled. Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again. If you could quote something that contradicts the way I read this, I would appreciate it if you could set me straight. :)
cwslyclgh 08-17-06, 03:35 PM	actually, consider the outsider type for a moment, outsider's bodies and souls are one, but when they die on the material plane, they are sent back to the plane they are from. This would mean that they COULD not leave a corpse under any circumstance unless they were clain on their own plane. The reason is, their souls and bodies cannot be seperated, under any circumstance. They could not exist in their own plane after being slain if they left a corpse. You are making assumptions not spelled out in the rules... but when they die on the material plane, they are sent back to the plane they are from.the rules make no mention of this at all, excpet in regards to summoning spells and effects where it makes clear that the outsider was never "realy" there in the first place. They could not exist in their own plane after being slain if they left a corpse. because a (non native subtype) outsider's body and soul are the same thing, it could not exist at all on its home plane when slain, by killing the body you have killed the soul as well... this means that slain outsiders do not return to thier own plane to become petitioners or anything of the like, when the body is slain the soul is dead, there is no need for it to return anyplace... it is simply dead.
Damned slayer 08-17-06, 03:40 PM	how do you actually enconter an outsider that isnt summoned/called Gate is a calling spell And dont remember where/when I read it but it was like an outsider couldnt voluntarly comes to material plane by its own will otherwise they would just come kill and torture everyone on the plane... Correct me if I'm wrong
cwslyclgh 08-17-06, 03:51 PM	And dont remember where/when I read it but it was like an outsider couldnt voluntarly comes to material plane by its own will otherwise they would just come kill and torture everyone on the plane...that doesn't appear any place in the rules. many outsiders have access to spells and spell like abilities that would allow them to come to the material plane if they so chose... that they chose not to is an indication of how little the outsiders generaly think of the material plane. how do you actually enconter an outsider that isnt summoned/called Gate is a calling spellthe vast majority of outsiders you encounter on the matieral plane are summoned or called, however they are different effects, summoned creatures are not realy present, and can't realy die being returned to thier own plane if "slain". called creatures are realy there, and if slain they are dead.... nothing about calling effects suggest that the bodies vanish afterwards.
Damned slayer 08-17-06, 03:59 PM	Quote: Originally Posted by 3.5 Magic Overview, Conjuration Description Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled. i'd say this is automaticly triggered when it would be slain and the when stands for over than 10years lol might be rule / reading book or whatever other things since end 1st and all 2nd ed
cwslyclgh 08-17-06, 04:07 PM	The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible i'd say this is automaticly triggered when it would be slain you could say that all you want, but it doesn't make it supported by the rules.
ninja1 08-17-06, 04:22 PM	Damned slayer, I agree with cwslyclgh. In the forums, we commonly refer to RAW (Rules As Written). You can speculate all you want, but if it is not clearly defined in print, then it is not RAW. Anything not RAW is a house rule, which is perfectly fine to have but it is not beneficial to open discussions IMHO. As to your question about "how do you actually enconter an outsider that isnt summoned/called", here are a few visiting outsiders (names from the SRD) that may decide to pay you a visit on the good old material plane: Demon, Bebilith: Plane Shift (Su): This ability affects only the bebilith. It is otherwise similar to the spell (caster level 12th). Angel, Astral Deva: Spell-Like Abilities: At will— (snip) plane shift (DC 22) Angel, Planetar: Spells: Planetars can cast divine spells as 17th-level clerics. (snip) Typical Cleric Spells Prepared: (snip) plane shift Angel, Solar: Spells: Solars can cast divine spells as 20th-level clerics. (snip) Typical Cleric Spells Prepared: (snip) plane shift
ronyon 08-19-06, 11:58 PM	As a genral note on demon harvest as a source for Undead, there is problem presented in the Hordes of the Abyss. Acording to this source, the bodies of demons that are slain often are consumed/destroyed by their own foulness. There is a chart, an all that, and the text encourages DMs to make up their own foul endings. My new favorit source for bodies via calling is the Summon Monster list. Sure it limited but I dont have to beg my DM to allow X creature exists on Y Plane, and thus has a template that makes it suitible for life on Y. So I can get feindish dire apes and such, but must settle for celestial monkeys. This is less useful when using Awaken Undead, since the Awakened Undead have limits on their Int based on the int of the creatures they where in life.